UI for Controllers

[comport9]

While this topic was mentioned before, and received the expected invective from ignorant elitist "REAL PC gamers...", I wanted to revisit the issue to see if the dev's have had any discussions related to this matter. In a (probably vain) attempt to head off the flamers arguments, I'll post a few ideas and caveats.

 

Eternity is a PC game first and formost. I understand, and respect this. And as most (percentage?) players who backed this project will be using a keyboard & mouse setup, the UI must reflect this and be optimized for this set up.

 

However,

 

I rebuke any stance and idea that this precludes including a UI that enables users of a controller (360) from playing the game in a fashion that is most convienient for them. This isn't a one-or-the-other proposition. Both options can be fully enabled and optimized while not taking anything away from the other.

 

This will of course require additional work and resources. But perhaps this is worth it. The problem I see is that we don't have solid numbers as to how many would choose to play this game with a controller if given the choice. No cost/benefit analysis has been done for this (as far as I know).

 

The KB&M crowd are a vocal bunch. As is any group that belongs to a dying, at least diminishing, segment. This isn't up for debate, examples of this are everywhere. (This is NOT about PC games in general, just the use of KB&M). From the growing popularity of consoles, phones, tablets, and the soon-to-be "Steam Box", the time of the KB&M being the defacto-standard interface is fast approaching its end. For this reason, I believe, a strong argument can be made to spend the time to implement a UI for the controller centric crowd to future-proof the game now, and for future expansions/sequels.

 

I've read the same statements made by the dev's how they were tired of building their games for consoles while ignoring the PC crowd. The KB&M crowd have used this statement as justification for closing debate on this issue. I consider this both premature, as the statement was made quite a while ago now, and taken out of context somewhat. Let me explain the latter: all of Obsidian's previous games have been funded by a publisher. They weren't free to make the decisions they wanted. As mentioned earlier, consoles being popular, publishers wished their game to be optimized for the console crowd first and formost. Nothing wrong with this in and of itself, however, publishers being what they are, they chose to ignore the, albeit smaller, PC segment entirely resulting in shody "ports" of games from the console to the PC. I view the dev's statements from the perspective that they were tired of comprisming the enjoyment of one segment of their fans for the benefit of another. NOT that they are somehow against console gamers entirely.

 

It's from this perspective that I feel that debate on this subject shouldn't be shut down. Perhaps I'm wrong though. Perhaps the dev's do have an idiological problem with using controllers as an interface device and it's for this reason that they won't include any controller support.

 

I sincerely hope this isn't the case, as it makes them no better than the publishers they complained about.

 

In SHORT:

 

1 ) Could the dev's give some clarification on this issue.

2 ) If they won't include controller support, will they at least build the game to allow for modders to add controller support?

 

I want everyone to happily enjoy the game with whatever interface device they feel most comfortable with. Is that asking too much?

[GhoulishVisage]

1 ) Could the dev's give some clarification on this issue.

2 ) If they won't include controller support, will they at least build the game to allow for modders to add controller support?

 

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-05-project-eternity-as-a-series-could-run-for-eternity

 

 

"Our goal was just to make a PC-focused, much more keyboard-driven - something that's a bit more, for want of a better word, old-school. We enjoyed making those old Infinity Engine games. I don't know that they'd work as well on consoles, which was one of the reasons we focused on Windows in the first place."

 

Modding support is more uncertain at the moment.

 

 

I want everyone to happily enjoy the game with whatever interface device they feel most comfortable with. Is that asking too much?

 

The game is being designed with a certain audience in mind. An audience that doesn't want the game altered, changed or "streamlined" to be controller friendly, that doesn't want resources diverted away from important things to make ye another game that's limited in it's design to make it accessible to those who want it to be just another consolified game.

The backers paid for a pc game that's designed with a keyboard and mouse in mind. A proper crpg.

[Elerond]

 

 

Chris Avellone: It's been difficult to find a true party-based role-playing game, notably because they're hard to implement on console systems due to the interface limitations with the controllers (and almost RPGs being released often have to have console versions in order to maximize the return on investment). With the focus on the PC platforms (traditional PC, plus Mac and Linux) and targeting a market that wants this specific platform, that goes a long way to allowing for the kind of interface support needed for a more traditional Infinity Engine game-style party experience. If people want to control an entire party of characters to explore environments, solve puzzles and challenges, and tactically approach encounters with specific formations and moment-to-moment control and support, Eternity allows for it.

http://www.rpgfan.com/features/Project_Eternity_Interview/

 

 

1UP: Does an isometric perspective open up opportunities to do things that would be impossible or less effective in a first person or over-the-shoulder RPG?

Party-based combat, for certain. 3rd person and 1st person don't tend to allow for a lot of companions (trying to govern 5 people plus your PC in a 3rd or 1st person game usually means letting their AI run as it will). Also, the controller scheme for a console game doesn't tend to allow for it, either.

In the Infinity Engine games, you were able to guide and select a party to attack creatures and threats, and having that level of up-high-in-the-sky control and sense of tactics created for much different RPG fights and reminds me more of a pen-and-paper gaming session with tabletop miniatures.

http://www.1up.com/features/interview-chris-avellone-project-eternity

 

 

Avellone: "[i'm] tired of designing content and interactions that caters to consoles and console controllers."

http://kotaku.com/5942307/the-people-behind-fallout-and-planescape-are-making-my-dream-rpg

Edited October 26, 2013 by Elerond

[AwesomeOcelot]

I rebuke any stance and idea that this precludes including a UI that enables users of a controller (360) from playing the game in a fashion that is most convienient for them. This isn't a one-or-the-other proposition. Both options can be fully enabled and optimized while not taking anything away from the other.

a) Time, it takes away time as you acknowledge. Doesn't matter how many players would play it, this game is for the backers, PC gamers, who play squad based RPGs with RTS like interfaces with a mouse because that's by far the best way to play these types of games. If they don't have another option because of circumstance they might play on a touchscreen or touchpad.

 

b) I don't believe it's ever been done. I very much doubt it can with Project Eternity given the type of games it wants to emulate and the type of games the team have developed in the past. You can look at interfaces gimped by having both mouse and gamepad interface like Skyrim, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas, XCOM: Enemy Unknown, Dragon Age 2. Then you have gameplay that's simplified to account for gamepad as well, e.g. Crysis 2, Crysis 3, Dragon Age: Origins.

 

The KB&M crowd are a vocal bunch. As is any group that belongs to a dying, at least diminishing, segment. This isn't up for debate, examples of this are everywhere. (This is NOT about PC games in general, just the use of KB&M). From the growing popularity of consoles, phones, tablets, and the soon-to-be "Steam Box", the time of the KB&M being the defacto-standard interface is fast approaching its end. For this reason, I believe, a strong argument can be made to spend the time to implement a UI for the controller centric crowd to future-proof the game now, and for future expansions/sequels.

i) If you talk about consoles, phones, and tablets this is about PC games in general. Just because all those platforms are growing faster than PC gaming doesn't mean that PC gaming is dying, it doesn't even mean that PC gaming isn't growing. Console gaming has always been larger in the West and the richer markets, PC gaming has never been big in Japan. How can something be growing and dying? Why should it matter what other platforms are doing? PC gamers still want PC games and they're willing to fund them.

 

ii) I doubt M&KB is dying, that's nonsense, if you look at the percentage of players on PC playing FPS, RTS, TBS, and Adventure the proportion playing with M&KB is probably roughly the same, it will remain the same, because playing with a analogue stick over a mouse given the choice is pants on head retarded. I mean, pants don't go on the head, that's clearly the wrong place to wear them.

 

iii) M&KB was never the defacto standard for PC gamers, it was rare a PC gamer didn't own a joystick and later a gamepad, because for flight sims, 6 axis, fighting, and driving games for instance you don't want a keyboard with its digital input.

 

iv) It's clearly the other way around, gamepads are compromising towards the mouse, Ouya and PS4 pads include a touchpad in acknowledgement that analogue sticks don't work, and the "Steam Machine" that you refer to has its own controller with two touchpads and a touchscreen. In the end it'll be the touchscreen and touchpad that dominate outside of the desk for these types of games, and Obsidian have already said they'll support touchscreen, touchpad, one-button mouse which means that the PS4 and Steam controller will automatically be supported. As this is the PC you should be able to map whatever buttons you like as long as the controller supports XInput or DirectInput on Windows, and the other OS APIs. That's enough future proofing and doesn't even need any work.

Edited October 26, 2013 by AwesomeOcelot

[ManifestedISO]

Wow, excellent presentation. I couldn't agree more, but I'm resigned to accept P:E as is, and quite happily. I know I could enjoy using a PS4 controller when the time comes, as it's confirmed to work out-of-the-box for PC and even Mac, but we'll see what happens. I'm not a fan of WASD or having to learn dozens of KB buttons to play, but P:E won't be like that anyway.    

[Sensuki]

elitist REAL PC gamer reporting in.

 

We are not a dying and diminishing segment. Keyboard and mouse is not dying out.

 

There are certain types of games that will always be best on PC, to be played with keyboard and mouse

 

FPS - despite them being popular on console, an FPS is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better on a PC, especially for competitive.

 

RTS - games like Starcraft: Brood War, Company of Heroes, Age of Empires etc would be unplayable on a console.

 

Isometric RPGs like Project Eternity - are inspired by an RTS contol schema and interface design. As proven by BG:EE you 'can' play them with a touch screen but Baldur's Gate 1 doesn't really require too many inputs per minute in combat. BG2 Mage fights will get quite hairy and Eternity is being designed with even more constant inputs in mind.

 

Most importantly - any resources spent on providing a console or touch interface will hurt the size, scope and quality of the game, and could compromise the design.

 

Get a Media PC and wireless keyboard and mouse and play on your couch - problem solved.

[Sabotin]

Well the thing is, that a console UI can work fine on PC, but a PC UI needs to be reworked for consoles. That's why, in my opinion, multi-platform games always go with a console type UI. And a console type UI is in some aspect pretty much always a pain to use on a PC.

 

A controller lacks the speed/accuracy combination that a mouse has (they're trying to solve it since a while with the sticks and touchscreens and various software tricks), so the interface has to be deliberately designed to account for it, usually by having everything compartmentalized, large and button oriented, which slows down work with it. If you consider you have to control every move of 6 characters that's a pretty big workload, so much in fact that one of the main concepts of the system is the active pause.

 

Although it probably has a lot to do with what people are used to (I get annoyed in 1min of using a laptop without a mouse), I just don't see a solution without compromising performance on either side.

[WorstUsernameEver]

On Steambox and comfy couch: the new Steam controller seems to be more or less designed to fill this hole and make up for the lack of precision for standard controllers. The button placement looks weird to me, but I'd have to try it before being able to comment. Either way, that looks like your best bet in terms of controlling Project Eternity with a... controller (badum-tissh).

 

Until then, I'm afraid I can't envision an Infinity Engine-like game being played with anything that's not M&KB, with the possible exception of tablets (and even then, I'd expect it to be far less efficient than M&KB).

[C2B]

Ok, if any of the "Contoller for PE!" will made a mod for any IE game that allows to play those games with a controller than we will back you guys up and force Obsidian to support controllers. Until one of you do this stop with those kind of topics.

Well there ARE controller profiles for IE games

 

 

http://pinnaclegameprofiler.com/pc-controller-support/alpha-gamepad-joystick/xbox-360-ps3-psx-etc/baldurs-gate

 

Don't overpromise on something that simple.

[alanschu]

 

 

I rebuke any stance and idea that this precludes including a UI that enables users of a controller (360) from playing the game in a fashion that is most convienient for them. This isn't a one-or-the-other proposition. Both options can be fully enabled and optimized while not taking anything away from the other.

 

This will of course require additional work and resources. But perhaps this is worth it. The problem I see is that we don't have solid numbers as to how many would choose to play this game with a controller if given the choice. No cost/benefit analysis has been done for this (as far as I know).

 

As you say, it requires additional work.  And it's not like Obsidian has never done work on console titles with controller support, either.

 

 

 

 

The KB&M crowd are a vocal bunch. As is any group that belongs to a dying, at least diminishing, segment. This isn't up for debate, examples of this are everywhere.

 

Just as a note, this is a rather confrontational tone and shifts the discussion from being a collaborative one to an adversarial one.  I for one, would dispute that the KB&M crowd is either dying or diminishing.  But since it evidently isn't up for debate, I guess the conversation just ends here?

[Messier-31]

This whole thing about a dying community of keyboard and mouse users is bollox.  

 

Also, some things are just the way they are... Halo 3 for PC will be exactly the same as StaCraft 2 for xBox. None.

 

Deal with it.

 

[SophosTheWise]

I rebuke any stance and idea that this precludes including a UI that enables users of a controller (360) from playing the game in a fashion that is most convienient for them.

 

 

I think you're confusing "convenient" with "what I'm accustomed to".  That's really the big difference here. Have you played the PS2-version of Age of Empires II? I have and it was horrible. Not even because of the U.I. but because the whole principle behind the design is that you click and select stuff. That's not what you usually do on a console. I know, Dragon Age has done it, and I haven't played it, but from what I've heard, they've locked the camera to some kind of 3rd-person view there, which is, for an RPG that's supposed to be tactical, not desirable at all. Not to forget that PE has a locked isometric view which means the DA-approach wouldn't even be applicable. 

 

To have a working system that accomodates both, console as well as PC players, would mean that Obsidian had to spend loads of their resources to basically reinvent the wheel. Let's not kid ourselves. There are reasons why RTS games and such have never made it successfully onto consoles. And even if I were a controller person (as a matter of fact I play on consoles as well as on PC) I would never want Obsidian to squander their money for an additional UI-wizardry which is not even dearly needed. It would be cool for the console-people, but it would mean that there's a lot of money going toward an additional budget that is not the core budget. If I had to choose one evil over the other, I would definitely vote for no-console-UI as a "sacrifice" to have everything else awesome. 

 

On a more personal note, I see no reason whatsoever to play a game like PE on a controller and I would hate to see Obsidian cater to controller-people because that would mean consolization and that has never ever in the history of gaming been a good thing for PC-exclusive genres. 

 

 

The problem I see is that we don't have solid numbers as to how many would choose to play this game with a controller if given the choice. No cost/benefit analysis has been done for this (as far as I know).

 

 

Not speaking from a business standpoint of course, but I think the numbers are quite clear, even without doing a cost/benefit analysis. The game was pitched as an old-school-RPG and it was absolutely implied that it would play with a keyboard and mouse. Thus, everyone who backed the project gave their implicit "I would play with KB&M". 

I'm not one for crying "The devs have betraaaaayed uuuus!" but in this case using funds for a controller-layout and UI (and playtesting, and debugging etc) I could agree here. People wanted an old-school-RPG and not some consolized action RPG. 

 

 

The KB&M crowd are a vocal bunch. As is any group that belongs to a dying, at least diminishing, segment.

 

 

Well, so is the Iso-RPG crowd, I could argue here.

But it's not true. The thing that I see is gaming diverging. Gaming is more and more creating own segments. There's mobile gaming with simple puzzlers to play while on the toilet/in the train (Candy Crush, any of those bubble shooters, Angry Birds) , there's short artsy indies that care more about storytelling than about gameplay (Gone Home, Amnesia: AMFP, Dear Esther, Brothers), there are (more or less) console games which are the hollywood equivalent of gaming and there's complex games with complex systems causing complex simulation, promoting modability, complex systems and so on. PE clearly belongs to the latter category and it should be kept that way. 

 

 

 

Nothing wrong with this in and of itself, however, publishers being what they are, they chose to ignore the, albeit smaller, PC segment entirely resulting in shody "ports" of games from the console to the PC. I view the dev's statements from the perspective that they were tired of comprisming the enjoyment of one segment of their fans for the benefit of another. NOT that they are somehow against console gamers entirely.

 

 

You could be right and I agree with you that seeking compromises is a good thing and if they lead anywhere, bring it on. If you've got the money for it. I mean look at consolized games with a publisher behind it and who that worked out. Now look at their budget. And now look at Obsidians budget. This is a no brainer, really.

[J.E. Sawyer]

We have never discussed controller support for PE, only mouse and keyboard.  Controller functionality isn't something we're inherently opposed to, but I can't imagine it's something we would prioritize or spend time on during development.  Sorry.

[Gorgon]

I'm not.

[ManifestedISO]

At least the record shows a definitive answer, finally. 

[bonarbill]

We have never discussed controller support for PE, only mouse and keyboard.  Controller functionality isn't something we're inherently opposed to, but I can't imagine it's something we would prioritize or spend time on during development.  Sorry.

 

 

Typical answer from a developer trying to appeal to the keyboard & mouse elitists, despite the fact the one of the strengths of the PC is its ability to have multiple playing styles (K&M, Razor Naga, Controller).  I wish you understand that while we like playing with a keyboard and mouse, sometimes we like to play our PC games on the couch in front of a TV as well.  I know people say it "doesn't work", but I've played many console strategy games and SRPGs from the SNES and up that control like the infinity engine games, and they worked perfectly.

 

 

Nevertheless, if the developers don't add controller support, I think I will as a mod.  Considering I work for an Indie development studio that has extensive knowledge in Unity and C#, it shouldn't be that hard.

Edited October 29, 2013 by bonarbill

[AwesomeOcelot]

...I've played many console strategy games and SRPGs from the SNES and up that control like the infinity engine games, and they worked perfectly.

No you haven't.

[Messier-31]

Typical answer from a developer trying to appeal to the keyboard & mouse elitists, despite the fact the one of the strengths of the PC is its ability to have multiple playing styles (K&M, Razor Naga, Controller).  I wish you understand that while we like playing with a keyboard and mouse, sometimes we like to play our PC games on the couch in front of a TV as well.  I know people say it "doesn't work", but I've played many console strategy games and SRPGs from the SNES and up that control like the infinity engine games, and they worked perfectly.

 

Say that to CD Projekt RED as they tried and failed to bring Witcher 1 to consoles. Say that to them as they spent a whole year after the release of Witcher 2 to bring it to consoles. Say that to them as they are bringing Witcher 3 simultaneously to PC and consoles now, after more than 6 years of franchise (computer game franchise, books were started in 1986). Six long years of making games, fund raising, spending lots of money, and a lot of hard work to do it properly. Now take a look at silly $4,000,000 that Obsidian spends on Project Eternity.

 

Isometric cRPG is not arcade, acknowledge that. Also acknowledge that this isn't worth the effort right now - nor ever.

[ManifestedISO]

Yeesh, I can't imagine someone making their living as a developer being so short and testy with another dev. 

 

And on Super Nintendo, I don't remember a lot of strategic role-playing. I suppose I imagined myself in the role of Diddy Kong, and it required some strategy to swim past those nasty purple biter fish things ...  

[D3xter]

 

We have never discussed controller support for PE, only mouse and keyboard.  Controller functionality isn't something we're inherently opposed to, but I can't imagine it's something we would prioritize or spend time on during development.  Sorry.

 

 

Typical answer from a developer trying to appeal to the keyboard & mouse elitists, despite the fact the one of the strengths of the PC is its ability to have multiple playing styles (K&M, Razor Naga, Controller).  I wish you understand that while we like playing with a keyboard and mouse, sometimes we like to play our PC games on the couch in front of a TV as well.  I know people say it "doesn't work", but I've played many console strategy games and SRPGs from the SNES and up that control like the infinity engine games, and they worked perfectly.

 

 

Nevertheless, if the developers don't add controller support, I think I will as a mod.  Considering I work for an Indie development studio that has extensive knowledge in Unity and C#, it shouldn't be that hard.

 

You can't play a game like this on a Controller, since you have to quickly switch between different party members and give them different orders, but certain types of games that have already come up aren't really "compatible" with it.

FPS as is already barely are and use things like lock-on mechanisms to make this better.

The biggest problem is the constant, non-accelerated movement speed of analogue sticks and the lack of fine movements:

http://gradworks.umi.com/14/67/1467132.html

http://www.abload.de/img/mouse-accuracy3xrzn.png

 

I also like to play games from the couch with a X360/XInput Controller and even use it to browse the Web sometimes due to Xpadder Keybindings. I also have other peripherals like a driving wheel, WiiMote, Joystick and fight stick. But in comparison to you I very much recognize that there are specific games which work very well with specific Inputs and not very well with others. Games like "Halo Wars" have for instance also shown how "well" RTS work on consoles.

 

Even if you try to "mod" it, you will fail. There is a reason why developers like BioWare and CDProjekt have transitioned from a strategic top-down view with multiple party-members and various combat options to 3rd person solo Hack&Slash while their franchises have gradually transitioned over to console, it's because it plays better with a Controller... this game isn't supposed to be like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98Y1IAY-TYk

 

Your best bet would be likely waiting for this and seeing how well it might (or might not) work:

Edited October 30, 2013 by D3xter

[alanschu]

 

 

Considering I work for an Indie development studio that has extensive knowledge in Unity and C#, it shouldn't be that hard.

 

I also work for a dev studio, and can understand that all features represent an opportunity cost and that things like scope creep are very real things that are very real project killers, especially if you aren't exactly operating with a near limitless budget.

 

If you think that this is a decision made simply to appease Mouse and Keyboard elitists, only to mansplain what one of the apparent advantages of the PC are to a bunch of PC game developers that have been developing PC games (and console games) for over a decade, then I think you're being a bit naive in your assessment.

 

I'd bet my entire savings that it has much less to do with Obsidian thinking "it doesn't work."

 

 

On the plus side, however, if you're available to make a mod then you can do that and make all those people happy.  You can utilize it as leverage to help bring exposure to the Indie Development Studio you work for too.

[Gorgon]

I'm kinda interested in that STEAM controller. It doesn't look terrible. I have the one fot Xbox, I think I've used it once didn't like the feel of it. The pointing operation look ok, expecially if there a handy modifier switch which allows for minute adjustments.

 

I hope all the buttons are programmable.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I'd bet my entire savings that it has much less to do with Obsidian thinking "it doesn't work."

 

It's not that we don't think it could work; we just don't think a large number of people would actually want to play the game that way.  We're trying to support a fair amount of niche preferences in PE, but when those niches drop significantly below 10% of the people we believe are interested in the game, the motivation for us to support that preference goes down sharply.

 

So while it isn't incorrect to say that we're trying to appeal to keyboard and mouse players, I do think it's incorrect to identify them as the "elite".  In this case, they are very much the "popular".

 

I have a Steel Battalion controller that I could use in a variety of PC games (especially mech games, obviously).  I'd love it if a developer supported it, but I understand why they don't.

[Keyrock]

There's always xpadder if you're really dead set on using a controller.  Obviously, it won't be ideal, but I'm sure it will be feasible.

[AwesomeOcelot]

And on Super Nintendo, I don't remember a lot of strategic role-playing. I suppose I imagined myself in the role of Diddy Kong, and it required some strategy to swim past those nasty purple biter fish things ...

It's just a strange lie. Pretty sure Baldur's Gate was the first RPG to have RTS squad management. There were squad based RPG on the Genesis/SNES, they played a lot like JRPGs on the handhelds play now, turn based combat without positioning + direct control of one unit on a world map was common for the ones I played. They play nothing like Infinity Engine games.

 

As far as I know, apart from games that were meant to played with a mouse on the original Playstation, the only game that remotely plays like the Infinity Engine games on console is Supreme Commander 2 and it barely does. There's probably never going to be a RPG that plays like this because it works less well with smaller groups.

 

Dragon Age: Origins on console is more like Mass Effect, rejecting the RTS style of control and the gameplay has to be changed, it becomes more of a 3rd person action RPG like Elder Scrolls games in 3rd person view, or action adventures like Fable and Darksiders, with a squad that can be commanded like in Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six games.

 

Closest to the Infinity Engine games on console is probably Tactical RPGs like Final Fantasy Tactics and strategy games like XCOM: Enemy Unknown but there are fundamental differences, most stemming from these games being turn based.