Torment: Tides of Numenera?

[Nordicus]

i still dont understand why they are doing a kickstarter when they haven't released wasteland 2 yet

Because no medium-to-large size developer waits for the entire development process of Game A to finish before they start Game B

[Brother None]

i still dont understand why they are doing a kickstarter when they haven't released wasteland 2 yet

 

It's not that we want to, it's more that we have to. Videogame production cycles have a natural way of working in which concept artists and writers are pretty much done at this stage, when we're in full production of Wasteland 2. Allowing them to start working on the next project now will give them a long pre-production period and allow us to roll into full production more fluidly once Wasteland 2 is out. Not having such a product pipeline means we'd have to fire the current writer/artist staff, and then after Wasteland 2 is out create an awkward rollover to the next project.

 

Every company works like that, or at least should, Interplay did in the good old days. Some companies just fire most of the team after a product is done and that sucks, because you're destroying your talent pool and experience. The difference between inXile and - say - Obsidian is that inXile is a much smaller developer, and doesn't have other sizable projects to move people to and from. So what's the most natural thing? Rolling into yet another oldschool-style cRPG.

 

"Tides represented by this monument" is what caught my eye. I guess there's a bit more of a story to the name than it might have seemed.

 

Tides are key levers in the C&C system of Torment: ToN. Kevin Saunders explains it here:

 

 

Well, as you have seen by now, we’ve gone with Torment: Tides of Numenera. =) You may wonder what the significance of "Tides" is. (These are not a core Numenera concept, though they are compatible with the setting in multiple ways.) The Tides are key levers (but not the only ones) in the choices and consequences system we’re designing. They could be loosely compared to D&D's alignments or Ultima IV's principles and virtues. But unlike alignments, they are not in direct opposition to each other and unlike the virtues, you won’t necessarily want to achieve them all. Nor can you, really... you’ll have to decide what’s most important to you.

 

The Tides are more nuanced and complex, with the “best” choice for any situation being a personal decision for you (or how you want to play) rather than a decision that we as designers judge. Now, NPCs in the game will certainly judge you based upon their own beliefs and agendas, but we will strive for the game itself to be impartial. We want to provide satisfying reactivity and allow you to explore your own answers, for you to play as you wish and have the game’s story unfold accordingly. We’ll talk more about the Tides down the road and there are aspects of the system for which we’ll be seeking backer input.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Brother None

[Infinitron]

"Digital Version of Cloth Map"

 

That may be the most retarded thing I've ever read.

 

 

 

Cloth maps are most likely mass-produced based off a digital design. The digital copy will have all the art and character of the physical copy, without the wear and tear or the additional cost of a physical good to ship. And if you're going to claim it's not worth the extra $15, keep in mind that's just the additional final reward, and everyone values such things differently.

Yea no ****, but calling it the digital version of a cloth map?

 

Also I find it cute the boxed copy doesn't get beta; way to milk people.

 

 

WTF, dude. Did inXile murder your parents or something? Chillax.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Infinitron

[maggotheart]

$25 minimum pledge seems a tiny bit high (WL2 was 15 and PE was 20), but only $95 for the collectors box is nice. Do we have any kind of time frame for release of the Kickstarter? I'm looking forward to it... though I'm sensing a coming storm of relentless whining from people who seem to feel obligated to hate the idea no matter what, that's already getting tiresome and the kickstarter hasn't even begun yet.

[Infinitron]

$25 minimum pledge seems a tiny bit high (WL2 was 15 and PE was 20), but only $95 for the collectors box is nice. Do we have any kind of time frame for release of the Kickstarter? I'm looking forward to it... though I'm sensing a coming storm of relentless whining from people who seem to feel obligated to hate the idea no matter what, that's already getting tiresome and the kickstarter hasn't even begun yet.

 

PE was also 25. 20 was the early bird pledge.

[maggotheart]

 

$25 minimum pledge seems a tiny bit high (WL2 was 15 and PE was 20), but only $95 for the collectors box is nice. Do we have any kind of time frame for release of the Kickstarter? I'm looking forward to it... though I'm sensing a coming storm of relentless whining from people who seem to feel obligated to hate the idea no matter what, that's already getting tiresome and the kickstarter hasn't even begun yet.

 

PE was also 25. 20 was the early bird pledge.

 

I stand corrected.

[NOK222]

The crowd fund campaign hasn't actually started yet right? 

[TSBasilisk]

No, they took opinions on possible rewards and tiers and assembled that list. When the campaign does go live, those will be the base rewards and add-ons.

[Malekith]

 

You forget how a game like Torment allegedly has a small chance of financial success. By securing the name "Torment" he effectively raises the chances of Kickstarter success, it makes perfect sense to me.

 

So did Wasteland 2, or even Project Eternity - games that also "allegedly [have] a small chance of financial success" that still had no trouble at all making their goals via Kickstarter.  In fact, your statement is misleading because even Feargus notes that Torment eventually made money, even using the publisher model.

 

The problem bigger publishers have is usually one of opportunity cost.  EA or Activision could easily make these more niche games, and probably still turn a profit doing so.  The problem is whether or not it maximizes their profit.  Making a Torment presents an opportunity cost (that I feel is overstated, but alas... only so much I can change at any given time even from the inside).  So if Project Eternity takes $4 million and ends up bringing in $8 million in revenues, you get pretty good return on investment.  But if you take the Obsidian team, through $40 million at them, and they bring in $70 million in revenues, while the ROI is not as high, the absolute revenue is much, much, much higher.

 

Unfortunately it's not as simple as just creating 10 different projects for $4 million a piece.

 

 

What you do illustrate, however, is that the cries of "too many sequels" is pretty disingenuous by gamers.  They have no problems with sequels, as long as they are sequels of games that they like.

This. I think that the gamer's problem is not the sequels per se,but that all the games are the ****ing same. DA2 has more in common with MassEffect than DA:O. Fallout 3 has more in common with Oblivion than F1 and F2. You see the trent? The problem with all genres bleeding in each other is that after a point all the games are exactly the same.

Mass Effect 4 is a sequel.

If Bioware made the same game as a new IP, with diffirent names, diffirent lore and same gameplay,romances and all, what exactly would be the diffirence? I would prefer if they made Mass Effect 4, and along with it a new IP that is completelly different experience.

That is the problem with publisers. In the rare occasions they have a new IP, chances are that is the same with the previous ones.

The CoD crowd is too big and too different to like RPGs. The solution? Let's copy Skyrim instead. DA3,TW3,Cyberpunk,F4,TES5. How long before all RPGs are sandboxes after Bethseda's style?

Edited February 28, 2013 by Malekith

[Tsuga C]

How long before all RPGs are sandboxes after Bethseda's style?

With any luck, never!

[Malekith]

 

How long before all RPGs are sandboxes after Bethseda's style?

With any luck, never!

I hate sandboxes.Many people like them.Both should have games to play. With the current publising model if you don't like the trent of the day direction you are out of luch because,quess what, all the industry goes in the same direction.

That i don't like sandboxes shouldn't mean that i should give up RPGs altogether.

But,at least from the big, AAA games i have no RPG that i want to play after DA3, and with DA3 i'm in a "wait and see" and not "excited" mode

Edited February 28, 2013 by Malekith

[Zoraptor]

I will too, inevitably. End of the day the list of "Torment" features is what I want to see more of in RPGs. I'll just have a slight feeling of needing to shower afterwards.

Or maybe not. There's a world of difference between a $25 buy in for a company with a Proven Record of Excellence like Obsidian and one whose main claim to fame is running a successful kickstarter, and whose game offerings to date have been... hmmm, at best. Difficult to justify a 66% mark up for the Numenera base tier over the WL2 base tier when effectively nothing has changed in the meantime.

 

That's more than 6 Outcasts worth of money.

[Amentep]

Wonder if the markup on the base tiers has anything to do with them not owning the Numenera IP (whereas doesn't Fargo own the WL IP?).

 

I wonder if their plan is to get the crowd-funding done before WL2 ships or after...?

[Tigranes]

Crowdfunding will, most likely, begin very soon, before WL2 is done. They've said that while it's not ideal, this is because otherwise, all the people that worked on WL2 and did the pre-production / design / writing will have no work and nothing to pay them with, and will need to be laid off. Then, when Torment begins, they will likely have moved on, so they would need to hire some new people. 

 

It makes sense in that this is precisely why devs like Obsidian are pretty much negotiating with publishers all year round, so that you always have 2-3 projects at different stages to avoid firing people after each project. Whether they can communicate this good but complicated reasoning in their kickstarter pitch is the question....

[TSBasilisk]

Indeed, it's not an ideal solution, but it's the nature of being an independent game studio. Attempting to launch two dream-project Kickstarters back-to-back is pretty ambitious and may scare some people, so hopefully they explain it well or funding could take a hit from the "you already Kickstarted" crowd. This is one of the projects where hearing more in-depth details about the studio's challenges will probably help.

 

Personally, I hope it's either a smashing hit or a failure. If they get a middling success due to skepticism, it'll limit their available budget, whereas a failure will let them return later and leverage the results of WL2 for another chance at a big return.

 

PS: I just realized that Kickstarter made me learn more about the game industry than anything else. I'm quite relieved I skipped on my childhood dream of being a game designer and went with engineering instead.

[Tigranes]

That's certainly one interesting side-effect. I know when I was young I only began to learn more about the oddities of how the industry is set up (and evolving) when Black Isle went under; nothing like your dream developer making profitable games then being killed off to make you wonder what the hell is going on.

[WDeranged]

I've not been keeping track, is it a foregone conclusion that Torment will be using Unity in a similar fashion to Wasteland 2?  I've been quite attached to the idea of any Torment sequel being more like Project Eternity, maybe they can translate the intricate Numenera art style to 3D but I'm just not sure yet 

 

I'll feel a bit like a traitor if I don't back this project but I'm still uncertain about it, I know Avellone has given it his blessing but I'd like to see him get involved at some point, it'd definitely ease some of my concerns.

[TSBasilisk]

So far as I know, no exact details have been released at the moment. We may find out sooner, but I'd imagine we'll get the main info-dump when the Kickstarter goes live.

[Dream]

Currently they're considering doing the game in 3d and making the conversion to 2d (a la IE games and P:E) a stretch goal.

[WorstUsernameEver]

I've not been keeping track, is it a foregone conclusion that Torment will be using Unity in a similar fashion to Wasteland 2?  I've been quite attached to the idea of any Torment sequel being more like Project Eternity, maybe they can translate the intricate Numenera art style to 3D but I'm just not sure yet 

They're using Unity. Whether it will go full 3d or have pre-rendered backgrounds depends on the final budget (pre-rendered costs more money).

 

source

Edited March 1, 2013 by WorstUsernameEver

[Darkpriest]

I'd rather wait and see the results of the current big KS... WL2 will be one of the big benchmarking points, whether the KS projects can live up to the pitch hype or not.

[Gorth]

Same here. I haven't played anything of Brian Fargos (that I remember) since the original Bards Tale, so if this gets off the ground before I get to play (and determine I'm happy with) Wasteland 2, then it will be a "retail" purchase rather than a pledge.

[BruceVC]

Same here. I haven't played anything of Brian Fargos (that I remember) since the original Bards Tale, so if this gets off the ground before I get to play (and determine I'm happy with) Wasteland 2, then it will be a "retail" purchase rather than a pledge.

 

 

Gorth lets rather be supportive of this endeavor. Its not like $25 is going to result in you not eating or sleeping in the cold?

 

I understand your point but if W2 is a terrible game and you have also pledged to Numenera all it means is you "lost" $25 but by not pledging anything you could potentially effect the foundation and longevity of this type of initiative

 

" Ask not what Numenera can do for you, ask what you can do for this project"

 

 

Pledge Gorth, pledge. Its the right thing to do

[Gorth]

Pledge Gorth, pledge. Its the right thing to do

Sorry. not this time

 

I still regret not pledging for the Shadowrun game, but I honestly forgot that one when it was getting close to its Kickstarter deadline. This one however, I'm very skeptical about the entire concept. I see nothing so far that screams to me "I must have this game!". So I'll wait and see what my Wasteland 2 pledge results in and then judge inxile on those merits

[maggotheart]

 

Pledge Gorth, pledge. Its the right thing to do

Sorry. not this time

 

I still regret not pledging for the Shadowrun game, but I honestly forgot that one when it was getting close to its Kickstarter deadline. This one however, I'm very skeptical about the entire concept. I see nothing so far that screams to me "I must have this game!". So I'll wait and see what my Wasteland 2 pledge results in and then judge inxile on those merits

 

Have you seen the video they released for WL2?!

 

 

I had my doubts but come on - that's just awesome. I'm afraid we're going to have to see a pledge from you, Gorth, there's really nothing I can do.