Body Types and video games

[LadyCrimson]

... when in reality its just a very vocal minority.

But see, that's the part I really don't understand. Isn't the other side, that insists upon leaving certain body image art alone/inclusive, also a "very vocal minority?" I mean, it's not like I consider the postings of people on forums representative of the game buying population as a whole, in either direction. Most consumers still likely don't ever bother to frequent forums.

 

If I were to guess (and note it's only me guessing), I'd suspect the actual majority would be more like GhostofAnkain (or myself, really, when it comes down to it) - where they really don't care too much one way or another, because for them, while options are always great, in the end what a character looks like isn't what actually defines whether they want to play a game or whether they think a game is good or bad.

 

It does seem to me that there hasn't been enough research on what type of games this "50% are women" statistic that gets tossed around are actually playing, however. It wouldn't surprise me, tho, if RPG's are one of the genres that women tend to choose and/or that they're starting to play a lot more variety than many seem to think. At any rate, if the companies feel the female audience is growing, and they can make more money by trying to attract them further into the fray, so to speak, well...yeah. It's going to happen.

 

If they later discover it's not bringing them more profits, they'll eventually try something else instead. Happens all the time. So if y'all are actually right, instead of just believing/convincing yourselves you're right, and it's just a vocal tiny minority, some of who never even play the games they're protesting against, all you have to do is wait for the companies to realize it.

[Bester]

A better comparison would be if your male character in a game only wore a loincloth but had this massive bulge in his pants [...] How would you feel every time you looked at your character?

1) I would feel AMAZING thank you very much.

2) I'd think this is the best game in the universe.

3) I'd identify with the my character like I never did before. It'd be a new level of identification with the character (close to virtual reality), a revolution in video game industry.

4) I'd play this game for thousands of hours.

5) What is manlier than a character that is constantly popping a boner? That's a rhetorical question, because the answer is NOTHING.

 

Something is wrong with you Bruce. You're asking questions that any infant knows answers to. Boner is the manliest thing on earth. Prehistorical people used to fight dinosaurs with their giant boners and that's how we rid the earth of these vile creatures. It's literally the.best.thing. You need to re-think your whole life my friend.

[Bester]

This thread needs more manliness

 

NOW YOU'RE A MAYOONNN

 

Edited January 21, 2014 by Bester

[HoonDing]

Check your fat privilege.

[Hurlshort]

I know I've said this before, but most games are trying to appeal to a large audience, and cartoony large boobs with tiny waists is really more of a niche appeal.  

[LadyCrimson]

You have one flawed assumption there - that male sexualization and female sexualization is the same. In other words, that women are "turned on" by the same things as men are.

While there are women that swoon over good-looking men (cough *Twilight*), obviously the standards are different.

For women it's (generally speaking) more emotional than physical, but it's still there. It's just harder to spot. Well, at least sometimes (dont' tell me Twilight isn't sexually objectifiying men).

 

Would it bother me to have a male avatar in a loincloth with a bulge? Not really. We've all seen Connan.

Missed this post earlier and just wanted to comment that I had a discussion on another forum about exactly that aspect of male/female sexualization, right down to the "don't tell me Twilight isn't objectifying men" part.

 

Anyway...I think it's fair to say that no one wants to feel constantly objectified, whatever that means to the individual. Empathy or at least having a certain level of acceptance that negative objectification can be and does mean different things to different people is key to finding some middle ground where it hopefully doesn't become simply an "either-or" scenario.

[Keyrock]

Video games, like movies and television (or even music for that matter), tend naturally to gravitate toward attractive people in starring roles.  Sure there are always some parts for fat or weird looking actors or actresses, but the vast majority of highly successful movie and television stars are very attractive people.  I guess it all boils down to the medium being essentially the realm of fantasy and when you watch a good movie or play a good video game you place yourself in the stars' shoes (at least I do) and we all like to imagine ourselves as being better looking than we really are.  I don't particularly mind.  I do wish there were more broad options in character creation as far as body types go, but I guess not all games can have a character creator like Saints Row.

 

As always, if there's enough demand for it, the modders will make it happen.  So if you want to play a fat dude or a flat chested woman, chances are modders will hook you up (though the nude mod will naturally appear much earlier because priorities).

Edited January 21, 2014 by Keyrock

[Meshugger]

I am still waiting for the million man march against Capitol hill in Washington, where men are screaming on of their lungs in unison, almost like a battlecry even: "We damand smaller peckers in Porn! Our feelings of objectivication depend on it!".

 

Or it is just in the minds of internet people, game journalists and alike. 

[Gorgon]

Didn't southpark do that already

[Undecaf]

Someone should make "first world problems" meme about this. "My videogame characters have too big (or small) boobs... *sob*"

 

If ever it was fitting...

[Nepenthe]

I still don't understand why some seem to feel so threatened because some games decide to try out not having big boobies etc. (that's rhetorical, btw, don't have to try to explain it, because I still likely won't understand it).

It's not a laudable decision when it's the result of caving in to the demands of a special interest group.

 

I know I've said this before, but most games are trying to appeal to a large audience, and cartoony large boobs with tiny waists is really more of a niche appeal.

Since when? A lot of people seem to enjoy comics, too, and cartoony body proportions certainly exist there. In fact, i'd posit they were imported from there.

 

 

I could write a diatribe about the absurd neovictorian cryptopatriarchalism put forward by the whole argument of the necessity of protecting weak females from the exaggerated and overt sexuality of female video characters... But I won't.

[BruceVC]

 

I still don't understand why some seem to feel so threatened because some games decide to try out not having big boobies etc. (that's rhetorical, btw, don't have to try to explain it, because I still likely won't understand it).

It's not a laudable decision when it's the result of caving in to the demands of a special interest group.

 

I know I've said this before, but most games are trying to appeal to a large audience, and cartoony large boobs with tiny waists is really more of a niche appeal.

Since when? A lot of people seem to enjoy comics, too, and cartoony body proportions certainly exist there. In fact, i'd posit they were imported from there.

 

 

I could write a diatribe about the absurd neovictorian cryptopatriarchalism put forward by the whole argument of the necessity of protecting weak females from the exaggerated and overt sexuality of female video characters... But I won't.

 

 "special interest group" ....that's the 50 % of female gamers right Nep and the sizable section of male gamers who also have an issue with it and that includes people like me and others and websites like RPS. So what do you consider a large enough number to actually warrant making changes to games? 70%...80 % ?

 

Now I can see the response from some people, "you don't know that all female gamers have an issue with the representation of females in games"

Yes that's true but you also don't know if they do. What I will say is that presented with certain feminist\equality arguments I fail to see how any women would have any issues with changes to some games and the way women are portrayed

[Enoch]

 

I still don't understand why some seem to feel so threatened because some games decide to try out not having big boobies etc. (that's rhetorical, btw, don't have to try to explain it, because I still likely won't understand it).

It's not a laudable decision when it's the result of caving in to the demands of a special interest group.

 

This presumes that one can reliably distinguish "caving in to" from "earnestly agreeing with the outlook of."  (Or "special interest group" from "segment of our target audience who has not historically been catered to.")

 

It's been established for decades that unrealistic physical appearance ideals do have negative effects on the well being of many people.  Presenting "only people who look like X" rather than "people who look like a broad cross-section of the population" has been endemic in film, TV, magazines, etc., for a long time, and the complaints about it have been going on for almost as long.  As videogames both grow past technological limitations ("We only have enough RAM for one male character model and one female character model") and grow into a more mainstream entertainment, they're entering that conversation. 

[Malcador]

I guess RPGs are ok in that respect, well in terms of making sure every body type and skin colour can be played. Story wise, well I can see that leading to some interesting handcuffing, heh.

 

 

What I will say is that presented with certain feminist\equality arguments I fail to see how any women would have any issues with changes to some games and the way women are portrayed

 

 

Now there's a ****ing surprise.

[Nonek]

Personally I don't find pixels attractive no matter what their design, whether stylised as hyper masculine or feminine, I know some people do fixate on their virtual attachments but one should certainly not cater to that type. As i've said previously i'd rather the characters show a strong personality, keen wits and self motivation rather than being decided by commitee or the arbitrary checklists of the time period however, which are forever mutable anyway. That said the game that sparked the debate is just an outrageously designed world anyway, and hardly the place for a serious debate.

[Amentep]

 

I know I've said this before, but most games are trying to appeal to a large audience, and cartoony large boobs with tiny waists is really more of a niche appeal.

Since when? A lot of people seem to enjoy comics, too, and cartoony body proportions certainly exist there. In fact, i'd posit they were imported from there.

 

One would think that cartoony body proportions came from...well...cartoons. But then I don't think anyone is complaining about Betty Boop on the thread. Or Daisy Duck. Or Minnie Mouse. Jessica Rabbit maybe?

 

That said massive mammaries in superhero comic books are a modern day hot button topic in comics communities as people wonder whether "breast size" actually counts towards existing characterization or if its just continually perpetuated titillation. Heck there was outrage - OUTRAGE - when DC attempted to have Wonder Woman wear pants a couple of years ago, much less doing something like...de-emphasizing Power Girl's bust (which also gets cries of outrage).

[Nepenthe]

 

 

 

I still don't understand why some seem to feel so threatened because some games decide to try out not having big boobies etc. (that's rhetorical, btw, don't have to try to explain it, because I still likely won't understand it).

It's not a laudable decision when it's the result of caving in to the demands of a special interest group.

 

I know I've said this before, but most games are trying to appeal to a large audience, and cartoony large boobs with tiny waists is really more of a niche appeal.

Since when? A lot of people seem to enjoy comics, too, and cartoony body proportions certainly exist there. In fact, i'd posit they were imported from there.

 

 

I could write a diatribe about the absurd neovictorian cryptopatriarchalism put forward by the whole argument of the necessity of protecting weak females from the exaggerated and overt sexuality of female video characters... But I won't.

"special interest group" ....that's the 50 % of female gamers right Nep and the sizable section of male gamers who also have an issue with it and that includes people like me and others and websites like RPS. So what do you consider a large enough number to actually warrant making changes to games? 70%...80 % ?

 

Now I can see the response from some people, "you don't know that all female gamers have an issue with the representation of females in games"

Yes that's true but you also don't know if they do. What I will say is that presented with certain feminist\equality arguments I fail to see how any women would have any issues with changes to some games and the way women are portrayed

90% of statistics are made up on the spot...

 

See my point about cryptopatriarchality above, you are taking it upon yourself to speak for "the poor ignored women" who, according to your imagination, are offended by the lack of bulging penii in games. Seriously, women are a) individuals b) very capable of fighting their own battles, c) without men or other women telling them what to do. Bs like this is what stands in the way of true equality.

[Nepenthe]

 

 

I know I've said this before, but most games are trying to appeal to a large audience, and cartoony large boobs with tiny waists is really more of a niche appeal.

Since when? A lot of people seem to enjoy comics, too, and cartoony body proportions certainly exist there. In fact, i'd posit they were imported from there.

One would think that cartoony body proportions came from...well...cartoons. But then I don't think anyone is complaining about Betty Boop on the thread. Or Daisy Duck. Or Minnie Mouse. Jessica Rabbit maybe?That said massive mammaries in superhero comic books are a modern day hot button topic in comics communities as people wonder whether "breast size" actually counts towards existing characterization or if its just continually perpetuated titillation. Heck there was outrage - OUTRAGE - when DC attempted to have Wonder Woman wear pants a couple of years ago, much less doing something like...de-emphasizing Power Girl's bust (which also gets cries of outrage).

I'm aware of that, and I also believe it has been going on for a lot longer, from the days when game characters were at pacman level. It was intended as a rebuttal of the "very few people enjoy said cartoony dimensions" argument.

[Malcador]

Personally I don't find pixels attractive no matter what their design, whether stylised as hyper masculine or feminine, I know some people do fixate on their virtual attachments but one should certainly not cater to that type. As i've said previously i'd rather the characters show a strong personality, keen wits and self motivation rather than being decided by commitee or the arbitrary checklists of the time period however, which are forever mutable anyway. That said the game that sparked the debate is just an outrageously designed world anyway, and hardly the place for a serious debate.

 

Crazy talk, every thing in gaming is a place for serious debate.

[Amentep]

I'm aware of that, and I also believe it has been going on for a lot longer, from the days when game characters were at pacman level. It was intended as a rebuttal of the "very few people enjoy said cartoony dimensions" argument.

To muddy the waters even more, there are a lot of women who defend, lets say, Powergirl's bosom because the stories have grown to accommodate the character addressing the issue that she's got a large chest and how that makes her perceived (ie the creators have tried to "own" the issue rather than ignore it).

 

There's a complex dynamic that exists in relation to character creation that I think would be best left to the creators creating what they think works and the audience embracing or ignoring it. Personally I'm just as discouraged by pundits complaining about the body types used in DRAGON'S CROWN (which is OTT but then just about everything in the game is) and those who criticized Obsidian for making a conscious decision to avoid "boob armor" in PE and demanded sexy fantasy armor in the game.

 

I'm happy to let people create what fits their game and letting it work (or not) on its own merits (or lack of same)

Edited January 21, 2014 by Amentep

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I still don't understand why some seem to feel so threatened because some games decide to try out not having big boobies etc. (that's rhetorical, btw, don't have to try to explain it, because I still likely won't understand it).

It's not a laudable decision when it's the result of caving in to the demands of a special interest group.

 

I know I've said this before, but most games are trying to appeal to a large audience, and cartoony large boobs with tiny waists is really more of a niche appeal.

Since when? A lot of people seem to enjoy comics, too, and cartoony body proportions certainly exist there. In fact, i'd posit they were imported from there.

 

 

I could write a diatribe about the absurd neovictorian cryptopatriarchalism put forward by the whole argument of the necessity of protecting weak females from the exaggerated and overt sexuality of female video characters... But I won't.

"special interest group" ....that's the 50 % of female gamers right Nep and the sizable section of male gamers who also have an issue with it and that includes people like me and others and websites like RPS. So what do you consider a large enough number to actually warrant making changes to games? 70%...80 % ?

 

Now I can see the response from some people, "you don't know that all female gamers have an issue with the representation of females in games"

Yes that's true but you also don't know if they do. What I will say is that presented with certain feminist\equality arguments I fail to see how any women would have any issues with changes to some games and the way women are portrayed

90% of statistics are made up on the spot...

 

See my point about cryptopatriarchality above, you are taking it upon yourself to speak for "the poor ignored women" who, according to your imagination, are offended by the lack of bulging penii in games. Seriously, women are a) individuals b) very capable of fighting their own battles, c) without men or other women telling them what to do. Bs like this is what stands in the way of true equality.

 

Nep you misunderstand me. I'm a liberal who tries to espouse liberal values, is against discrimination and believes in equality for all. But don't think for second this is something I do because either people appreciate it or need me to do it on there behalf. For example I have gay friends who don't care about homophobia, female friends who think rape jokes are funny and family members who are still racist, or pretend not to be, as they were raised in apartheid.

In fact I would argue its more difficulty to believe in the social justice issues I believe in than to be indifferent and apathetic. Being indifferent is easy, you only worry about what concerns you directly. I believe in what I do because I've travelled the world and lived in a country where discrimination was institutionalized and I've seen the suffering and unhappiness that bigotry causes and also how some people are forced to live due to "acceptable" social norms  

 

I stand by my liberal views because its the right thing to do, not because other people need me to do it

Edited January 21, 2014 by BruceVC

[GhostofAnakin]

 

 "special interest group" ....that's the 50 % of female gamers right Nep and the sizable section of male gamers who also have an issue with it and that includes people like me and others and websites like RPS. So what do you consider a large enough number to actually warrant making changes to games? 70%...80 % ?

 

Now I can see the response from some people, "you don't know that all female gamers have an issue with the representation of females in games"

Yes that's true but you also don't know if they do. What I will say is that presented with certain feminist\equality arguments I fail to see how any women would have any issues with changes to some games and the way women are portrayed

 

 

Where are you getting those numbers from?  Are you assuming that all women are as disgusted by big breasted video game characters as the vocal ones who are complaining about it?

 

A few of the female gamers I know (whether it be actual friends or just acquaintances I've met through playing various games online) actually get a kick out of the size of the breasts in game characters.  They find it amusing.  In fact, a few of them will actually select the big breasted characters (in games where you can choose body size) for the LOLs.

 

Believe it or not, women do have a sense of humor, too.  They see the humor in the ridiculous overstating of breasticles in the same way us guys find it funny when all the male characters look like He-man.

Edited January 21, 2014 by GhostofAnakin

[Malcador]

Nep you misunderstand me. I'm a liberal who tries to espouse liberal values, is against discrimination and believes in equality for all. But don't think for second this is something I do because either people appreciate it or need me to do it on there behalf. For example I have gay friends who don't care about homophobia, female friends who think rape jokes are funny and family members who are still racist, or pretend not to be, as they were raised in apartheid.

In fact I would argue its more difficulty to believe in the social justice issues I believe in than to be indifferent and apathetic. Being indifferent is easy, you only worry about what concerns you directly. I believe in what I do because I've travelled the world and lived in a country where discrimination was institutionalized and I've seen the suffering and unhappiness that bigotry causes and also how some people are forced to live due to "acceptable" social norms  

 

I stand by my liberal views because its the right thing to do, not because other people need me to do it

 

 

A gold star for you.  Though I think your crusading is wasted on the breast sizes of sprites in a MMORPG with pretty ridiculous art to begin with.

[Keyrock]

I find it hilarious when white knights assume they know what the majority of women want.  Of course, assuming they know best what a certain group wants and getting outraged for them is prototypical white knight behavior.  It's funny that white knights see themselves as some kind of moral role models and waging the war on stereotyping when their actions are the very definition of stereotyping.

[Nepenthe]

Used to be "keep the conservatives out of my bedroom and the liberals out of my pocket", but increasingly you have to beware the opposite

 

I dislike labels, so I don't apply them to myself, but I personally consider the "common" liberal viewpoints to be outdated themselves, are reaction to mores so far past us that they are a bit like the floppy disc save icon.

 

You have to accept that sexual liberation progresses at different speeds - something the internet blinds us to - in different countries and locales. I grew up in a family where both my parents are internationally recognised scientists, where equality wasn't just an utopia to be strived for but instead a situation so present and normal that it wasn't even noticed.