Petition for comprehensive modding tools

[JFSOCC]

Based on the most recent interview, it's been made clear that modding tools aren't very high on the priorities list of obsisian

 

Plenty of role-playing games allow us to modify games - Skyrim, The Witcher, etc - or to make bespoke adventures within them. Some even give us developer-made tools. Pillars of Eternity won't, Sawyer said, but Obsidian does want the game to be as welcoming to modders as possible.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-02-10-pillars-of-eternity-interview-off-cuts

 

I was really looking forward, as a novice, to work on my own fan mods. This is to my mind terrible news. for reasons I've stated elsewhere:

having read the rest of the interview. I have to say, I am EXTREMELY disappointed that there aren't going to be modding tools. Strong modding tools are what keeps a game and it's community alive LONG after other games would have been forgotten. It's why people are STILL making mods for morrowind.

 

I think it's a collosal mistake not to release a tool for modding and editing as much as possible. I think saying that you'll release tools (maybe) for "Table-based stuff should be easily editable because it's in a text file" that's pretty much providing lip-service to editors. I think you are making a gigantic mistake by not releasing a comprehensive modding tool. Gigantic.

 

really screw the romance news, this is what should be the controversy.

 

Imagine how much you are going to lose out on! countless mods, encouraging new modders (potential future employees), a cap on creativity, community engagement, fan driven content.

I think it's just terribly stupid.

I can't believe I'm the only one who feels this way. So I'm hoping that with enough fan outcry maybe Obsidian will change its position on the matter.

 

So I'm starting this thread as a petition for better modding tools for Pillars of Eternity.

[Labadal]

I thought this was common knowledge from the beginning of the KS campaign?

 

As I said in the new stretch goals thread. I want one of the stretch goals to focus on robust modding tools. I wouldn't even mind if all funds went into that.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

I don't think you necessarily need developer-made modding tools to have a vibrant modding community. Otherwise, I would have reacted much more negatively to that part of the article.

 

The key question is: without developer-made tools, will modders still be able to introduce their own quests, characters, storylines? Will they be able to significantly alter what already exists? Can they introduce major changes to the game in a variety of areas, in order to improve it or possibly just cater to those who dislike the vanilla mechanics in some way?

 

If so, then I'm content. If not, then there is a problem.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Death Machine Miyagi

[JFSOCC]

That's a fair argument. But just look at what has come out of something like the Garden of Eden Creation Kit, or GecK. Sooooooo much content. Minimal tools, or opaque user-unfriendly tools will alienate potential new modders. People with talent and a story to tell who decide that it's just not worth getting in to.

 

For instance, from what I understand now, it's going to be very difficult to add in new environments, which basically forces anyone to re-use what is supplied by the game.

[sibakruom]

I don't know any specific details, but releasing or not modding tools may not have been Obsidian's decision to make. They are using Unity, an engine they don't own, and what they are allowed to release may depend on the license under which Unity is provided to them.

[JFSOCC]

I don't know any specific details, but releasing or not modding tools may not have been Obsidian's decision to make. They are using Unity, an engine they don't own, and what they are allowed to release may depend on the license under which Unity is provided to them.

that might limit anything which copies unity functionality, I think, but nothing else.

But that could be a reason, I guess.

[Mannock]

I don't want the project to be distracted by new stretch goals, whatever they might be. Let Obsidian focus on what was initially promised (at the end of the campaign).

 

When/if a sequel is on the table, modding tools might come into play, who knows.

[rjshae]

I'd support this as a stretch goal for an expansion Kickstarter, because modding tools lead to richer content down the road.

 

They've have mentioned trying to allow for modding, but said that may prove limited because of the potential difficulty in creating new areas.

[Monte Carlo]

Second question needs a "we don't know enough yet" style response.

[Karkarov]

I will never mod this game, ever.  If they say they will offer a Obsidian made mod tool to modders though if they hit an additional funding level I will throw money at it though.  The game does not "need" a modding community to be a good game, or do well.  A strong modding community can and will however help a whole lot, help turn good games into great ones, and keep a game alive with fesh and fun content years after it's original release.

 

Obsidian may not "need" to release mod tools, but there is no real con to doing so and can be a serious long term pro for Eternity on the whole.

[tajerio]

I would be all for them releasing a set of mod tools if it's easy to do in terms of licensing and time.

 

But if it costs more than one or two days total work then no thanks.  I'd much rather have the work go into the base game than have it go towards letting non-devs do things to the game after it releases.

[NanoPaladin]

Not sure on my opinion to this topic just yet.

 

I know that XCOM did not have any real modding tools yet it still has a small modding community.

 

Then there is Shadowrun Returns, which has modding tools and all the like but its modding community is just as small as XCOMs.... so the question becomes this; will be modding community be big enough to denote a tools release? Or will it sort of... not really exist as it should?

 

So after thinking on it for a little bit. I think tools would be a good idea but they should be released after the game.

[Gizmo]

Developer tools would be fantastic... I'd love a modernized FO2 style editor and a Bam-Workshop equivalent; robust Lua scripting, and open formats.

 

(A better UI than the FO2 editor of course.) Do we know if it uses FBX? I've been out of the loop for a while.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Gizmo

[JFSOCC]

Second question needs a "we don't know enough yet" style response.

too late for me to edit, but mods are welcome to add it.

[Gumbercules]

The Infinity Engine games didn't have much official modding support, yet they survived long-term just fine. From what has been said, it seems like PoE will still be better for modding than those games.

 

Given the relatively meager budget, I would rather that they focus on making the game itself as good and successful as they can. If it really does turn out to be a hit, and if it seems like a modding community is forming anyway, maybe they can retroactively add better support, or design the sequel to be highly moddable right from the start. The developers of Shadowrun Returns spent a lot of time on modding support, and the result was both an anemic game and anemic modding community.

 

Now, all of this assumes that providing comprehensive modding tools would take a lot of time and effort that would be better spent elsewhere. If it's in fact really easy to provide, then sure, better to provide it! But I think they would already be doing so if that were the case.

[JFSOCC]

Not sure on my opinion to this topic just yet.

 

I know that XCOM did not have any real modding tools yet it still has a small modding community.

 

Then there is Shadowrun Returns, which has modding tools and all the like but its modding community is just as small as XCOMs.... so the question becomes this; will be modding community be big enough to denote a tools release? Or will it sort of... not really exist as it should?

 

So after thinking on it for a little bit. I think tools would be a good idea but they should be released after the game.

Shadowrun returns is hardly a year old. don;t you think it's too fast to judge?

Either way, if your base game isn;t good, no wealth of modding tools is going to save your community. As I understand Shadowrun returns was a bit of a disappointment for many people.

[Infinitron]

You're going to be able to mod this game easily, guys. It's just creating new areas that's complex as hell, just like in the IE games, where almost nobody did it. There's a price to pay for those lush prerendered backgrounds.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Infinitron

[Gizmo]

You're going to be able to mod this game easily, guys. It's just creating new areas that's complex as hell, just like in the IE games, where almost nobody did it. There's a price to pay for those lush prerendered backgrounds.

It would be grand if they would later post a synopsis of the work involved, and highlight the most non-intuitive aspects with a bit of explanation about them.

[Orogun01]

I don't think you necessarily need developer-made modding tools to have a vibrant modding community. Otherwise, I would have reacted much more negatively to that part of the article.

 

The key question is: without developer-made tools, will modders still be able to introduce their own quests, characters, storylines? Will they be able to significantly alter what already exists? Can they introduce major changes to the game in a variety of areas, in order to improve it or possibly just cater to those who dislike the vanilla mechanics in some way?

 

If so, then I'm content. If not, then there is a problem.

Without developer support it is left to the excitement of the community and the talent within it, which may be the same as flicking a coin as they can be fickle. For Bethesda game in particular there are a lot of tools developed by the community itself that assist with modding. Lack of support just set the curve for the necessary level of excitement to have a dedicated community much higher.

[Hassat Hunter]

Hate to say it, but this wasn't at all unexpected.

 

UNITY isn't know for it's modability... many more devs who used unity and wanted modding ended up with... nothing. Because to really get to the depth of it, the modder would need a rather expensive unity license (not expensive for companies, but it would be for individuals)...

 

I don't think Obsidian can really do much about this anymore, since it's a little late for going a whole different engine...

[NanoPaladin]

 

Not sure on my opinion to this topic just yet.

 

I know that XCOM did not have any real modding tools yet it still has a small modding community.

 

Then there is Shadowrun Returns, which has modding tools and all the like but its modding community is just as small as XCOMs.... so the question becomes this; will be modding community be big enough to denote a tools release? Or will it sort of... not really exist as it should?

 

So after thinking on it for a little bit. I think tools would be a good idea but they should be released after the game.

Shadowrun returns is hardly a year old. don;t you think it's too fast to judge?

Either way, if your base game isn;t good, no wealth of modding tools is going to save your community. As I understand Shadowrun returns was a bit of a disappointment for many people.

 

 

Not at all, look at the modding response for Skyrim, even NwN. 

[Gizmo]

Because to really get to the depth of it, the modder would need a rather expensive unity license (not expensive for companies, but it would be for individuals)...

Is this because of a need for the premium features? Unity itself is free to download.

 

 

Not at all, look at the modding response for Skyrim, even NwN.

Legend of Grimrock also; they've got a thriving fanbase over there, and it's almost entirely the toolset.

(The basic game is essentially 'Eye of the Beholder' or 'Dungeon Master'. There are mods for that game that build systems not found in the game that shipped; as well as custom 3D content and loads of custom maps.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Gizmo

[Orogun01]

 

Because to really get to the depth of it, the modder would need a rather expensive unity license (not expensive for companies, but it would be for individuals)...

Is this because of a need for the premium features? Unity itself is free to download.

 

Technically it should be possible to open a game to users with either custom made tools by the developers or by allowing them to use Unity itself (always the better option, IMO) as long as they don't release Unity source code it shouldn't be a problem. But I think they may be using UnityPro which would require them to develop the tools since I doubt modders are going to pay for it.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

While it would be amazing to have end-user modding tools as the NWN franchise did, I don't believe it's within the scope and stated goals of P:E to obligate their inclusion. As long as they don't hardcode too many things (interface, character creation, etc.), then most of it should be rather accessible. The main obstacle for modding with the Infinity Engine was area creation, of which there are a multitude of tools which exist for such a thing. The limiting reagent, so to speak, is the talent to use them.

[AGX-17]

Hate to say it, but this wasn't at all unexpected.

 

UNITY isn't know for it's modability... many more devs who used unity and wanted modding ended up with... nothing. Because to really get to the depth of it, the modder would need a rather expensive unity license (not expensive for companies, but it would be for individuals)...

 

I don't think Obsidian can really do much about this anymore, since it's a little late for going a whole different engine...

Last I checked, the devs were gushing about Unity.