The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt [2014]

[Meshugger]

Strange, as i thought that the writing in Witcher 1 reminded me most about daily life, more than any other RPG. But i live in a country that is literally dark and gritty during half the year, so that pretty much explains itself.

[melkathi]

The thing I disliked about the first Witcher's writing is how hamfisted it was.  "Oh look, we're dark and mature and racism exists.  Here's an obligatory scene of a dwarf getting picked on by big bad humans and Geralt can choose to help the Dwarf or do nothing at all.  So reaaaaal."

Which leaves us with Planescape: Torment and ... Alpha Protocol as the only RPGs with good writing?

 

But the example you are mentioning kinda is realistic. In a situation where someone is being victimised you only have two choices: help them or look the other way. What did you want? Option 3: join the tormentors? That isn't very realistic either.

[Zoraptor]

Clearly what is best is a KOTOR2 style meta-narrator to chastise you for whichever choice you make (<3 Kreia)

The dialogue in the first Witcher tended to be a bit stilted, especially in the first chapter. That was probably down to translation, and was much improved in TW2. But throughout the game there was a sense that there was some 'stage direction' being left in, like a forum post using [/pretentious pontificating] as a signifier. Still, I'm not really sure how much you can use subtlety and how much you have to bludgeon people over the head with stuff, I've seen people who didn't get the significance of which sword Jacques got stabbed with at the end and people who thought it was obvious and cheap.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Zoraptor

[Nonek]

The thing I disliked about the first Witcher's writing is how hamfisted it was.  "Oh look, we're dark and mature and racism exists.  Here's an obligatory scene of a dwarf getting picked on by big bad humans and Geralt can choose to help the Dwarf or do nothing at all.  So reaaaaal."

 

The game literally reminded me of my own attempts to make a "dark, edgy, and mature" module with the NWN toolset.  It came across as the the first attempt at writing for an RPG.  Maybe some of that was lost in translation, but ugh.

 

The moment that Lord stated "etcetera etcetera" in a dialogue line, I realized the writing was so much intended to be good, but rather campy, and I enjoyed the game much more after that point.  I laughed at the dialogue a lot in that game, but ultimately I felt like I was laughing with the game, instead of at the game.

 

I just felt bad for the humans because I recognised Mr Chivay from his spiked hair, but the issue of non humans being opressed by their conquerors is fairly endemic in Sapkowski's writings, but obviously that scene was tied up with the scoiatael sub plot unfurling in the outskirts, Zoltan wasn't there for no reason. I think they did the scoiatael some justice in the first game, I liked the proud and nihilistic Yaevinn as a character, though despising his agenda of martyrdom, one of the few settings where I can tolerate elves.

 

I can't remember a lord saying etcetera, unless it was DeWett reading out Foltest's titles, the king of Temeria has rather a lot of them since his victory at Brenna, he was named protector and such of near a dozen states apparently (as well as his holdings within the country itself.)

[Humanoid]

What's the problem with saying "etc, etc" anyway? I've heard it in conversation more than a few times. But yeah, the dialogue/VA did have a stilted feel, I don't particularly remember any specifics but have the feeling it was more down to dialogue flow as opposed to individual lines.

[alanschu]

 

The thing I disliked about the first Witcher's writing is how hamfisted it was.  "Oh look, we're dark and mature and racism exists.  Here's an obligatory scene of a dwarf getting picked on by big bad humans and Geralt can choose to help the Dwarf or do nothing at all.  So reaaaaal."

Which leaves us with Planescape: Torment and ... Alpha Protocol as the only RPGs with good writing?

 

But the example you are mentioning kinda is realistic. In a situation where someone is being victimised you only have two choices: help them or look the other way. What did you want? Option 3: join the tormentors? That isn't very realistic either.

 

Eh, see I think this is the problem.  I went into The Witcher with all this talk about how "realistic" it is and did not come away with it at all.

 

Your options aren't just "Look away or murder the assailants" in real life.  Heck, just using The Witcher 2 as an example, I'd bet there'd be a way to use persuade/intimidate/Axii sign in the conversation as well.

 

It just wasn't presented in a way that I found interesting.  I'm much more interested in systemic/institutional racism being depicted (which games in general don't deliver on very well).  In The Witcher, it was more of a "look look, we're dark and mature! See!" and at that point it comes across as trying too hard.  Which doesn't strike me as feeling very realistic.  Nevermind the complete about face of characters like Siegfried that have no problems acting completely out of character simply to show "Look.  Real consequences for your actions!  This guy that was otherwise decidedly NOT a belligerent racist to you, that you have helped in the past, is now a mindless zealot with no genuinely good explanation because you didn't choose the Order!"

 

PST and AP are two of the better written RPGs out there, but even something like Arcanum I thought did quite well with having an environment that included more "uncomfortable" (I hesitate to use the word "mature") topics that were depicted in more creative ways (why Bates was so successful and the burden of his secret, a dwarf that committed an atrocity and shaved his beard and pretended to be a gnome to protect himself and stuff like that).  Nevermind a game like KOTOR 2 which is also pretty well written (if abridged).

[alanschu]

I can't remember a lord saying etcetera, unless it was DeWett reading out Foltest's titles, the king of Temeria has rather a lot of them since his victory at Brenna, he was named protector and such of near a dozen states apparently (as well as his holdings within the country itself.)

 

 

What's the problem with saying "etc, etc" anyway? I've heard it in conversation more than a few times.

 

 

It could very well be just a lost in translation thing, but it's here:

 

It's a colloquialism that I usually find jarring when in fantasy games.  The moment I saw it, it was so setting breaking for me that I was (perhaps ironically) able to enjoy the writing for the rest of the game, since I was no longer of the opinion that it takes itself seriously.

Edited February 26, 2013 by alanschu

[Nonek]

Ah it's a matter of a percieved anachronism then, I can understand that, there are some words that have a cultural bias built into them such as my aversion to OK being in any fantasy game.

 

In point of fact I agree that there should have been an option to intimidate Zoltan's attackers, but I don't think that portion of the game was about racism at all, it was about Haren Brogg trying to cover his tracks, after playing both sides of the Order and Scoiatael against each other for profit. You get more clues to this from Vivaldi later on, don't know if it was an abandoned quest or just overly subtle plotting as Zoraptor suggests. For institutionalised racism being displayed i'd look at Vivaldi, the smith in the Outskirts, little Mahakam and Old Vizima.

 

Siegfried I never thought of as particularly clever and certainly Alvin/Jacque seems to have possessed a certain charisma that may have inflamed his followers, it is good that you can talk him down from his madness however. I wonder if the Grandmaster was able to use his retarded source powers to effect such loyalty amongst his followers, certainly Siegfired slaughtering the innocent was utterly out of character considering his previous actions in the graveyard quest.

 

Watching that clip i'd forgotten what a good looking game the first Witcher was, they really worked wonders with that engine (congrats to Bioware by the way,) Vizima's a very well designed, distinctive and bustling city.

[Zoraptor]

Outright anachronism was pretty rife in The WItcher- fleurs de lys all over the Temerian livery, 'scientific' explanations in a magical world and the like. From what I remember of the two Sapkowski books I've read anachronism is pretty rife in the setting.

 

The only one which bothered me was the discussion in TW2 with respect to genetics.

[BruceVC]

 

I can't remember a lord saying etcetera, unless it was DeWett reading out Foltest's titles, the king of Temeria has rather a lot of them since his victory at Brenna, he was named protector and such of near a dozen states apparently (as well as his holdings within the country itself.)

 

 

>What's the problem with saying "etc, etc" anyway? I've heard it in conversation more than a few times.

 

 

It could very well be just a lost in translation thing, but it's here:

 

It's a colloquialism that I usually find jarring when in fantasy games.  The moment I saw it, it was so setting breaking for me that I was (perhaps ironically) able to enjoy the writing for the rest of the game, since I was no longer of the opinion that it takes itself seriously.

 

Alan are you sure you were playing the English version of the game? I can completely understand how confusing the writing must have been if you ended up playing the Polish version . It must have seemed unintelligable

[alanschu]

I played the English game (it's the only language I speak fluently).  That is, the stuff I linked is exactly what I saw.

 

I know some feel the English VO is hideous and while I'll agree it's not fantastic, I didn't mind it.

 

 

I didn't really find the game confusing.  Just aspects of it that I didn't really think were done all that well (especially in light of the hype).  It really comes across to me as an early attempt at writing, where the second game was clearly a "I've learned from the first game, and can do a much better job in the second" (which they did).

[HoonDing]

The thing I disliked about the first Witcher's writing is how hamfisted it was.  "Oh look, we're dark and mature and racism exists.  Here's an obligatory scene of a dwarf getting picked on by big bad humans and Geralt can choose to help the Dwarf or do nothing at all.  So reaaaaal."

And five minutes later Geralt bangs the barmaid in the abandoned mill.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Drudanae

[BruceVC]

 

The thing I disliked about the first Witcher's writing is how hamfisted it was.  "Oh look, we're dark and mature and racism exists.  Here's an obligatory scene of a dwarf getting picked on by big bad humans and Geralt can choose to help the Dwarf or do nothing at all.  So reaaaaal."

And five minutes later Geralt bangs the barmaid in the abandoned mill.

Well we all deal with the nightmare of racism in our own ways, this was to be expected. This makes Geralt normal and someone we should be able to relate to ?

[melkathi]

 

 

 

 

It could very well be just a lost in translation thing, but it's here:

 

It's a colloquialism that I usually find jarring when in fantasy games.  The moment I saw it, it was so setting breaking for me that I was (perhaps ironically) able to enjoy the writing for the rest of the game, since I was no longer of the opinion that it takes itself seriously.

 

Just that "et cetera" is not a colloquialism. It is a latin phrase that survived to this day and is far from what you try to make it out to be. Perhaps its a sort of "language barrier" or a cultural thing. Over here in the old world, there is nothing strange about that scene you linked. Far from it, a high ranking military man, to prove being above the rabble would make sense to be using a latin phrase instead of saying "and so forth" or something like that. After all, it is part of how those phrases did survive.

 

If you would be talking about the "thou" and "thy" we were plagued with in so many games (I tried replaying Vampire: Redemption... god, those dialogues were painfull), then I could understand the criticism. Or if we were talking about teh blizzard tendency to build in a fake jamaican in every game, that could be seen as immersion breaking as well.

My own pet pieve for example is Leliana's obsession with shopping, which is a far too modern thing for a setting that otherwise tries to be dark fantasy.

The use of et cetera on the other hand is part of the world they are trying to depict and unlike "thou" not a complete anachronism.

 

But it may just be a location thing. The Witcher is more based on central european culture than on D&D and therefor as a setting it may just be more attuned to our reality over here and fail to strike the same chord over there.

[Nonek]

Got to agree with Alanschu that the writing of the second game does leap forward rather dramatically in terms of quality however, from in my opinion being one of the best written rpg's of recent times in the first game, to Obsidian levels of writing in the second, while maintaining a logical and reactive narrative, along with dazzling visuals. Unfortunately in Assassins of Kings I believe that some of the smaller details of the Witcher were overlooked, and i'm of a mind that the slavic folk tale ambience of the first game was lost in the desperate hunt for the Kingslayer.

 

Something I hope to see remedied in the third game, and while i'm on the subject of probably never to be satiated wish fulfillment, i'm also hoping they make the combat turn based. My old hands aren't as quick as they used to be.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Nonek

[alanschu]

 

 

 

 

It could very well be just a lost in translation thing, but it's here:

 

It's a colloquialism that I usually find jarring when in fantasy games.  The moment I saw it, it was so setting breaking for me that I was (perhaps ironically) able to enjoy the writing for the rest of the game, since I was no longer of the opinion that it takes itself seriously.

 

Just that "et cetera" is not a colloquialism. It is a latin phrase that survived to this day and is far from what you try to make it out to be. Perhaps its a sort of "language barrier" or a cultural thing. Over here in the old world, there is nothing strange about that scene you linked. Far from it, a high ranking military man, to prove being above the rabble would make sense to be using a latin phrase instead of saying "and so forth" or something like that. After all, it is part of how those phrases did survive.

 

You undermine your own argument, since there's little reason for me to expect a fictional universe to start using latin phrasing.  Besides, the repetition of the phrase is the colloquialism.  Thing "Yul Brenner" and "The King and I."  There's no value in repeating the phrase, but you're right that it does help come across as smug.

 

With the context of the sentence, however, it's absurd and campy.  Doubly so with the way the voice actor delivered it.  It's a game that clearly isn't taking itself too seriously.  When Lord de Wett says that, he's clearly no longer outraged at Thaler's insolence.  He's become a stage actor that's overacting.  It undermines the seriousness that is allegedly portrayed (to which I counter that, in retrospect, was never truly intended).

 

It's funny, because my interpretation of "et cetera et cetera" is what enabled me to enjoy the game.  You're telling me that I'm interpreting it wrong, and that I really should have considered taking the game much more seriously, to which point I say that the writing is significantly less enjoyable.

Edited February 27, 2013 by alanschu

[Malcador]

Pretty minor thing overall, no ?

[alanschu]

If people think I'm criticizing the game because of "et cetera et cetera" they're wrong.

 

That entire line is what made me realize that the dialogue is supposed to be campy and hamfisted.  Before that I was not enjoying the game's writing.  Once it happened, I enjoyed the game significantly more.

 

 

So sure, it's just one line.  One line that let me enjoy the game.  If you're telling me that I'm wrong in my interpretation, you're telling me that I should have continued thinking that the rest of the game was as poorly written as I was perceiving it.

Edited February 27, 2013 by alanschu

[pmp10]

Unfortunately in Assassins of Kings I believe that some of the smaller details of the Witcher were overlooked, and i'm of a mind that the slavic folk tale ambience of the first game was lost in the desperate hunt for the Kingslayer.

If anything one of the problems with Witcher 2 was that it senselessly attempted to force references to slavic folklore or modern pop-culture.

The end result is only confusion as I doubt many English speakers understood where the 'Elves to the moon' battle-cry came from.

[Malcador]

If people think I'm criticizing the game because of "et cetera et cetera" they're wrong.

 

That entire line is what made me realize that the dialogue is supposed to be campy and hamfisted.  Before that I was not enjoying the game's writing.  Once it happened, I enjoyed the game significantly more.

 

 

So sure, it's just one line.  One line that let me enjoy the game.  If you're telling me that I'm wrong in my interpretation, you're telling me that I should have continued thinking that the rest of the game was as poorly written as I was perceiving it.

 

Well that line having that much significance to you is what's confusing me, but as you do.  Been ages since I played, but I do recall the Chandler and Brown references being a good sign the game wasn't intensely serious (few games are, anyway).

[alanschu]

It's memorable for me because it's the straw that broke the camel's back.  It was the one that I remember making me go "okay, this game actually is not taking itself seriously."

 

The problem I had was that there was so much hype from people that are fans of The Witcher series about how excellent the writing was.  To be fair to them, if they were speaking about the second game (which is well done), that's fair.  I went into the first game after the second had been done.

 

 

I think people are spending too much time focusing on the fact that it was the one line, when all it really was was the catalyst that led me to an epiphany for how I should be interpreting the writing.  Rarely do such catalysts occur without some sort of precondition.  Had I considered the previous aspects of the game to be phenomenal, it'd likely not be noteworthy to me except maybe as an odd line that doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the writing.

 

 

 

I have a good memory and it was something I was actively discussing in a Let's Play on the BSN anyways, which helps solidify it as a catalyst.  Most games have memorable moments for me that are culminations of prior events all building up.

Edited February 27, 2013 by alanschu

[Malcador]

Ah, well then you shouldn't believe hype from players about writing   Wonder if it was a localization problem as well, like the "Triss, babe" line really meant to be something like "Triss, child" (changed that in the EE).

[alanschu]

Could be.  I only played the EE.

 

I think it might frankly just be an opinion of "People liked the game, so they tend to idealize it in some ways."  (which if fine. It's a human thing to do).  Especially after the second game.

[Enoch]

I found the writing in the first Witcher to be very much a mixed bag.  Like Alan, I pretty much hated it for the first dozen hours or so. 

 

But then, right around the end of chapter 2 and early chapter 3, there's a flurry of sidequests that all present variations on the core theme of "how does a monster-hunter decide what is and isn't a monster," and then takes that over the top into "and does he even want to be a monster-hunter in the first place?"  (The talking ghoul; the werewolf bit; the vampire bordello; the old cannibal; the creepy deep-ones worshippers; meeting the princess you'd previously cured of her possession problem; all topped off with Shani trying to pull Geralt into a life of domesticity.) 

 

I love how the game really forces the player to engage with Geralt's role in the gameworld at that point and make decisions based on their understanding and interpretation of that role.  That was far more compelling to me than the game's racism themes or the "Witchers' secrets" macguffin. 

Edited February 27, 2013 by Enoch

[HoonDing]

If the Witcher 2 had kept its predecessor's emphasis on Geralt's personal storyline maybe it wouldn't have managed to bore me to death.

 

Yennefer was name-dropped a couple of times, but just as a side-effect of introducing the Wild Hunt as Ancient Evil.