Boxed edition (I feel like an idiot now)

[AGX-17]

Blizzard took a huge dump on their Collector's Editions by making them trivial, pouring unlimited quantities and only for the Holly Buck

 

You'd think a guy with your profile picture would have respect for the pursuit of the "Holly Buck."

Edited December 18, 2012 by AGX-17

[Felithvian]

To make this simple, have I really lost my chance at getting the boxed version of this game?

 

I would rather ask something different. Have I really lost my chance at getting a decent boxed version?

 

Since Project Eternity pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of the past, we SHOULD get a decent boxed version. I'm talking about those huge cereal boxes. Hell, not only were the manuals gigantic, some games even included a 200 page novella to set up the backstory!

 

 

Nowadays all you get is a DVD and a piece of paper that says "Read the .pdf manual in the DVD".

[Valsuelm]

To make this simple, have I really lost my chance at getting the boxed version of this game?

 

I would rather ask something different. Have I really lost my chance at getting a decent boxed version?

 

Since Project Eternity pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of the past, we SHOULD get a decent boxed version. I'm talking about those huge cereal boxes. Hell, not only were the manuals gigantic, some games even included a 200 page novella to set up the backstory!

 

 

Nowadays all you get is a DVD and a piece of paper that says "Read the .pdf manual in the DVD".

 

Here Here!!!

[Ieo]

Just a few points to keep in mind.

 

Collector's editions by definition have always had limiters: time available, higher cost, number offered. In this case, the CE was limited by all three. The onus is always on the consumer to realize this and drop for it or not (whether or not they can, based on price and such). And yes, I'd interpret that quote to mean all physical items. A retail boxset is physical. The optical disc(s) is physical. Whether a paper box or plastic case--physical. In this situation, it would be wise to assume the stricter straight-up interpretation.

 

I have absolutely no doubt that boxsets will end up going on eBay, both the regular and CE, whether piecemeal or whole.

 

As for a retail box... None of the $4.x million Kickstarter funding can go to the creation and distribution of physical media beyond the actual contribution tiers; this is because it was made very clear that all the creation and shipping charges were bundled in the original KS tier prices.

 

Since the cost of any subsequent physical media creation, packaging, distribution channels (freight and employees to move product), marketing, and rent of competing retail space must come out of subsequent sales... This means either Obsidian must pay out of pocket for simultaneous retail release (and conceptually thus be in the red) or they'll have to wait a while until there's enough profit to cover all of that for a retail stint and hope that the boxes sell to gain profit over cost. Keep in mind that the physical retail channels represent risk.

 

Here's an interesting article from 2008 about what's generally involved in getting software onto retail store shelves and how the developer gets paid: Selling your software in retail stores (all that glitters is not gold)

 

What was the point of Kickstarter again? Oh, right.

 

The only other option is for Obsidian to create physical boxsets and warehouse on their own premises (perhaps rented) and hire more people to handle orders, packaging, shipping. That's still money out of their own pockets. I'll counter some of you who say there will definitely be a retail box--you're underestimating just how niche this game is. The parties that have significant insight into what actually sells at retail these days are the publishers and distributors; certainly, Obsidian has some experience too. But Obsidian tried to pitch a game like this to those current/trending-market people already; remember how that went?

 

Personally...

 

I think Project Eternity's first game (whatever it'll be called) should remain digital-only up until there's enough profit to start an actual franchise.

 

When Obsidian is quite happy and comfortable that they can deliver a sequel based on those profits, they can avoid Kickstarter and do a preorder setup of some kind where it is possible to lay down funding for physical media creation and shipping without risking anything themselves--such an offer can include the sequel, the original, maybe both in a bundle.

 

Well, that's just my idea. Everything should go into the actual development of the game itself at this point, IMO. Obsidian should not be worrying themselves over the complicated and costly risk that is the retail world.

[Sacred_Path]

I'll counter some of you who say there will definitely be a retail box--you're underestimating just how niche this game is.

 

I'll disagree.

 

Maybe you are underestimating what a huge pull the name Baldur's Gate has. For a generation of players a bit younger than me, it's a defining game of their childhood/ youth. When I was in highschool a lot of my friends who had never played RPGs before and weren't interested in fantasy usually bought and played Baldur's Gate simply for the hype it got and the significance it had as a game that stood pretty much unchallenged (by contemporary titles) in its niche.

Now we're not debating how much of the BG's was Black Isle's doing, or how many of those people are doing what now for P:E - because the gaming press doesn't do so either. The hype of BG seems to carry over almost seamlessly to this possible spiritual successor, and people are excited by it.

 

Of course there's the question of how well conceived and received the final product will be. As it seems now they're not making amends as to the depth of gameplay (maybe with the exception of not being turn based), so that keeps the target group somewhat small. OTOH BG was the first RPG for many people and they had to acquaint themselves with THAC0, saving throws, racial abilities and spell functions too. I expect that P:E will play fluidly and allow some on-the-spot learning.

Technically BG wasn't brilliant, but it had "pretty" art and wasn't out of the technical loop, and I expect the same will apply to P:E. Like with many aspects of P:E, I expect some people will love the isometric view (also out of nostalgia) while some will dismiss/ scold the game for it.

 

In the end, I think with a mix of its own merits and nostalgia P:E can do well enough to justify selling it at retail. It certainly wouldn't hurt if it came with goods that aren't so common nowadays - unfortunately the $140 package that includes the cloth map is out of the question. But the $65 tier could be a realistic offer (if the price doesn't climb significantly).

[Stun]

Baldurs Gate 2, for all its legendary status and mythic level "pull", sold about 2 million copies - making it the biggest selling Infinity engine game ever made.

 

The "problem" here is that 2 million copies is nothing by today's massive sales standards. You'd be hard pressed to get a retailer like Walmart or Best Buy to commit shelf space for a PC exclusive that's only projected to sell 2 million copies, the majority of which are expected to come from digital downloads anyway. And the fact of the matter is that PE would either need to be an MMO, or else be avaliable on consoles in order to sell more than about 2 million copies. *ever* So yes, it IS a niche product, relegated to the fringe of the gaming world, just like Any single player, PC exclusive title will be, by definition. It will never make financial sense to do a retail version and hire out a mass distributer to ship it to stores.

 

The good news is that just about every dollar that PE does make will be pure profit for Obsidian, since the cost to make the game came from our pockets, not theirs. So if PE does manage to sell as much as BG2 did (a huge Optimistic If, btw), it could end up being Obsidian's most profitable game. And that's the only thing that should ever matter.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Stun

[Sacred_Path]

So yes, it IS a niche product, relegated to the fringe of the gaming world, just like Any single player, PC exclusive, title will be, by definition.

I never contested that it's a niche product, I'm saying that it's a niche that they can live with comfortably.

 

A product like P:E might do better on physical media rather than download.

 

A lot of people will take a *cough* look at this product, if they then go and buy it is another question. I think P:E has potential for garnering massive consumer support due to the success of its Kickstarter campaign and the nature and frequency of developer-consumer interaction (and no press report fails to mention this). I think boxsets with high quality assets could successfully swim on this (euphoria?) - again, a shame the map won't be in there.

[Stun]

A product like P:E might do better on physical media rather than download.

It "might", but it would have to go against current consumer trending to do so. Digital downloads for PC games have been surpassing hard copy sales since 2010.

 

 

But regarding your main point, The fact that a boxed, retail version could make the game sell better does not overcome the fact that Obsidian would have to spend their hard earned profits to mass produce those boxed versions and then get them shipped to retailers to BE sold. And That's... not cheap. And for that matter, PE would be guaranteed to sell better if Obsidian decided to also spend Millions of $$$ on a lavish marketing campaign complete with a 60 ad spot to run during the Superbowl. But they're not going to do that either... for the same reason...

Edited December 23, 2012 by Stun

[Ieo]

I'll counter some of you who say there will definitely be a retail box--you're underestimating just how niche this game is.

 

I'll disagree.

 

Maybe you are underestimating what a huge pull the name Baldur's Gate has. For a generation of players a bit younger than me, it's a defining game of their childhood/ youth.

 

Big picture. You really want Obsidian to dilute their potential earnings down to 10% for the retail model? To boot, your argument relies strictly on nostalgia for an old-school-style game; you can't possibly say there's a strong market for this type of game right now:

 

Significant amounts of text that require actual literacy

No cinematics

No full VO

No 3D roaming landscape with rotating camera

Tactical non-twitch party play

Etc.

 

When it comes to high-level business decisions, any company must decide whether the reward will reasonably outweigh all of the risks that go into the highly competitive retail store venue; you didn't read the article. Then we go back to why PE was a Kickstarter, and judging by your post, you don't seem to understand why Obsidian did a Kickstarter in the first place.

 

Baldur's Gate was a heavyweight D&D-licensed title backed by the traditional game industry retail machinery. All the IE games, as far as I know, were released before consoles really took off, and now we have even more computing devices/platforms that dilute the playing field across the entire game industry (e.g. mobile apps, tablet and smartphone). It's very difficult to broadly market a specialist to this environment, and I definitely wouldn't want Project Eternity to be dumbed down and diluted for such a purpose; that's not to say there won't be new customers for this genre, but I doubt there will be enough to pull PE out of "niche" status. (I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, but even then we're still strictly talking about digital sales.)

 

Rather than risking the tremendous time and resources required to get into the retail channels, it's far better for them to reap higher profit margins and go right into making the next sequel--look at it this way: Project Eternity already has significant media backing and social media power without requiring a retail store presence. This is the direction all shopping habits have been moving in the past few years (at least in the U.S.). Edit: See Stun's link.

 

That said, saying definitively that "there will be retail boxes" or even "probably" is plain irresponsible and naive. Counting chickens before they hatch.

 

Kickstarter

 

KENT 12.0.5.3. on October 1

Question for us $65 tier pledgers.

Is the box version going to be cardboard or plastic?

Will there be a box release after launch?

 

Obsidian Entertainment on October 1

@KENT It will, most likely, but something similar to a double DVD case - like you see most games in now-a-days. As for after the KS for a box copy, not sure, but we don't have any plans right now to do another run of them.

 

To answer the OP: Don't count on a post-launch retail copy. Look for auctions.

 

 

Something else to consider:

 

Some companies that distribute digitally will charge a fee for a mere disc copy for manual installation. It's not usually something pretty. If that's the primary issue for folks with limited bandwidth, then I wonder how much of a burden that would be for Obsidian to do a minimal on-demand print. It's definitely not the same as a properly dressed up retail copy or CE on rented store shelves, as this would require an online purchase. A simple disc label-printing in sleeves would probably be enough for that purpose. Maybe Obsidian can consider this. Dunno.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Ieo

[Sacred_Path]

To boot, your argument relies strictly on nostalgia for an old-school-style game; you can't possibly say there's a strong market for this type of game right now

 

I think it's pretty clear that without all the nostalgia-inducing name-dropping they'd never gotten close to $4m. It's very much this appeal that the entire project rests on. There's a reason why the pitch went "remember classic games like Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment?" and not "we'll do an isometric game with tactical combat and lots of text JUST FOR U GIZE". This is interesting because as more info emerges it becomes clear they want to innovate and improve on quite a few things, they just didn't advertise it.

 

Then we go back to why PE was a Kickstarter, and judging by your post, you don't seem to understand why Obsidian did a Kickstarter in the first place.

 

Because doing a kickstarter means you don't want to put out a competitive product?

 

The kickstarter was a p. good thing to do, even though it became an ever better idea the more backers it attracted and the more publicity it got in turn. Quite the snowball effect there. The question is now where they want to go from there and if some venues may seem attractive now that maybe didn't seem feasible before.

 

That said, saying definitively that "there will be retail boxes" or even "probably" is plain irresponsible and naive. Counting chickens before they hatch.

 

That's not what I was saying, obviously. I just wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

[oblomir]

You'd be hard pressed to get a retailer like Walmart or Best Buy to commit shelf space for a PC exclusive that's only projected to sell 2 million copies

 

This has no basis in reality.

 

Here's a random pick of titles you can find on the shelves:

 

Crazy Chicken Soccer

Focus Hotbarels Clay Pidgeon Shooting

iFluid

 

I doubt anyone ever expected those to sell a 100,000 copies, let alone a few million...

[AGX-17]

You'd be hard pressed to get a retailer like Walmart or Best Buy to commit shelf space for a PC exclusive that's only projected to sell 2 million copies

 

This has no basis in reality.

 

Here's a random pick of titles you can find on the shelves:

 

Crazy Chicken Soccer

Focus Hotbarels Clay Pidgeon Shooting

iFluid

 

I doubt anyone ever expected those to sell a 100,000 copies, let alone a few million...

 

That's shovelware. Cheap to make, cheap to sell, and the target audience is not people like us, it's people like... well, Walmart shoppers.

[Dream]

I'll counter some of you who say there will definitely be a retail box--you're underestimating just how niche this game is.

 

I'll disagree.

 

Maybe you are underestimating what a huge pull the name Baldur's Gate has.

 

It doesn't though. As great as it was a good deal of people just don't know about it (let alone have played it). Even among all my online friends (who themselves are pretty big gamers) I'm the only one who actually played the IE games.

[Sacred_Path]

As great as it was a good deal of people just don't know about it

 

I doubt that for people who are/ were in the age range I referred to (at least teens when Baldur's Gate came out) and read gaming print mags or followed review sites. You'd have to have been blind in this case to never even seeing it mentioned somewhere.

[TMTVL]

Well the more I learn about the game, the more I wonder if it's too late to get a refund.

[Grotesque]

Blizzard took a huge dump on their Collector's Editions by making them trivial, pouring unlimited quantities and only for the Holly Buck

 

You'd think a guy with your profile picture would have respect for the pursuit of the "Holly Buck."

 

"Time is money. Chit-chat is not money. You here about the job or what?"

 

The only thing in common is the baldness

[Kaldurenik]

Well if the game become good and sell good they might maybe perhaps do another small batch of boxed copies. But that would only be if the game sell good and turn out to be a good game.

[AlexanderB]

Hello everyone,

 

If I'm right it is still not announced officially whether retail boxes (especially collector's editions) will be available for those who learned about the existence of this project a bit too late. 

In case I'm wrong, can you please direct me to the appropriate thread or other source of information? TA,

Cheers, Alex.

[AGX-17]

 

 

 

 

To make this simple, have I really lost my chance at getting the boxed version of this game?

I would rather ask something different. Have I really lost my chance at getting a decent boxed version?

 

Since Project Eternity pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of the past, we SHOULD get a decent boxed version. I'm talking about those huge cereal boxes. Hell, not only were the manuals gigantic, some games even included a 200 page novella to set up the backstory!

 

 

Nowadays all you get is a DVD and a piece of paper that says "Read the .pdf manual in the DVD".

 

 

Here Here!!!

 

 

"Hear, Hear!" is what it is.

 

Anyway, I sort of, kind of wish I was old enough back then to appreciate the value in keeping the boxes for all my PC games, since most of them are gone (still have SimCity 2000, though. Even though the CD itself looks like Strong Belwas' belly.) Although in actual fact I wish I was younger.

[Madae]

I never did get around to backing the project - my mind kept wandering... and it looks like I missed my chance. Oh well, guess I'll just have to hope for some ebay collector's editions.

 

And I don't think they should not make any more just because some people really want them to be limited. They should make them based on the demand for them. It would be neat if they did something like having a set price on their site, maybe like $200-300, and then would make each order by hand.

 

I mean, this isn't really a time to be stingy about limited copies - what with the economy and all. If people really want to buy them, then they should keep making and selling them. Who doesn't want the money? Is it more important to get paid, or more important to make people feel all warm and fuzzy inside about being early to the party?

 

Actually, I don't even know if I backed it or not. I can't even remember if I did. Maybe I did and I just forgot...

 

And honestly, I don't even know why they took that donation thing down. It's just more money for them, and the game isn't even coming out for another year. Do you really have to get the orders straight a year in advance?

Edited March 6, 2013 by Madae

[JFSOCC]

You can still back through pay-pal, but it won't buy you the game.

[Madae]

You can still back through pay-pal, but it won't buy you the game.

 

Sure, if I felt generous... but why would I do that? Forgive me for being greedy and such, but I fail to see a good reason why I would just give money for nothing. Why not just put up the original backing options? What's the point of taking them down?

 

I can understand removing the higher tiers to develop characters and weapons and all that (since they have to be put in the game in a timely fashion), but boxed versions of the game? That makes no sense to me.

[Leferd]

http://eternity.obsidian.net/

 

You can still back, but just for the digital version.

[Elerond]

 

You can still back through pay-pal, but it won't buy you the game.

 

Sure, if I felt generous... but why would I do that? Forgive me for being greedy and such, but I fail to see a good reason why I would just give money for nothing. Why not just put up the original backing options? What's the point of taking them down?

 

I can understand removing the higher tiers to develop characters and weapons and all that (since they have to be put in the game in a timely fashion), but boxed versions of the game? That makes no sense to me.

 

I think it is because selling games is not their business (at least not yet), so they don't want ordering and delivering boxed product come too much hassle to them.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Elerond