Steam Box, Nvidia Shield, Steam OS ETC: Not Supporting Controllers in 2014 Released Game Is NOT Forward Thinking

[AwesomeOcelot]

also really don't understand the hostility a lot of PC gamers have towards controllers.

There isn't, PC gamers have used controllers for as long as console gamers. What PC gamers don't like is having ****ty controller support, having gimped UI like in XCOM: Enemy Unknown because of controllers, and people who think that games like Baldur's Gate would work on a controller.

 

Is the game a RTS? Use a mouse. Is the game like Baldur's Gate? Use a mouse. Do you select multiple units in 2D or "isometric" perspective? Use a mouse. It's not difficult, use the best tools for the job, you wouldn't cut meat with a spoon, using a gamepad for this type of game is more retarded than that.

 

I don't understand how a pause-based strategic RPG is not the ideal kind of game for this play style.

Despite this type of game never working on console, rarely attempted. Have you even played a game like this? It's pretty obvious why analogue sticks aren't suitable.

[Luridis]

OP: See below...

 

http://youtu.be/JweTAhyR4o0?t=2m18s

 

I like Skyrim, I really do... But playing with a mouse and keyboard is really frustrating if using the default user interface.

 

 

Edit: I'd also like to add that the now unspoken requirement of voice acting for every line of dialogue has been a terrible move for RPGs. Voice acting is expensive, and as a result dialogues in many cases have reduced trite and meaningless babble that you're fed up with after the first hour of play. Good character interaction is far easier to write than it is to act, and far less expensive to produce.

 

Want and example?

 

At no point when playing Planescape Torment did I run repeatedly into a dialogue bubble saying, "I used to be an adventurer like you, but then I took an arrow in the knee."

Edited December 13, 2013 by Luridis

[anameforobsidian]

 

The goal of the Kickstarter is to make a game that will not be a commercial success, or at least, seems very unlikely to be a commercial success.  In this case, it means making a PC exclusive game with no multiplayer support, no voice over, fixed isometric point-of-view, and so forth.  Inevitably, the consequences of these decisions, along with the fact that a good portion of their sales have already occurred means that relatively few units will be sold at retail.  I'd be very surprised (& pleased!) if this game breaks $1 million (20k sales) in revenue, and feel $250k (5k sales),  And that's fine, because even if it doesn't sell a single unit Obsidian breaks even (theoretically, at least -- given game development budgets, I suspect an overrun is likely).

 

 

Your sentiment is in the right place, but technically untrue.  The game, if it releases within budget will be a commercial success.  That's the amazing thing about kickstarter it doesn't guarantee that non-commercial success will get made, it guarantees that games a market wants will be made.  If they release on budget and sell a single copy after they release, they've actually made a profit, something that million-sellers can't even do for some publishers.  

 

Sure that profit may be minuscule compared to what publishers want, but that's the power of the idea.  Theoretically, in a competitive market eventually long-term profits should fall to very small levels and everyone's .  Publishers and stockholders are uncomfortable with that idea, so they've been distorting the games market to try to manufacture unrealizable gains.

[Hassat Hunter]

Oh yeah, horrible interfaces due to consolidation (The Elder Scrolls, Witcher II, Dragon Ages) are common-day these days. A good PC interface? Impossible to find.

Let's not wring the only good one in production just so people who aren't even the target goal of this game can buy it, play it 1 hour, then discard it since it's too much talk, too little action and michael bay...

[PrimeJunta]

I have nothing against controllers. I am against the design compromises that will inevitably happen if you make a game that is playable both on controllers and with mouse+keyboard. One or the other will feel gimped, and it's usually mouse+keyboard. A control scheme is more than just a re-skin, it has implications deep into the systems.

 

Put another way, make PC games for PC's, and console games for consoles, and everybody will be getting a good experience. If you enjoy both types of games, then buy both devices. It's not like they're hideously expensive these days.

[anameforobsidian]

Put another way, make PC games for PC's, and console games for consoles, and everybody will be getting a good experience. If you enjoy both types of games, then buy both devices. It's not like they're hideously expensive these days.

 

They really are for a lot of people.  I had scrimp for a couple weeks to back PE at a basic tier (that was back when we would end each month with $30 in our bank account if we were lucky).  I hate when people say "get all the consoles," because even now a new console is still a month's insurance payment or food.

[PrimeJunta]

I was thinking more the other way around. I.e., if you can afford a console, you probably already have a low-end PC capable of running PoE, so there's really no point to a console version. Console games tend to cost more, too. And if you're low on money, you're more likely to have a PC than a fourth-gen console.

[MReed]

Your sentiment is in the right place, but technically untrue.  The game, if it releases within budget will be a commercial success.  That's the amazing thing about kickstarter it doesn't guarantee that non-commercial success will get made, it guarantees that games a market wants will be made.  If they release on budget and sell a single copy after they release, they've actually made a profit, something that million-sellers can't even do for some publishers.  

 

Sure that profit may be minuscule compared to what publishers want, but that's the power of the idea.  Theoretically, in a competitive market eventually long-term profits should fall to very small levels and everyone's .  Publishers and stockholders are uncomfortable with that idea, so they've been distorting the games market to try to manufacture unrealizable gains.

 

 

There is a big difference between "commercial success" and "profitable".  To be exact, to be a commercial success a game (or anything else, for that matter) needs to earn enough to provide a return on investment -- and the investment in this case is somewhere north of $4 million.  Yes, due to the unique funding model offered by Kickstarter, Obsidian is in the very nice position of not having to pay back its investors, but from the POV of "industry observers" and publishers who might finance future titles along the same lines will be judging the success or failure of the game by that standard.

 

Of course, to be fair you should count contributors who receive a copy of the game as "pre-orders" at the minimum cost to purchase a copy at the point when the backed the game (regardless of the actual contribution level).  This helps moving the needle, perhaps quite a bit depending on how many retail sales there are, but...  Not that far, I'm afraid.

 

I admit that I'd be curious to see the final numbers -- actual costs incurred v. revenue received -- but I suspect that Obsidian can't (legally) or won't ("trade secrets") release that kind of detailed data publicly.  After all, Obsidian is an ongoing business concern and has to take that into account when making decisions to release this kind of data.

[Karkarov]

I've asked it before when this comes up, but, I'll ask it again. How many console owners do you think don't also own a low-end PC capable of running PoE? Of those, how many do you think would be interested in playing an isometric party-based cRPG with lots of reading mixed with tactical combat and character-building?

The first part of your post made sense Junta.  Truthfully most console owners who really are serious gamers also own a pc more than capable of handling Eternity.  I think it is worth mentioning though that any current console probably could handle it technologically as well but... that is basically side bar. 

 

The number two part you may be surprised by the answer though.  It really does get tiring seeing people on this forum insinuating everyone who owns a console is either an idiot or someone who is an idiot who also only plays FPS games.

[Sensuki]

To be honest I think people's frustration towards consoles and console gamers is very understandable. People back Projects like this to REMOVE the console from infecting their gaming experience, and it's no surprise that when someone posts a thread like this that they are met with disdain.

[Irx]

I have 3 gamepads but only use them to play fighting games with my bros and those terrible console ports which fail at keyboard+mouse.

PE should not have any controller support beyond K+M, period.

You simply can't make a decent RTwP tactical combat, inventory, general interface and a camera control for gamepad, they suck at everything but fighting games and 2d arcades, the only plus is they are more convenient to play with while on a sofa - and if you want to play RTwP rpg like that, get a notebook (or wireless K+M).

Edited December 16, 2013 by Irx

[PrimeJunta]

@Karkarov, I did not want to imply that someone who doesn't like PoE style games is an idiot. I don't think someone's taste in games is a very good indicator of that.

[sesobebo]

I can no longer sit back and allow Consolist infiltration, Consolist indoctrination, Consolist subversion and the international Consolist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

[neo6874]

... get a notebook...

is it bad that my immediate addition to this was "and some dice"? 

Edited December 16, 2013 by neo6874

[Jarmo]

I'd like to add that Temple of Elemental Evil had a great action selection wheel that was perfectly functional and gave easy access to all necessary controls.

And it also showed the keyboard shortcut keys for the actions, so you could use the selection wheel for less common things and shortcuts for the common ones.

Faster and more convenient to play using the shortcuts, but not necessary. The game would have been perfectly fine to play with a controller.

 

I actually think the niche of people who would like to play traditional style RPG and strategy games on consoles is an existing one and bigger than many seem to believe.

Go a few years forward and I can see a lot of people having only a tablet and a console (also many with tablet only).

 

Not me though.

[Sensuki]

I disagree. ToEE's selection wheel was better than Neverwinter Nights 1, but oh god it's still a horrible way to do things.

[Mushroom C1oud]

You can still plug a mouse and keyboard into a Steam Box and you can still plug a PC into a TV. So whether you get a steam box or not you can still play on your TV in your living room.

[Azmodan]

The game is being designed for a PC.

 

Having said that - I give this game a month, before some enterprising linux devotee patches in controller support. And then your friends will be able to play it on consoles.

I will also give your friends all of a day, before they realise that had they been using a mouse and keyboard, their responsiveness in combat and inventory/spells/skills etc management would be immediate, rather than dulled by the limited discrete points of input (i.e. buttons).

 

To those who are saying: "OMFG, c0nsolez die! etc.", be the bigger person.

[Ganrich]

I definitely don't want consoles to die, but I do want analog sticks to die in fiery acid. Which is why I have hope for valves controller. I like playing from the couch as much as the next guy, but my preferred genres usually keep me at a desk.

[MReed]

The game is being designed for a PC.

 

Having said that - I give this game a month, before some enterprising linux devotee patches in controller support. And then your friends will be able to play it on consoles.

I will also give your friends all of a day, before they realise that had they been using a mouse and keyboard, their responsiveness in combat and inventory/spells/skills etc management would be immediate, rather than dulled by the limited discrete points of input (i.e. buttons).

 

To those who are saying: "OMFG, c0nsolez die! etc.", be the bigger person.

And then it will take a week for the request to make "minor changes" in the sequel to make it work better with controllers...

[Kronojon]

As someone who prefers a controller, I just want them to build in the ability for us to map the controller sticks and buttons without having to resort to using things like xpadder or joy2key.  Let me map the functions I want natively.  I'm not asking that they dumb down the game, change the UI/menus, or make any other special gameplay accomodations.  If their are more commands than controller buttons, let me map them and I'll reach for the keyboard when I need the others.

 

I want the game to have all of the depth that it can, just let me choose how I control it.  I work with a keyboard and mouse all day.  When I get home, I want to use them as little as possible.  We're just asking for options.

[PrimeJunta]

@Kronojon, you have scads of options. Lots of games have built-in controller support. That doesn't mean all of them have to.

[Night Stalker]

As someone who prefers a controller, I just want them to build in the ability for us to map the controller sticks and buttons without having to resort to using things like xpadder or joy2key.  Let me map the functions I want natively.  I'm not asking that they dumb down the game, change the UI/menus, or make any other special gameplay accomodations.  If their are more commands than controller buttons, let me map them and I'll reach for the keyboard when I need the others.

 

I disagree. You might accept with a halfhearted/not very good implementation of your controller(s) of choice, but I think many wouldn't, and would be angry or disappointed of being mislead that the game claims to support controllers. I would also think that a halfhearted controller implementation would be brought up as a sore point in the reviews, giving PoE a lower score, hurting sales.

 

IMO PoE should implement a good system for controllers, or none at all, and leave it to unofficial solutions to get any support for controllers.

 

Since I funded this game under the impression that it would be a spiritual successor to the IE games, and the game would make no compromises in order to be more console friendly (which for input means controller friendly), I personally don't want Obsidian to spend any significant time or resources to implement controller support. 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

But correct me if I"m wrong but this is a turn based strategy RPG.

 

How do you explain someting like XCOM which works amazingly well with a controller.

 

Pillars of Eternity is not turn based. There is a significant speed difference between Real-Time with Pause and Turn-Based gameplay. RTwP plays much more akin to a Real-Time Strategy game, which would be horrendous with a gamepad.

 

I don't imagine it's out of the question that a port could be modded or performed sometime in the very distant future, but it's not happening for release or any time soon after. Rightly, and justly so.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I disagree. ToEE's selection wheel was better than Neverwinter Nights 1, but oh god it's still a horrible way to do things.

 

I actually enjoyed TOEE's wheel. It wasn't lightning fast, but it didn't need to be due to the turn-based game. I found it efficient, unobtrusive, and elegant. What exactly didn't you like about it?