The Case for Romance.

[NanoPaladin]

^ Yes. Because you are wasting bandwidth. This conversation was had months ago. Use the search function. You have necro resurrected a dead, dishwater dull argument that is now settled.

 

Your post, sir, is butt-hurt. I am merely pointing it out. If you find that immature, then ponder this: I'm not the one who wants a pretend girlfriend in a bloody videogame.

 

It is apparent that you did not even read the Original post in its entirety then. Also from what I have seen on the forums you have no intellectual additions to any of the threads you are posting in, that said, open your eyes and brain and start reading what people say before opening your virtual mouth. It would do you a great deal of good buddy.

[Silent Winter]

Chill out, it's out of context and only because of that it sounds like Josh does not give a <insert yoour favourite impolite word here>

The actual quote goes like that:

 

Even if 100% of fans wanted them, I don't believe we have the time and other resources to implement them well.  I am not inherently opposed to romances, but I don't want to spend time implementing something I'm not confident we will be able to execute at a high level of quality.

 

Yeah - Josh and the other devs have shown a lot of willingness to listen to the fans on this project.  Some changes have been made (eg Intelligence to Might for damage) and some others rejected (romance) based on a number of factors (mostly: Are they in the budget and will they make the game better?).

In the case of romance - there'll be mods (like the BG1 NPC mod) so it's not totally gone away.

[Messier-31]

I'm not the one who wants a pretend girlfriend in a bloody videogame.

 

We all want a pretend world filled with pretend characters, pretend history... all of it I guess.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't care about love interests in games

[Monte Carlo]

NanoPaladin, the ignore function is your friend. Use it.

[milczyciel]

No idea what happened in former incarnations of "romantic" threads (I know folks you, forum dwellers have a history with that), but it had to be ugly to leave scars that deep. Which is sad, because if anyone, it's Obsidian who is able to make that r word, that trend, that story arc and cliche interesting and meaningful again. Driven by memories of Planescape Torment I will believe that's still possible.

 

We have games talking about rape people, %^*%&* rape being treated by a skill check...

 

I have to drop following those threads - I'm obviously to thin skinned for my own good.

But before I do so, let me quote one of the games that gathered us all here.

 

 

"he who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster"

Edited February 13, 2014 by milczyciel

[BruceVC]

 

 

Josh said they aren't going to do it even if 100% of fans wanted it so it's pretty pointless to make any new threads about it

 

Which actually is a pretty terrible statement for a developer that just had his major project paid by those devoted fans he is so easily dismissing now.

 

Statements like this reduce the chance to get money for new projects dignificantly... not becausr of the romance but because of the bland disrespect towadds the fans.

 

If fans pay your project you better listen to their wishes because they are basically your one and only investor.... telling them that you will ignlre them even if they all have the same opinion on a topic seems ... well

 

Hell no, I'd hate to see the day we get fan made games with the amount of idiots about.

 

 

Don't think about yourself like that Ocelot, I'm confidant you could make a good Mod for PoE

[BruceVC]

^ Yes. Because you are wasting bandwidth. This conversation was had months ago. Use the search function. You have necro resurrected a dead, dishwater dull argument that is now settled.

 

Your post, sir, is butt-hurt. I am merely pointing it out. If you find that immature, then ponder this: I'm not the one who wants a pretend girlfriend in a bloody videogame.

 

Funny thing is he is  wasting bandwidth that you feel the need to contribute towards, so please stop wasting bandwidth with your images. The decision may be over but the debate around Romance in RPG is eternal and interesting

[Hassat Hunter]

Hell no, I'd hate to see the day we get fan made games with the amount of idiots about.

Didn't they call it Dragon Age 2. The game context-less metadata brought about.

 

And it was horrible.

 

Anyway, to the discussion at hand, it's really like the people saying 'why say no to the extra stretchgoals? Are you insane to say no to more content?'

 

No, we aren't. But in order for this content other content or overall quality would suffer. Which is a reason by itself to say no. There is no 100%, 100%. It will be 50%, 50%.

They can counter such by hiring more people in, true. But that costs money. Money that ISN'T there. So unless you throw 50k at Obsidian there's nothing to change it.

And since we know the quality of "romance" in other RPG's and speficially Obsidian RPG's do you think that 50% will be worth it. Or instead put their 100% in the parts or writing where they really shine?

 

The choice isn't that hard for me...

[Karkarov]

No, we aren't. But in order for this content other content or overall quality would suffer. Which is a reason by itself to say no. There is no 100%, 100%. It will be 50%, 50%.

They can counter such by hiring more people in, true. But that costs money. Money that ISN'T there. So unless you throw 50k at Obsidian there's nothing to change it.

And since we know the quality of "romance" in other RPG's and speficially Obsidian RPG's do you think that 50% will be worth it. Or instead put their 100% in the parts or writing where they really shine?

All they have to do is hire a person experienced at writing romance who has a talent for it.  Also doing that costs far less both in time and money than say..... developing an interior for a blacksmith shop.  Funny thing, there won't be one player romance in game, but I bet you there will be 4-5 different blacksmith shop interiors.

 

The "including this would make the rest of the game weaker" is not only false, but out and out fail logic.  How is including an option romance going to weaken the main plot?  Does including romance change the gameplay mechanics of combat?  Did we have to erase a whole faction from the game to include this one romance?  No on all counts. 

 

If they want to argue "we had to prioritize and we felt that this was something we did not consider a big enough issue and now that crunch time is on us we just don't have to time/resources to add it in" then that's fine.  But people saying "having romance in games makes it a weaker game" just sound stupid.

[Tale]

 

But this doesn't change the fact that Obsidian has been involved in Romance implementations in the past that the vast bulk of promancers were happy with, so is it unreasonable to ask them to do it again?

 

People who were happy with...say, the original NWN2 campaign romances must be setting their expectations really, really low. 

 

Do it right or don't it at all, I say.

 

Handmaiden wasn't terrible.

 

Visas Marr, on the other hand, made me wonder about the mental health infrastructure in a galaxy far, far away.

[drake heath]

Let’s turn to science. 

Alright, I gotta stop there, I don't know what's with people on the internet, but trying to justify adding romances in with Science! is just completely silly.

 

It's like the Talimancers who tried to use Science! to find how what their waifu's sweat tasted like.

[Hassat Hunter]

All they have to do is hire a person experienced at writing romance who has a talent for it.  Also doing that costs far less both in time and money than say..... developing an interior for a blacksmith shop.

FALSE.

Unless of course you make romance an out-of-the-blue option after 5 dialogues without any buildup like BioWare.

 

If you want romance you need to pay;

* Writer for a full year (say, 10K)

* Actual gameplay dev(s) to implent said writing (triggers, script, writing) (another 10K)

* If aside from just the writing you want more (say, a quest)... add 30k minimal (for a short one)

 

Total cost; 50k (and as stated, this is a low estimate). Feel free to pay OE that for the romances. I won't stop you... but I doubt you will.

[BruceVC]

 

Let’s turn to science. 

Alright, I gotta stop there, I don't know what's with people on the internet, but trying to justify adding romances in with Science! is just completely silly.

 

It's like the Talimancers who tried to use Science! to find how what their waifu's sweat tasted like.

 

 

Well we can't seem to get you guys to want Romance through the obvious reasons like deeper interaction with your party members and a more immersive RPG experience so you force us to turn to Science...yes Science will reveal the truth  !!!!

[BruceVC]

 

All they have to do is hire a person experienced at writing romance who has a talent for it.  Also doing that costs far less both in time and money than say..... developing an interior for a blacksmith shop.

FALSE.

Unless of course you make romance an out-of-the-blue option after 5 dialogues without any buildup like BioWare.

 

If you want romance you need to pay;

* Writer for a full year (say, 10K)

* Actual gameplay dev(s) to implent said writing (triggers, script, writing) (another 10K)

* If aside from just the writing you want more (say, a quest)... add 30k minimal (for a short one)

 

Total cost; 50k (and as stated, this is a low estimate). Feel free to pay OE that for the romances. I won't stop you... but I doubt you will.

 

 

I would pledge towards a Romance fund, I promise you I would.

[Hassat Hunter]

Get 50K and get back to us...

 

And... Science is useless in gameplay development... it's all about... Finance

[Karkarov]

 

All they have to do is hire a person experienced at writing romance who has a talent for it.  Also doing that costs far less both in time and money than say..... developing an interior for a blacksmith shop.

FALSE.

Unless of course you make romance an out-of-the-blue option after 5 dialogues without any buildup like BioWare.

 

If you want romance you need to pay;

* Writer for a full year (say, 10K)

* Actual gameplay dev(s) to implent said writing (triggers, script, writing) (another 10K)

* If aside from just the writing you want more (say, a quest)... add 30k minimal (for a short one)

 

Total cost; 50k (and as stated, this is a low estimate). Feel free to pay OE that for the romances. I won't stop you... but I doubt you will.

 

What?  You think it takes a full year to write one romance?  There are people who write entire novels in a year dude don't be insane.  We aren't trying to recreate gone with the wind in RPG form, and if that is what it takes for you to think the romance is "okay" then yeah I hope no one ever bothers putting in what you think of as an okay romance.  Implementing the triggers is no different than doing the same thing for a billion other in game things.... like talking to Bob the Generic NPC at the town gate.  You don't need to hire someone just for this one set of triggers and it sure as hell better not take them a year to do it or you need to fire them. 

 

Also no one said anything about a quest, even if there was a quest it could be a BG2 levels and those things were fairly simple, straight forward, and could be completed in less than 30 minutes.  If we are paying someone 30k to write a simple 30 minute quest then this game better add some stretch goals stat cause we are WAYYYYYY over budget by now.  Also I need a new line of work, one where a week of writing and trigger making earns me 30k sounds like a dream come true.

 

Edit: Actually to be fair it might take 2 weeks.... maybe 3.  If you got one person doing all writing and one person doing all triggers and it takes them more than a month to put one romance in game your development either has too much red tape and editing or you hired incompetent people.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Karkarov

[drake heath]

 

All they have to do is hire a person experienced at writing romance who has a talent for it.  Also doing that costs far less both in time and money than say..... developing an interior for a blacksmith shop.

FALSE.

Unless of course you make romance an out-of-the-blue option after 5 dialogues without any buildup like BioWare.

 

If you want romance you need to pay;

* Writer for a full year (say, 10K)

* Actual gameplay dev(s) to implent said writing (triggers, script, writing) (another 10K)

* If aside from just the writing you want more (say, a quest)... add 30k minimal (for a short one)

 

Total cost; 50k (and as stated, this is a low estimate). Feel free to pay OE that for the romances. I won't stop you... but I doubt you will.

 

Nah man, just get some erotic fan fic writers, they'll do it for free.

[BAdler]

All they have to do is hire a person experienced at writing romance who has a talent for it.  Also doing that costs far less both in time and money than say..... developing an interior for a blacksmith shop.  Funny thing, there won't be one player romance in game, but I bet you there will be 4-5 different blacksmith shop interiors.

 

I won't get into the debate about whether romances in these type of CRPGs are inherently good or bad, but I will speak towards costs.

 

You are incorrect if you think that creating a good romance is less of a cost than a blacksmith interior. It would cost more in time and money - by quite a bit. Writing a good romance is not as simple as you think. Also, you are overestimating the ease of hiring a narrative designer that is a great writer, understands RPGs, and is technical enough to use the tools and scripting that is required.

[Karranthain]

Edit: Actually to be fair it might take 2 weeks.... maybe 3.  If you got one person doing all writing and one person doing all triggers and it takes them more than a month to put one romance in game your development either has too much red tape and editing or you hired incompetent people.

 

 

You're operating under an impression that the resources are unlimited. Whereas, in reality, it's a question of allocation.

 

Obsidian simply chose to employ the writer talent, which they have at their disposal, differently - and some people (I count myself among them) are happy with this decision.

[BAdler]

Also, writing in a traditional form is very different than game writing - especially when you take into account branching dialogues. There are lots of constraints placed on our narrative designers.

[Karranthain]

As to the notion that writing romances can be done without harming the rest of the content - Mass Effect 2 proves that to be untrue.

 

Most of the characters in this title have starkingly less to say if you aren't romancing them - vide the infamous Garrus' "I'm in the middle of calibrations".

 

 

[Tale]

 

All they have to do is hire a person experienced at writing romance who has a talent for it.  Also doing that costs far less both in time and money than say..... developing an interior for a blacksmith shop.

FALSE.

Unless of course you make romance an out-of-the-blue option after 5 dialogues without any buildup like BioWare.

 

If you want romance you need to pay;

* Writer for a full year (say, 10K)

* Actual gameplay dev(s) to implent said writing (triggers, script, writing) (another 10K)

* If aside from just the writing you want more (say, a quest)... add 30k minimal (for a short one)

 

Total cost; 50k (and as stated, this is a low estimate). Feel free to pay OE that for the romances. I won't stop you... but I doubt you will.

 

I don't see 10k getting anyone for a year. An amateur for 6 months, maybe, but I wouldn't want to live in California at that pay.

 

Nitpicking aside, I'm a big adversary of too many cooks. Adding a secondary writer to do major character arcs is a complication that gets my eye twitching. We're essentially talking about someone who has no involvement or investment in the character's conception and themes turning around and trying to add new themes without affecting the old. I suppose it's possible. TV shows do an approximation of it all the time since they cycle writers throughout a season, but checking the writing credits I often see show runners do the major character episodes and leave the others for filler.

[Hassat Hunter]

While the prof and actual OE-employee already confirmed it, still want to reply to the comments before that...

What?  You think it takes a full year to write one romance?  There are people who write entire novels in a year dude don't be insane.

YES.
As far as I know novels aren't interactive. Novels don't need to tie in with the rest of something else (the game in this case). Novels probably wouldn't need as many revisions as the romance subplot as the game advances. Additions, alterations, the writer would be needed till the end for a proper implementation.

But we already saw you would be sufficely happy with an "out-of-the-blue" single-conversation romance, since the timelines and costs you projected will give you... just that.

Implementing the triggers is no different than doing the same thing for a billion other in game things.... like talking to Bob the Generic NPC at the town gate.  You don't need to hire someone just for this one set of triggers and it sure as hell better not take them a year to do it or you need to fire them.

But what writer would be capable of doing so. Not many, if any. The additional party wouldn't be primarily hired to supplement the romance writer, true, but a lot of his or her work would be diverted into making the romance workable ingame. Time, money and effort that can be placed elsewhere in game.
If you really *want* to avoid that (to stay true to 'adding romances wont detract from making the game'), you need to hire another person.
Since the goal here is to make a romance addition, and not take away from any part of the other game, yes, that employee's cost will be included in the eventual cost calculation.
(Setting things up can be quite time-consuming, let me tell you that from TSLRCM-experience, even if it's not super-complicated. The more so the more complex convobranches are becoming)

Also no one said anything about a quest, even if there was a quest it could be a BG2 levels and those things were fairly simple, straight forward, and could be completed in less than 30 minutes.

A completion time has no relation at all with the time it would take to add.
I've added 3 simple quests to M4-78EP, all-in-all probably taking, say, 5 minutes each to finish (if not taking into account time walking inbetween quest NPCs). So a total of 15 minutes of extra gameplay.
You want to know how long it took to add that? About 50 hours.
And that's just if one person can handle it, with bigger projects probably it would go over several people, area developer, writer, game developer, potentially even area design.

It's usually the 'simplest' things that take the longest to add to an actual game.
 

Nah man, just get some erotic fan fic writers, they'll do it for free.

Heh, well, we're trying to go here for good-quality romance... not BioWare romance.
Sure, you can lessen the cost severly... but the quality goes down the drain together with the cost.
And in the end you are left with something making the game worse than better, something OE is trying to avoid. And if people really want it in, there's a steep cost to it.

And many posts in this and the other thread made it pretty obvious the people vouching for the romance have no idea of the actual cost, time and effort involved...

 

EDIT:

And while posting a lot of new posts, and even as second devpost.

@ Tale; Guess I was too lenient... okay 100K then. Then you can start talking romances, fans.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[BSoda]

This whole discussion over pricing is kind of pointless. It certainly wasn't budgeting that led to the exclusion of romances.

[Monte Carlo]

One of my jobs is writing. I write novels.

 

I've never done a screenplay but I've written dialogue strings for a few mods. My post here is only marginally about romances, but more about the process of creating content and the technical aspects as I've experienced them. Apologies in advance if I'm teaching anyone to suck eggs.

 

Writing a novel isn't easy, but it's easier than writing a game. Why? Well if I've got two characters having a conversation it's fixed. RPGs, by their very nature are dynamic. Even the smallest change in detail creates a potential domino or butterfly chaos / theory effect around all your subsequent dialogue. I'm sure MCA and the like have tools to track this stuff. I ended up with a giant piece of paper covered in a migraine-inducing dialogue map.

 

So now we already have two issues:

 

1. Writing quality. You want the writing and dialogue to be good (duh) which is one part of the skill-set. You want a writer that can do fantasy, understand the lore, the vibe of the game and company house-style rules, the characters you've been given (because unlike your own novel where you create all your own, as a RPG writer you'll get given characters to work with) and all the rest of it. The reason why so many mods suck (and why the ones that don't stand out) is because this isn't easy.

 

2. Technical ability. If early in the story character 'A' steals the whatsit of power from key villain 'X' then this will reverberate around the game forever. Your writing, both dialogue and otherwise, will need to factor that in. NPC 'B' might think stealing the whatsit was cool. NPC 'C' might think it was unforgivable due to her belief in the Curse of Whatsit (this is another story arc you're tracking). On top of that NPCs 'D' 'E' and 'F' have their own divergent views.

 

And the Whatsit of Power is one story arc and plot device out of, I dunno, twenty?

 

Now there is one thing America isn't short of, and that's lawyers and wannabe writers. You find a writer who can do all of this and is half-decent. You say to them "oh, remember the Whatsit of Power quest?"

 

"Yeah?"

 

"CHARNAME, we've decided, can romance NPC 'C.' Can you get on that?"

 

"Er, NPC 'C' would never get involved with anyone who dared mess with the Whatsit!"

 

"* sigh * I know, but hey, this is games development, right?"

 

Let's go back to our divergent views. Not only do the NPCs have their own views on the Whatsit (which I've decided is a voodoo doll of a Promancer) but they'll certainly have views on CHARNAME getting it on with 'C.'

 

At this point your rolling your eyes. Of course it can be done, or should have been planned from the start.

 

That doesn't change the fact that you want this to be quality writing, right? It's got to feel compelling and gripping but segue effortlessly into the medium. Oh, and you need three or four potential LIs all with different agendas and dynamics and inter-party relationships impacted by (literally) dozens of different CHARNAME decisions?

 

I'm getting a cold sweat just thinking about writing this. I really, really don't want to write for games.

 

So when you think "it's just a romance" it isn't. It's dozens and dozens of hours of writing and content that could make another quest, another NPC, another explorable area.

 

So, please bear that in mind when you ask for content like this.