alanschu Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) Their employees are not paid by the hour, and they often work in sweat-shop conditions. I know it's awful. Like, I am sick or go on vacation and I still get paid just the same like the rest of my friends that make salaries in other jobs. Also, when my boss says "Allan, I noticed you were working late a couple of days last month. Do you need some help with your tasks? I don't want you getting burnt out." That and the other annoying things like RRSP contribution matching, reimbursements for buying gaming software and hardware (EA gave me money for contributing to Project Eternity). Never mind that they still feed me when I do work late. Or that time that I sustained a serious concussion playing ball hockey and was bed ridden for 2 weeks with post concussion symptoms and they said "don't worry about work or money. Just worry about getting better" and accommodating the 2 weeks of half days after that as I slowly got better. Or when my personal life went into shambles in early 2012 with huge fractures in my social structure and I was given free access to a professional to help me through that. I'm sure many people in sweatshops look over at me and go "dude, we're totally the same." But I'm sure pre-EA BioWare was a beacon of proper working hours and non-"sweatshop" conditions, right? Fans don't care about employee working conditions in the slightest, all they care about is whether or not they like the game. Plenty of people here that enjoy games that are oblivious to the fact that they were made on an 80 hour work week for over a year with epic employee attrition after the fact when they realize it's not sustainable long term. Edited October 31, 2013 by alanschu 6
Malcador Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Was wondering how long he'd take to show up with something like that. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Orogun01 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 EA's the same as all the rest, really. Hm...so maybe we should wish for the entire industry to just die. Yeah, I get it. I often wish that all those guys who wish for the entire industry to die would have their industries die, have to re-specialize, take new classes, see the life their built crumble around them. Do you even know what you're wishing for? Plus, its a little pissy to have such an exaggerated reaction to someone making games that you don't like. Can't you wish for more of the games you like instead of pissing one everyone else's fun? 1 I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you.
Malcador Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I guess I need to use smilies more. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
alanschu Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Was wondering how long he'd take to show up with something like that. Had to wait for me to wake up first As this sweatshop worker starts his day at 10 PM (I choose to work 10-7 since work offers me that flexibility. Some choose to work 7-4 instead). Running a bit late today though as I had to remember how to tie my black belt for the Ryu costume I'm wearing today.
Cultist Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) Sweatshops? Really? I never heared about players complaining about EA having awful working conditions. Because majority of complains are about ruined franchises, Shyamalan quality games and being Fecal Midas, turning everything they touch into ****. Edited October 31, 2013 by Cultist
Malcador Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Interesting hours. That'd be a nice option for me as no f**king people would be around here calling or emailing me, though I would miss being able to use the food courts and coffee shop (no coffee machine here). Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Keyrock Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 How dare you, Alan! How dare you come in here with reasonable thinking and rational accounts! The internet is for wild overreactions, sweeping generalizations, doomsaying, trolling, and occasionally funny memes. We'll have none of that rational thinking here, mister. Now go to the corner and think about what you've done. 3 RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks
BruceVC Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Their employees are not paid by the hour, and they often work in sweat-shop conditions. But I'm sure pre-EA BioWare was a beacon of proper working hours and non-"sweatshop" conditions, right? Fans don't care about employee working conditions in the slightest, all they care about is whether or not they like the game. Plenty of people here that enjoy games that are oblivious to the fact that they were made on an 80 hour work week for over a year with epic employee attrition after the fact when they realize it's not sustainable long term. Holy Smoke Alan, are you being serious about the 80 hour work week. That's 16 hours a day if you only work Monday- Friday? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Malcador Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Employees have to push back eventually. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
JFSOCC Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Their employees are not paid by the hour, and they often work in sweat-shop conditions. I know it's awful. Like, I am sick or go on vacation and I still get paid just the same like the rest of my friends that make salaries in other jobs. Also, when my boss says "Allan, I noticed you were working late a couple of days last month. Do you need some help with your tasks? I don't want you getting burnt out." That and the other annoying things like RRSP contribution matching, reimbursements for buying gaming software and hardware (EA gave me money for contributing to Project Eternity). Never mind that they still feed me when I do work late. Or that time that I sustained a serious concussion playing ball hockey and was bed ridden for 2 weeks with post concussion symptoms and they said "don't worry about work or money. Just worry about getting better" and accommodating the 2 weeks of half days after that as I slowly got better. Or when my personal life went into shambles in early 2012 with huge fractures in my social structure and I was given free access to a professional to help me through that. I'm sure many people in sweatshops look over at me and go "dude, we're totally the same." But I'm sure pre-EA BioWare was a beacon of proper working hours and non-"sweatshop" conditions, right? Fans don't care about employee working conditions in the slightest, all they care about is whether or not they like the game. Plenty of people here that enjoy games that are oblivious to the fact that they were made on an 80 hour work week for over a year with epic employee attrition after the fact when they realize it's not sustainable long term. Well I'm glad to be wrong about that then. I've read some awful stories. Still the benefits you describe are pretty standard here in the Netherlands. (except maybe giving you money to spend on P:E) Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.---Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons.
Lexx Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I am wondering why EA gave you money for Project Eternity. "only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die."
alanschu Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Holy Smoke Alan, are you being serious about the 80 hour work week. That's 16 hours a day if you only work Monday- Friday? This is fairly common throughout the games industry that hours can be pretty extreme. I know a lot of places are trying to get better at it, but like there was the #RyzeFacts thing that happened earlier where people were getting on the dev for coming across as being proud of supplying over 10,000 crunch meals (and I agree that that isn't something to be proud of). All of the crunch (maybe 10-20 days in the last 2 years) I have worked on DAI so far, though, has been voluntary (i.e. I really wanted to get some stuff done because my plan for how long it'd take for me to get some tasking done wasn't accurate). I don't mind doing it because I don't do it much, and it's because I want to help make the game be really good. I could make more money elsewhere (especially in Oil rich Alberta), but I am still very comfortably compensated and frankly the work culture (I got randomly high fived by people in the hallway because they actually know who Ryu is) and so forth is just more enjoyable for me. My point was just that if anyone wants to hold EA to the fire for its sweatshop, I think people are being a bit discriminating in how they apply their concern for the poor workers. 3
alanschu Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I am wondering why EA gave you money for Project Eternity. BioWare offers a "gaming rebate" for game related purchases. Normally it's just me dumping dozens of printed Steam receipts (I get $100 per year). 1
NOK222 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Their employees are not paid by the hour, and they often work in sweat-shop conditions. I know it's awful. Like, I am sick or go on vacation and I still get paid just the same like the rest of my friends that make salaries in other jobs. Also, when my boss says "Allan, I noticed you were working late a couple of days last month. Do you need some help with your tasks? I don't want you getting burnt out." That and the other annoying things like RRSP contribution matching, reimbursements for buying gaming software and hardware (EA gave me money for contributing to Project Eternity). Never mind that they still feed me when I do work late. Or that time that I sustained a serious concussion playing ball hockey and was bed ridden for 2 weeks with post concussion symptoms and they said "don't worry about work or money. Just worry about getting better" and accommodating the 2 weeks of half days after that as I slowly got better. Or when my personal life went into shambles in early 2012 with huge fractures in my social structure and I was given free access to a professional to help me through that. I'm sure many people in sweatshops look over at me and go "dude, we're totally the same." But I'm sure pre-EA BioWare was a beacon of proper working hours and non-"sweatshop" conditions, right? Fans don't care about employee working conditions in the slightest, all they care about is whether or not they like the game. Plenty of people here that enjoy games that are oblivious to the fact that they were made on an 80 hour work week for over a year with epic employee attrition after the fact when they realize it's not sustainable long term. Well I'm glad to be wrong about that then. I've read some awful stories. Still the benefits you describe are pretty standard here in the Netherlands. (except maybe giving you money to spend on P:E) Canada Eh? We're not talking about Bioware Edmonton. But EA at large, who is an American company and thus have "American values" in their work. Or can you tell me that your conditions are the same for all the other EA locations in the States? No right? Ka-ka-ka-ka-Cocaine!
HoonDing Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Their employees are not paid by the hour, and they often work in sweat-shop conditions. But I'm sure pre-EA BioWare was a beacon of proper working hours and non-"sweatshop" conditions, right? Fans don't care about employee working conditions in the slightest, all they care about is whether or not they like the game. Plenty of people here that enjoy games that are oblivious to the fact that they were made on an 80 hour work week for over a year with epic employee attrition after the fact when they realize it's not sustainable long term. Holy Smoke Alan, are you being serious about the 80 hour work week. That's 16 hours a day if you only work Monday- Friday? Imagine being born in modern Japan and being subjected to crunchtime your entire life. 2 The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Monte Carlo Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Developers being whipped to work harder 24/7 in tiny cells... amuses me.
BruceVC Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Holy Smoke Alan, are you being serious about the 80 hour work week. That's 16 hours a day if you only work Monday- Friday? This is fairly common throughout the games industry that hours can be pretty extreme. I know a lot of places are trying to get better at it, but like there was the #RyzeFacts thing that happened earlier where people were getting on the dev for coming across as being proud of supplying over 10,000 crunch meals (and I agree that that isn't something to be proud of). All of the crunch (maybe 10-20 days in the last 2 years) I have worked on DAI so far, though, has been voluntary (i.e. I really wanted to get some stuff done because my plan for how long it'd take for me to get some tasking done wasn't accurate). I don't mind doing it because I don't do it much, and it's because I want to help make the game be really good. I could make more money elsewhere (especially in Oil rich Alberta), but I am still very comfortably compensated and frankly the work culture (I got randomly high fived by people in the hallway because they actually know who Ryu is) and so forth is just more enjoyable for me. My point was just that if anyone wants to hold EA to the fire for its sweatshop, I think people are being a bit discriminating in how they apply their concern for the poor workers. Thanks for sharing, I have to say that's an impressive work ethos. Things can't be that bad at Bioware if people are prepared to work those hours. Nice one "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
kirottu Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 All of the crunch (maybe 10-20 days in the last 2 years) I have worked on DAI so far, though, has been voluntary (i.e. I really wanted to get some stuff done because my plan for how long it'd take for me to get some tasking done wasn't accurate). I don't mind doing it because I don't do it much, and it's because I want to help make the game be really good. It's official. Everything bad about DAI is going to be alanschu's fault. 4 This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
BruceVC Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Their employees are not paid by the hour, and they often work in sweat-shop conditions. But I'm sure pre-EA BioWare was a beacon of proper working hours and non-"sweatshop" conditions, right? Fans don't care about employee working conditions in the slightest, all they care about is whether or not they like the game. Plenty of people here that enjoy games that are oblivious to the fact that they were made on an 80 hour work week for over a year with epic employee attrition after the fact when they realize it's not sustainable long term. Holy Smoke Alan, are you being serious about the 80 hour work week. That's 16 hours a day if you only work Monday- Friday? Imagine being born in modern Japan and being subjected to crunchtime your entire life. That's a good photo but as far as I remember those aren't the work conditions of people in Japan, this photo is a picture of cheap hotel accommodation that people use as normal hotel rooms are very expensive. 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Malcador Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 And the whole concept of karoshi. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
alanschu Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Well I'm glad to be wrong about that then. I've read some awful stories. Still the benefits you describe are pretty standard here in the Netherlands. (except maybe giving you money to spend on P:E) I'm not saying that there's anything special about the benefits. From what I can tell compared to a lot of my friends that work other places, things seem "pretty equivalent." For a lot of positions compensation may not be quite as high as equivalent programming/producing/QA jobs in other fields, but frankly a lot of that is simply a degree of supply and demand. We have had people apply for contract QA positions with experience from other fields and they'll be "whoa this isn't paid as much as I thought" and it's mostly just "well, we have 3 openings and 80 applicants." (even just in Edmonton). The circumstances around contract people are the most challenging and areas I hope can get better though.
Orogun01 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Holy Smoke Alan, are you being serious about the 80 hour work week. That's 16 hours a day if you only work Monday- Friday? This is fairly common throughout the games industry that hours can be pretty extreme. I know a lot of places are trying to get better at it, but like there was the #RyzeFacts thing that happened earlier where people were getting on the dev for coming across as being proud of supplying over 10,000 crunch meals (and I agree that that isn't something to be proud of). All of the crunch (maybe 10-20 days in the last 2 years) I have worked on DAI so far, though, has been voluntary (i.e. I really wanted to get some stuff done because my plan for how long it'd take for me to get some tasking done wasn't accurate). I don't mind doing it because I don't do it much, and it's because I want to help make the game be really good. I could make more money elsewhere (especially in Oil rich Alberta), but I am still very comfortably compensated and frankly the work culture (I got randomly high fived by people in the hallway because they actually know who Ryu is) and so forth is just more enjoyable for me. My point was just that if anyone wants to hold EA to the fire for its sweatshop, I think people are being a bit discriminating in how they apply their concern for the poor workers. I think most of the first hand accounts of bad conditions at EA come from workers from the Tiburon division, from project mismanagement to being woken in the middle of the night and asked to come to the office. Some odd and aggravating behavior but nothing as systematic as the conditions of a workshop I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you.
Hurlshort Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Canada Eh? We're not talking about Bioware Edmonton. But EA at large, who is an American company and thus have "American values" in their work. Or can you tell me that your conditions are the same for all the other EA locations in the States? No right? EA is a very large company, so generalizing the entire corporate culture as a sweatshop is a bad idea. It is safe to say that they've had development houses in the past that were badly managed from an HR perspective, but I haven't heard any horror stories from EA in a good number of years. 1
alanschu Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I think most of the first hand accounts of bad conditions at EA come from workers from the Tiburon division, from project mismanagement to being woken in the middle of the night and asked to come to the office. Some odd and aggravating behavior but nothing as systematic as the conditions of a workshop I could see it. Stuff like this can happen at a lot of places. I hear stories about a lot of other studios, and even stories about how BioWare used to be and so forth. I think the industry can definitely use some maturation here across the whole front. Although I think it's also reflective that EA isn't as collective as some people think. How BioWare does QA, for example, is a lot different than pretty much any other studio does it, let alone other EA studios.
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