Update #56: Paladins and Wild Orlans

[zimcub]

I'm curious, will the AI be smart enough to have melee fighters pile on the party's Paladin? Seems like the Paladin is a high value target in the front line of combat, but historically, Infinity engine games have had issues with ensuring the that AI doesn't just fixate on a target that is invulnerable to the particular attack it's using or chasing around targets it can't hit while getting picked apart by ranged PCs.

I don't really find anything wrong with such AI. Some people call it cheesing but i call it tactics. You can easly make an AI smart enough that it always attacks your weakest fighters or mages and healers first, but then what's the point of having them in the pary at all if all you will do with them is run away.

If 5 melee group on 1 paladin he's going to go down pretty fast, or take so much damage that you will be too scared to even get him close for the rest of the fight, because they will turn on him as soon as he comes close again. I rather like the design where the AI has overpowering stats and you need to rely on tactics to get through the fight by making sure the members with highest defensees takes the blows first, and supporting them with magic at the back.

[casa]

Gawd f...ing dammit, the Update is blocked in Germany... how I hate this GEMA/Youtube silliness! 

[JR.9613]

     The Orlan designs look really nice...

 

They remind me of elves from cartoons in 80's.

 

     I did think of the 70's Hobbit movie when I saw them (the Wild variant at least), but I don't think these are anywhere near as bad as those.

I am just glad that there is going to be a shorter race, because I could never bring myself to play a D&D Halfling (They aren't Hobbits, people!).

 

    As for the Paladin information, I think it will be a nice change. The whole Paladin-being-devoted-to-some-random-god thing had no depth to me because 

the gods that the Paladins served never had much back story. I don't know if it makes me care enough to play a Paladin though...

Edited June 19, 2013 by JR.9613

[kenup]

The Orlans are a bit too furry like for my taste.    I was expecting something more troll like in appearance, when I was reading their descriptions before.

 

Update by Josh Sawyer, Project Director
 
Paladins have a strong tradition in FRPGs.  While the class represents different things to different players, it often conjures images of legendary European figures like the Twelve Peers of Charlemagne, El Cid, and the Knights of the Round Table.  Players who like playing paladins often think of them as devoted, principled, brave, and unrelenting.  They stand out because of their single-mindedness and unwavering dedication to their cause.
 
In Project Eternity, we wanted paladins to maintain their sense of selfless passion and zeal without being bound to concepts like "alignment" or a universal moral code.  We also wanted their mechanics to be distinctive from the other classes while reinforcing their role in the world.  Area designer Bobby Null has always liked the marshal class from D&D 3.5, which is conceptually similar to the warlord in 4E: combat leaders who are at their best when they are augmenting their teammates.  This is the approach that I took when developing Project Eternity's paladins.  They have persistent modal auras, strong single-target healing and buff abilities (contrasting the broad AoE effects of clerics), and can passively grant bonuses to teammates in close proximity.
 
In the game's lore, paladins are zealous champions of a cause that may be religious, philosophical, or cultural in nature.[...] They set standards for selfless dedication, unwavering loyalty, and inspiring leadership[...] Even among orders where the chosen cause is perceived as bleak or malevolent, paladins always place the cause ahead[...]

And Paladins gonna Lawful Stupid paladin, I guess. Though that's what Paladins are supposed to do, probably, this doesn't make them more attractive to me.

Edited June 19, 2013 by kenup

[Infinitron]

Gawd f...ing dammit, the Update is blocked in Germany... how I hate this GEMA/Youtube silliness! 

 

The video isn't made by Obsidian. It's just a song.

[Raoul]

I don't really find anything wrong with such AI. Some people call it cheesing but i call it tactics. You can easly make an AI smart enough that it always attacks your weakest fighters or mages and healers first, but then what's the point of having them in the pary at all if all you will do with them is run away.

If 5 melee group on 1 paladin he's going to go down pretty fast, or take so much damage that you will be too scared to even get him close for the rest of the fight, because they will turn on him as soon as he comes close again. I rather like the design where the AI has overpowering stats and you need to rely on tactics to get through the fight by making sure the members with highest defensees takes the blows first, and supporting them with magic at the back.

 

Call me silly, but "bait them with the invulnerable PC" stops being a tactic once you use it on the fifth group of enemy NPCs. Sure, it make sense when you are attacking wild dogs that are using strength of numbers as a strategy, but against equally leveled sentient  enemies it always smelled like an exploit, even if BG2 made it more or least mandatory to win.

 

If "run in and draw aggro with the monk, sit him inside the paladin's buffing aura while the enemy pummel him, and after the monk has powered up from the beating, deploy his nuke" wins 90% of battles, the devs will have to balance around it and we're back to BG2's reload fests if you didn't cheese all the battles.

[casa]

 

Gawd f...ing dammit, the Update is blocked in Germany... how I hate this GEMA/Youtube silliness! 

 

The video isn't made by Obsidian. It's just a song.

 

 

Oh? Alright, don't mind me then. 

[Monte Carlo]

I agree with the Paladin's barking orders idea... and sure it can be floating text doesn't have to be voiced. The sheer awesomeness of potential dialogue excites me greatly. Your paladin's orders could be decided by your voice-set. for example 'Gentle Human' could issue motivational encouragement ("one more sword swing... that's *brilliant*) whilst gruff human might bark "call that a swordswing you tree-hugging bag of turd? HARDER!!!"

 

OK my examples are crap but I'm in a hurry and I'm not MCA.

[Keyrock]

Dang, I really love the Wild Orlans models, they look fantastic.

 

As for the paladin, the mechanics sound really promising.  It sounds like there will be quite a few classes that can provide various buffs to the party.  I'm all for that.  I especially like the Shake It Off mechanic of the stamina gained being partially temporary.

[zimcub]

 

Call me silly, but "bait them with the invulnerable PC" stops being a tactic once you use it on the fifth group of enemy NPCs. Sure, it make sense when you are attacking wild dogs that are using strength of numbers as a strategy, but against equally leveled sentient  enemies it always smelled like an exploit, even if BG2 made it more or least mandatory to win.

 

 

If "run in and draw aggro with the monk, sit him inside the paladin's buffing aura while the enemy pummel him, and after the monk has powered up from the beating, deploy his nuke" wins 90% of battles, the devs will have to balance around it and we're back to BG2's reload fests if you didn't cheese all the battles.

 

I don't really remeber being able to be invulnerable in Bg2 even the meatshields you were using had to run for cover and switch bewen tanking sometimes, unless you outleveld them. This is something you would never be able to do if the AI was smart enough that every time you bring your wounded melee back in to the fight they would just focus on him again.

Or are you are talking about the fighter/wiz multicalss, which is a simple solution; don't add invunrability spells/armor to the game.

 

As for the monk situation you descibed, i doubt it will be like that because i doubt he will be able to 1-2 shot enemies and he would die pretty fast after that. The passive aura bonuses are most likely very minor since they affect the whole group not just specific person.

 

However I see nothing wrong with the tactic in Bg2 or IWD2 where you could send your rogue to backstab and send a fireball right at him (high reflex save) when the group started chasing him, because while it did some damage it didn't really kill that many and you had to get him to safety again.

 

If AI is going to just direct all the archers/gunners at your mages then at the start of every fight you will have to send your mage away and he will be uselses for the rest of the fight.

And as soon as your healers come to help the wounded they will be mowed down.

 

The best combat i find is when you can evenly spred the damage across your party, and for that you need to have some sort of control on who will take damage.

[J.E. Sawyer]

 

The "foundational" paladins in this part of the world were the legendary elite guards of Darcozzi Palace in the Grand Empire of Vailia

i'm not that huge of a fan of the fact that your class is tied to a specific single order, and that you will probably get associated with it even if you don't like it.

I think the same for monks...

 

Paladins and monks are not tied to the foundation orders.

[Archmage Silver]

Wild Orlans are looking good, about time we got a wookie reference in here! What's your name stranger? *Growr!* Oh, Zaalbar?

The paladin abilities sound good to me - I like the fact that they're more tactical instead of just being "smash button" abilities. Gameplay-wise the limitations placed on Reviving Exhortation and Shake It Off seem reasonable and should go a good ways toward making sure that all the classes remain balanced in terms of power.

[Avaruz]

The paladins sound interesting on paper, but one can only guess how the class will eventually play and feel in the game.

Combat may not necessarily be the most prominent feature for this type of game, but I hope you put effort into making it balanced and interesting.

 

The Orlan race is looking very good. :]

Edited June 19, 2013 by Avaruz

[Fearabbit]

Great update. I love the description of the paladins and I think they're much more interesting than they are in D&D. I don't actually think of them as drill sergeants, they sound more like very inspirational, charismatic leaders. Like a bard without a lute.

Actually... yep, I think I know who this reminds me of.

 

And the orlans? Well, you had me with the cipher detective. Orlans are like awesome hobbits (with a bit of hobgoblin) and I seriously can't wait to play one. More interested in the Hearth type at the moment, but maybe that'll change when we get to the druid class. (There was a druid class, wasn't there?)

 

 

 

Effective in what way?

Both are front-line melee warriors, and can be built in different ways.

 

A paladin that sacrifices his boosting-powers for offense/defense should match a fighter IMHO. Altough it's not a simple balance, since so many factors some in.

 

 

But aren't you simply playing a fighter then? If you don't use the abilities that make the paladin what he is, then you just want a fighter that is called "paladin".

[Raoul]

I don't really remeber being able to be invulnerable in Bg2 even the meatshields you were using had to run for cover and switch bewen tanking sometimes, unless you outleveld them. This is something you would never be able to do if the AI was smart enough that every time you bring your wounded melee back in to the fight they would just focus on him again.

 

Or are you are talking about the fighter/wiz multicalss, which is a simple solution; don't add invunrability spells/armor to the game.

 

As for the monk situation you descibed, i doubt it will be like that because i doubt he will be able to 1-2 shot enemies and he would die pretty fast after that. The passive aura bonuses are most likely very minor since they affect the whole group not just specific person.

 

However I see nothing wrong with the tactic in Bg2 or IWD2 where you could send your rogue to backstab and send a fireball right at him (high reflex save) when the group started chasing him, because while it did some damage it didn't really kill that many and you had to get him to safety again.

 

If AI is going to just direct all the archers/gunners at your mages then at the start of every fight you will have to send your mage away and he will be uselses for the rest of the fight.

And as soon as your healers come to help the wounded they will be mowed down.

 

The best combat i find is when you can evenly spred the damage across your party, and for that you need to have some sort of control on who will take damage.

 

The problem I have with those tactics is that they are puzzle-oriented. The idea is that you canvas, plan your strategy and execute. If you fail, you try again, using the knowledge from you prior attempt to refine your tactics. The majority of the late game encounters in BG2 fit this model, you had to memorize spell sequences, plan your buff according to the monster you know will spawn. Sometimes you could play it by ear, but often that meant you'd only win if you got lucky on rolls.

 

I've always thought combat worked out better when the situation developed organically and couldn't be solved via brute force.

 

The near invulnerable character I was thinking about in BG2, is the thread's namesake, the Paladin. A high level Paladin in BG2 had a low enough AC that only a handful of monsters could hit it, depending on their subclass, they could have enough immunities to shrug off any debuff and many late game enemies had further penalties due to being "evil". 

[zimcub]

The problem I have with those tactics is that they are puzzle-oriented. The idea is that you canvas, plan your strategy and execute. If you fail, you try again, using the knowledge from you prior attempt to refine your tactics. The majority of the late game encounters in BG2 fit this model, you had to memorize spell sequences, plan your buff according to the monster you know will spawn. Sometimes you could play it by ear, but often that meant you'd only win if you got lucky on rolls.

 

I've always thought combat worked out better when the situation developed organically and couldn't be solved via brute force.

 

The near invulnerable character I was thinking about in BG2, is the thread's namesake, the Paladin. A high level Paladin in BG2 had a low enough AC that only a handful of monsters could hit it, depending on their subclass, they could have enough immunities to shrug off any debuff and many late game enemies had further penalties due to being "evil". 

Well yeah late game was like that but only because the overall dificulty of the game was that high, if you set the slider to easiest you could even complete first time without dieing, (if you at least know how spells and rolls work).

 

But i fail to see how smarter AI will prevent this; the reason it was puzzle oriented was mainly because you didn't know what spells they were going to cast, which could sometimes criple your whole party. If they were smarter, than you wouldn't even be able to prepare acordingly because the AI would see right through it.

 

But i persoanly enjoied the puzzle challange of the game, i kind of don't want to just breeze through it, i like that it forces me to think on what i could have done different, and because no battle was the same it has such a good replay value.

I feel like you are more brute forcing the game if you overpower through it without any puzzle solving. I'm just thinking that if you want to complete it on first go then there is always an easier setting. I just wish that it still has that puzzle solving quality on harder setting.

 

But like i said, if you make the AI smart enough to know who to kill first then, how do you plan to make classes that are weak to missile (or other type) damage useful? The only thing you will be able to do with them is keep them at a safe distance out of the fight.

[Eiphel]

Well, I've never really been engaged by Paladins as a distinct class. To me I never saw why they weren't just a variant of Fighter. Clearly they have a lot of fans though, and they sound pretty much the same as they are elsewhere, so I'll assume they're satisfying the folk they're meant to. Their mechanical style sounds potentially pretty neat, but they're not a big draw for me.

 

Orlans, on the other hand, I am all about. I am super excited by Orlans and that Orlan detective is my favourite piece of concept work to come out of the whole of PE so far. I love the look of the wild Orlans, being just how I imagined them, but I'm disappointed that the Hearth Orlans seem to have been more humanised and now are looking a bit like 'short hairy elf'. The renders in this update don't capture what grabbed me about that original detective art, alas.

 

As regards the wild Orlans, I do really hope that the racial prejudice aspect will be handled with more nuance than I've ever really seen it be in other games. I've yet to see racial prejudice be well portrayed in any game.

[Suen]

But like i said, if you make the AI smart enough to know who to kill first then, how do you plan to make classes that are weak to missile (or other type) damage useful? The only thing you will be able to do with them is keep them at a safe distance out of the fight.

Taunt? A tank can force the enemies to change target.

[zimcub]

If i remeber correctly they won't make any tank specific abilities.

[PsykoKiwi]

 

"With a big iron on his hip..."

 Oh Lord that song. It has repeated so many times... my ears will bleed!!

[Tsuga C]

I understand the wild orlans being hirsute, but why is their skin so wrinkled, too?  Did great-to-the-Nth grandma Orleanna have way too much hard cider at the harvest festival and wake up next to a Shar Pei?

[Jackalmonkey]

Mechanically the Paladin seems perfectly elegant and the abilities concert well around the class role. These updates are amazing. A caveat with some of the terminology, though:

 

Reviving Exhortation

Zealous Barrage

Faith and Conviction

Coordinated Attacks

Shake It Off 

Inspiring Triumph

Zealous March

 

That's a lot of adjectives, an entire phrase, and why settle for faith when you get conviction into the mix for the low cost of two extra words? You're going to have ample opportunities to purple your prose without bruising the abilities too. Why not:

 

Revive

Zeal

Conviction

Coordination

Endure!

Triumph

Zeal

 

What, flavor? A few well-chosen words in the context of each other's company will do that job just fine. There's no reason why every tooltip needs to be like busting open a fortune cookie. In a game that seems fairly elegant - and in which we're already going to have a massive glossary introduced by the lore alone - I am happy to settle for simpler ability names.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Jackalmonkey

[Gumbercules]

I understand the wild orlans being hirsute, but why is their skin so wrinkled, too?  Did great-to-the-Nth grandma Orleanna have way too much hard cider at the harvest festival and wake up next to a Shar Pei?

 

I've seen multiple complaints around the internet that the wild orlans look wrinkled or scarred rather than hairy, but I think it's just because we're seeing a zoomed-in, colorless Z-Brush sculpture of what will be a quite small in-game model. If they want to get across that the wild orlans are hairy, they need to exaggerate that hair a bit, and it looks weird when viewed up close.

[Monte Carlo]

Welcome back jackalmonkey!

[Keyrock]

I understand the wild orlans being hirsute, but why is their skin so wrinkled, too?  Did great-to-the-Nth grandma Orleanna have way too much hard cider at the harvest festival and wake up next to a Shar Pei?

I just assume that's hair on their face.  I don't think it's wrinkles.