Relationship/Romance Thread IV

[Monte Carlo]

 

Bwahaahhahahaaaahaaaaa!!!

[kenup]

Do any of you guys ever come back and read what you write and just feel embarrassed?

 

I'm just wondering, because sometimes some of these posts remind me of why I can't be known for playing video games.

 

See:

 

http://www.something...cial-forums.php

for details.

Dude.

[Sacred_Path]

Just leave that can of worms to Bioware.

Did Bioware do this to its fanbase, or do video game romances attract these sorts of people?

 

http://www.something...cial-forums.php

 

slowclap.gif

[BruceVC]

 

Bwahaahhahahaaaahaaaaa!!!

 

 

Lol, okay some of these BSN comments about Romance are really hilarious. I do find them extreme but it does show a real commitment to the game and I admire that.

 

However you guys are using these examples as a reason Romance\Sex is a bad idea in PE, well I assume you are? But I think we all agree that the Bioware implementation of Romance\Sex is not what the majority of pro-Romance people want in PE. So they just made me chuckle but hasn't detracted from the overall objective of Romance\Sex in PE

[AGX-17]

 

Bwahaahhahahaaaahaaaaa!!!

 

 

Lol, okay some of these BSN comments about Romance are really hilarious. I do find them extreme but it does show a real commitment to the game and I admire that.

 

However you guys are using these examples as a reason Romance\Sex is a bad idea in PE, well I assume you are? But I think we all agree that the Bioware implementation of Romance\Sex is not what the majority of pro-Romance people want in PE. So they just made me chuckle but hasn't detracted from the overall objective of Romance\Sex in PE

 

As someone who has personally delved into the BSN, I can tell you that these "gems" are not the outliers or exceptions to rational discussions. But my point was in posing the question, did romances in video games turn people into these.... things, or did romances in video games attract an existing group of troglodytes out of their caves? Either way, the boding. It does not go well.

Edited November 11, 2012 by AGX-17

[BruceVC]

 

Bwahaahhahahaaaahaaaaa!!!

 

 

Lol, okay some of these BSN comments about Romance are really hilarious. I do find them extreme but it does show a real commitment to the game and I admire that.

 

However you guys are using these examples as a reason Romance\Sex is a bad idea in PE, well I assume you are? But I think we all agree that the Bioware implementation of Romance\Sex is not what the majority of pro-Romance people want in PE. So they just made me chuckle but hasn't detracted from the overall objective of Romance\Sex in PE

 

As someone who has personally delved into the BSN, I can tell you that these "gems" are not the outliers or exceptions to rational discussions. But my point was in posing the question, did romances in video games turn people into these.... things, or did romances in video games attract an existing group of troglodytes out of their caves? Either way, the boding. It does not go well.

 

You have asked some good questions. I think that people that take Romance\Sex this seriously always had it in them and Bioware just provided the medium. But I still maintain that these people are the fringe element at BSN. I have played all the various Bioware games and made sure my characters participated in Romance and enjoyed it but I never took it this far. I am sure most people on these forums are in the same category as me.

 

Finally I have to admire someone who is prepared to spend his RL time to create a semblance of realism around the sweat of a virtual character. I know most people will see this as weird but it does show dedication. If you were Bioware surly you would be proud of creating a game that has so much impact on peoples lives?

Edited November 11, 2012 by BruceVC

[Monte Carlo]

Dedication? More like borderline obsession.

[kenup]

Finally I have to admire someone who is prepared to spend his RL time to create a semblance of realism around the sweat of a virtual character. I know most people will see this as weird but it does show dedication. If you were Bioware surly you would be proud of creating a game that has so much impact on peoples lives?

What The ****? Why is obsession called dedication? That guy clearly has a problem, there is nothing to admire. If I was bioware, I would be happy that there are people like him paying me, for whatever **** I throw at them.

[Monte Carlo]

As and when they announce romances, this lot will head on over here. Mark my words.

[BSoda]

As and when they announce romances, this lot will head on over here. Mark my words.

We are already here.

[BruceVC]

Finally I have to admire someone who is prepared to spend his RL time to create a semblance of realism around the sweat of a virtual character. I know most people will see this as weird but it does show dedication. If you were Bioware surly you would be proud of creating a game that has so much impact on peoples lives?

What The ****? Why is obsession called dedication? That guy clearly has a problem, there is nothing to admire. If I was bioware, I would be happy that there are people like him paying me, for whatever **** I throw at them.

 

Well end of the day this boils down to a completely subjective opinion of the guys behavior. I don't know enough of the context to say he is obsessed. So I prefer to say he is dedicated. In life I tend to see the glass as half full.

 

As and when they announce romances, this lot will head on over here. Mark my words.

 

, I doubt it. PE will never have the level of Romance that will draw this type of Romance personality.

[AGX-17]

Finally I have to admire someone who is prepared to spend his RL time to create a semblance of realism around the sweat of a virtual character. I know most people will see this as weird but it does show dedication. If you were Bioware surly you would be proud of creating a game that has so much impact on peoples lives?

What The ****? Why is obsession called dedication? That guy clearly has a problem, there is nothing to admire. If I was bioware, I would be happy that there are people like him paying me, for whatever **** I throw at them.

 

Well end of the day this boils down to a completely subjective opinion of the guys behavior. I don't know enough of the context to say he is obsessed. So I prefer to say he is dedicated. In life I tend to see the glass as half full.

 

I cannot see any positive spin to a man trying to discover what a fictional alien character's sweat and urine smell and taste like. Because he's sexually attracted to the character and wants his sexual fantasies to become more vivid. Would you feel the same way if he was trying to figure out what the sweat and urine of a female celebrity smell like? What about just some random woman he spotted on the street? I don't think you'd call it admirable dedication so much as perverse mental illness. This is the opinion of someone with a long and storied history with mental illness.

[Felithvian]

El sexe es asquerós (Sex is disgusting).

 

Salvador Dali.

 

Anyways, I'm all for options.

[BruceVC]

Finally I have to admire someone who is prepared to spend his RL time to create a semblance of realism around the sweat of a virtual character. I know most people will see this as weird but it does show dedication. If you were Bioware surly you would be proud of creating a game that has so much impact on peoples lives?

What The ****? Why is obsession called dedication? That guy clearly has a problem, there is nothing to admire. If I was bioware, I would be happy that there are people like him paying me, for whatever **** I throw at them.

 

Well end of the day this boils down to a completely subjective opinion of the guys behavior. I don't know enough of the context to say he is obsessed. So I prefer to say he is dedicated. In life I tend to see the glass as half full.

 

I cannot see any positive spin to a man trying to discover what a fictional alien character's sweat and urine smell and taste like. Because he's sexually attracted to the character and wants his sexual fantasies to become more vivid. Would you feel the same way if he was trying to figure out what the sweat and urine of a female celebrity smell like? What about just some random woman he spotted on the street? I don't think you'd call it admirable dedication so much as perverse mental illness. This is the opinion of someone with a long and storied history with mental illness.

 

Okay I have to admit when you put it that way I agree his comments are disturbing, you make a convincing argument.

 

But you do agree that his opinions and research doesn't represent all of the people on BSN, so he is an exception and extreme case?

[Monte Carlo]

Of course he isn't representative of all the people on BSN. But, then again, he is representative of a common type of behaviour and attitude over there, which is people who have an unhealthy level of emotional and / or sexual investment in computer game characters.

 

I like being part of this online community. To put it bluntly, I'd prefer not to share it with people like this. It doesn't matter if Obsidian announce to make the most un-romantic romance ever, the Romance Taliban will still come and take a look and camp here.

 

So I'm all for fighting romances, not only because I don't like them personally, but because they are a destructive force that presages an unholy invasion of our community! To arms! Standby to repel boarders! Phasers to DISINTEGRATE!

[Osvir]

Promancers are so sad they simply create lots of .alts to vote for sock-puppet lurve.

 

Although I'm not 100% with you, I'm pretty much with you. Not on all Polls but this one and some others I've thought chuckling "Someone is totally making alts for this".

 

As long as Avellone has last word I'm fine. As long as he isn't forced to do anything with Romances I'm fine.

 

Heh! Obsidian should totally release the game without Romances but with mod tools and a tutorial on how to do it, the slogan could be: "Create your own wet dreams"

[Karkarov]

Another poll with poor choices. How about all of the above? Whats the point of including romance at all in the game if it means it can only be "one kind", and since when is being "good friends" with your party members considered romance? Unless you are talking about same sex stuff which frankly I would avoid because it will only bring the wrong kind of attention to the game.

 

It's a Multi-Choice poll

I worded my post poorly I admit. My point is the options are the wrong options. It should just be three straight choices. 1: full on relationships in game, you can be best friends with a character, fall in love, have sex, whatever. 2: Leave the romance and sex out of it and just go with personal relationships/friendship. 3: Just leave it out period. Anything else is just silly because that is what it really comes down to.

[Osvir]

Hmm an interesting thought popped up... could a character be bound to some keys making it impossible to reach the "Romance/Love" dialogue section and could this be an option? Basically "Turn it Off".

 

Likewise, could there be a character/companion that just ruins any attempt at Romance? Lol...

 

"Project: Eternity features:

* ****block Companion" xD

 

Your companions should definitely have their own romances/ steal yours. Then they could be all "lol u mad?"

 

Eh not entirely what I meant, I meant a character that ruins your every attempt at Romance. You could name him "Monte Carlo" for reference to the Forums. Someone who is a "Reality"-check a la:

 

In-Game Scenario 1, talking to Companion about chick:

Hero: "I think I like this chick kawaaiii~"

MC: "What did the five fingers say to the face?"

Hero: "Eh?"

*SLAP*

MC: "Reality check"

Hero: "But...!"

*SLAP*

MC: "No, let's move on. There's a dragon to slay"

Hero: "She.."

MC: "No more!"

 

Scenario 2, talking with chick:

Hero: "Oh Cadegund I..."

Cadegund: "Yes dear Hero~?"

*SLAP*

MC: "Not if I can help it!"

 

EDIT: P:E will have Gods right? Just make a "No Romance God" Option that you can turn "On/Off", an "Actor" (mechanically) that appears and overrides the rest of the romantic dialogue with another dialogue.

 

Another poll with poor choices. How about all of the above? Whats the point of including romance at all in the game if it means it can only be "one kind", and since when is being "good friends" with your party members considered romance? Unless you are talking about same sex stuff which frankly I would avoid because it will only bring the wrong kind of attention to the game.

 

It's a Multi-Choice poll

I worded my post poorly I admit. My point is the options are the wrong options. It should just be three straight choices. 1: full on relationships in game, you can be best friends with a character, fall in love, have sex, whatever. 2: Leave the romance and sex out of it and just go with personal relationships/friendship. 3: Just leave it out period. Anything else is just silly because that is what it really comes down to.

 

Something to think about for the next poll (if there is going to be a number 5).

Edited November 11, 2012 by Osvir

[Sylvanpyxie]

As I've stated in the last two threads, there is a lot that can horribly wrong with the inclusion of romances:

 

Degradation of character. Ranging from questionable character content to all out Out of Character behaviour.

Player Entitlement which can lead to a lack of consequences.

And my personal flavour of Hell: Romantic dialogue overshadowing the personality of the character.

 

Characters should be who they are, possibly influenced by the things they see around them, but their core foundations should always remain the same. Their entire belief system shouldn't alter simply to accommodate a Player's romantic interest. If there's a Homicidal Maniac in my Party, and i'm playing a Righteous Egotistical Do-Gooder, he should not be trying to get in my pants, he should be trying to repeatedly lop my head off when i'm not looking. Similarly a Righteous Egotistical Do-Gooder trying to get into the pants of a Homicidal Maniac is more than a little game-breaking.

 

Characters can bend to the will of a Player if it's really necessary, but to completely break a character in order to accommodate a Romantic Sub-Plot should never be acceptable.

 

 

Nor should consequence be removed from character interactions, simply to allow Romantic Sub-Plots to remain open. Consequences are vital to good story telling, every action should have some form of reaction, whether it's something as simple as racial choice or something as radical as murdering an innocent child, there should be some reaction to your choices, no matter how small.

 

Character interactions should never be devoid of consequence, if I have a Do-Gooder in my party and I choose to exploit the hardships of a innocent downtrodden little sewer rat to further my own personal desires then the Do-Gooder should speak out against my actions, he should be preparing to give me the biggest verbal, or physical, smack down of my life. He should become enraged and disgusted by my actions as I constantly disregard the suffering of humanity and exploit the weakness of others to further my own gains. He should not be trying to find the best route into my fetching leather pants...

 

Yet, in an alternate play-through, he could be singing my praises to the greatest Gods. Playing an equally Self-Righteous Do-Gooder, we could be comrades for life, fighting evil and saving the downtrodden from a life of poverty and ruin. Becoming closer in the confines of our friendship, perhaps progressing towards romance as we indulge each other in illusions of grandeur and recite continuous, almost fanatical, preaching at those that dare to walk in the shadow of evil.

 

Consequences are a big part of story-telling, and they should never be excluded from Character Interaction simply to accommodate people's obsession with Romances. If you choose to go against everything that a character believes in, that avenue of romance should be closed to you. Whether it's a far reaching consequence that stretches the entirety of the game, or the most minor reflection of your choices, consequences should affect how NPCs look at you, and how they feel about you. No one should be entitled to a free-pass in the name of "love".

 

 

I also don't believe romance should be overbearing. This is my particular brand of Hell, and yet so many people expect and *want* huge branching trees of romantic dialogue for them to pursue at their heart's content. I'm sure that's great, for you... I personally don't understand the pointlessness of it. Do you get something from Romantic Dialogue that you wouldn't be able to get from purely Friendship Dialogue? Is Romantic Dialogue somehow more engaging? Deeper in content?

 

See, my personal belief is, Friendship Dialogue opens the character up, it shows me everything I could possibly want to see. It engages me in understanding and adapting my behaviour to the Character in question so that they'll accept me as their trusted friend, or hate my guts for the rest of eternity. Sure, if I really like the character I'd like the option to flirt a little, push a few buttons, test the waters, bait them a little and see if I can get a reaction... But I don't need huge branches of over-arcing Romantic Dialogue to do this, just a few snippets of romance integrated seamlessly into the Friendship Dialogue.

 

Honestly, I don't understand what huge branches of Romantic Sub-Plot actually achieves. Does a conversation about my Potential Love Interest's sexual history really offer me a deep and engaging conversation? Does it give me greater insight and understanding of the character? Call me crazy but I don't think it does, which is why I don't understand the necessity of it.

 

Of course, you're eventually going to want dialogue that addresses the flirting and baiting. You're going to want it to be recognized and addressed accordingly, and that's understandable and acceptable, but it doesn't require huge branches of never-ending, pointless, uninspired Romantic Dialogue to address the building sexual tension of your relationship. And no, it doesn't require the inevitable outcry of a sexual climax either (pardon the pun).

 

A few changes to dialogue, sure, that's necessary if you're going to put any form of relationships into the game. Romances, friendships, rivalries, they all need their own unique dialogue sometime. What i'm saying is Romantic Dialogue doesn't need to dominate the board with pointless conversations about sexual history, shoes and what kind of underwear you're wearing.

 

 

Oh god, that turned out long again didn't it? I just can't seem to keep a post short. Look, I'm not wholly against Romance, I've said in the other threads that there are a few instances in which Character Romance has really hit me quite hard.. But it really is easy to see how difficult it would be to incorporate them seamlessly into the game, and even if they manage that not everyone will happy with the result.

 

I can understand both sides of the argument, yet I just cannot get myself off the fence on this one. It's a constant battle between my romantic heart and the irrational fear of tasteless, uninspired, romantic sub-plots. I can only hope that the Writers handle *all* character relationships with completely impartial professionalism, and try their hardest not to disregard the foundations of their characters in the name of fan service.

 

Uh.. Sorry for the mammoth sized post, again. *Embarrassed*

Edited November 11, 2012 by Sylvanpyxie

[Osvir]

Nu-hu, scroll back up and read it bitch. It's a great post^

Edited November 11, 2012 by Osvir

[Ieo]

Oh yeah, part 4. I'm still trying to estimate how many parts this will reach until 2014. LOL

 

The problem with the poll design (I do appreciate that it tries to expand on the topic) is that romance is a particular subtype of love that essentially leads down the path to sex, which isn't a bad thing. But I really can't stand overly idealized versions of it, which tends to be what many people are brainwashed into believing.

 

I have a problem with "romance" being equated to the "highest form" of love (or even the only one worth having in a game), though--there are so many other kinds with equal value. So a better poll question for me would be "what is love" with romance being one of the options. I mean, think of family love. That definitely isn't romance.

 

I'd be in favor of:

Now, if there were 18 NPCs (like in BG2) of considerable depth like PS:T companions...

9 could have "romance" paths...

9 would have their own character content...

 

I doubt there would be as much controversy over this as there is now. Because, guess what, we have only 8 companions in a party of 6.

 

Then the issue I described in other threads comes down to--

 

|=====general character content=========|Y/N romance = Y|-------romance content-----------|

 

versus

 

|=====general character content=========|Y/N romance = N|

 

That's my concern. There has to be equal content no matter what "path" a given NPC development goes down. This is generally not the case in game development, in my experience (and yes, I've tried out a number of different game romances in my day out of morbid curiosity).

 

Once again ( ), here is my proposed mechanic for perfectly parallel and exclusive "Y" paths that cover everything, described briefly from a preceding romance thread. The following examples are situated from the companion's perspective. It's very simple!

 

 

Y = bottom main branch is the starting point for all companion interaction

 

Main branch: get-to-know-you (This really should take up the bulk of the companion interaction over time; then we can get to specialization!)

 

Left branch: romance

Right branch: bromance/womance

 

Left branch: younger sibling

Right branch: protege

 

Left branch: older sibling

Right branch: advisor

 

Left branch: younger sibling

Right branch: romance

 

Et cetera.

 

That is all.

[Suen]

Essentially I want the relationships, romantic or not, evolve in a logical way.

Based on the actions of the player the companions stance should change, they should develop affection, admiration, loyalty, hatred, jealousy...

 

In the specific case of romantic relationship, if a companion can fall in love, well, that should be a possibility, but not the only one. (Exception: an "adoring fan" already in love with the protagonist.)

 

Let's say that companion A is attracted by black haired, tall people. Your character is a blond dwarf.

You can still catch the interest of companion A if you show certain personality traits: force of will, courage, love for cats.

However, you are a spineless coward, and on top of that you kicked a cat.

Romance should not happen. The companion could send you "for error" in a rats infested cave, but romance? nope.

 

And I'd rather do without the relationships being presented as a mini game. I want to be surprised by my companions reactions, and dealing with them should not break immersion. I don't want my decisions be influenced by how many points with Companion A a certain answer can give me, or by the look of a friendship bar.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Suen

[Lurky]

Lol, okay some of these BSN comments about Romance are really hilarious. I do find them extreme but it does show a real commitment to the game and I admire that.

 

However you guys are using these examples as a reason Romance\Sex is a bad idea in PE, well I assume you are? But I think we all agree that the Bioware implementation of Romance\Sex is not what the majority of pro-Romance people want in PE. So they just made me chuckle but hasn't detracted from the overall objective of Romance\Sex in PE

 

As someone who has personally delved into the BSN, I can tell you that these "gems" are not the outliers or exceptions to rational discussions. But my point was in posing the question, did romances in video games turn people into these.... things, or did romances in video games attract an existing group of troglodytes out of their caves? Either way, the boding. It does not go well.

 

Hey, I actually speculated about why that happened several threads ago

 

My conclusions were that what happened was something like this:

1) several people in a lovey-dovey mood meet in the same game forums

2) these people enter an uninterrupted feedback loop between each other where this mood is exarcerbated, which leads to:

2a) the people turn this mood into a bigger part of their behaviour and interests

2b) the discussion grows and entangles new people in the process, whose mood (and interests) are affected as well

3) some devs either see the growing interest or are caught in this loop, leading to some fan ideas being incorporated into the games themselves

4) the combination of the exarcebated mood with the developers being receptive to it leads into the various forms of obsession and entitlement you can find in the BSN

 

I postulated that this lovey-dovey mood was created by the games and that this was unavoidable in videogame romances because they're inherently one-sided, but that's not the full picture: people can carry this mood from other places, so when they gather in one place they follow pretty much the same process, leading to the same self-absorbing degenerating feedback loop.

 

This also means that there's not much the devs can do in terms of game content to stop this kind of behaviour, because it desn't really come from what they do, it comes from people being people. Turns out, the echo chamber effect of forums affect romance discussions too. In both sides.

 

Oh yeah, part 4. I'm still trying to estimate how many parts this will reach until 2014. LOL

 

These threads should totally continue to be numbered. That way we'll be able to tell at the end

[Ralewyn]

I don't really have anything meaningful to say regarding sex or romance.

 

But as far as bro-mance goes, I want at least one character I can be genuine friends with. Though I'm aware not necessarily all of these characters end up likable for everybody, I like characters that you can have a genuinely healthy dynamic with, even if some of it is imagined. Khelgar and Morte come to mind as examples. People who through your interactions you can imagine your character sharing a beer with when this is all over. People who aren't following you because you're the hero of legend, but because they're your bro and they've been with you through hell and back. As much as I enjoyed being a great spiritual mentor to a 'flock' of characters in KOTOR II, I found interactions with party members who regarded me as an equal and could treat me as just a man at the end of the day far more compelling.

 

One thing I would like, however, is the ability to influence any companion's character growth. New Vegas touched on this by allowing you to make one of two choices regarding their personal outlooks. This would give them some sort of significant bonus in a specific area relating to the choice you made and it would impact their epilogue.

 

This is great, but Dragon Age--wait, hang on, hear me out here--touched on a way to take this a step further. At certain points in the game you can genuinely impact how Allistair and Leliana develop as characters. Your dialogue choices allow them to sort through some issues and they can come away either 'unhardened' (the default state) or 'hardened.' What was interesting about this is these events occurred roughly 60-70% of the way through the main story-line, and once these characters were developed in this way it would actually change not only their personality, but also how they would react to certain plot events and even certain actions you took, actually altering their approval gains/losses and even changing the events of certain key plot points in some cases. It was small, and subtle to the point that I didn't realize it until I looked it up later, but I was really impressed when I saw that.

 

I think that designing companion interactions from the ground up with this sort of system in mind could produce much more interesting interactions, to the point where it could serve as a new paradigm in NPC interaction should it succeed. Now, granted, this sort of system would increase the resources required to make a new companion exponentially, especially if you wanted to start influencing their growth in a branching tree from an early state. However, I'm under the impression at this point that every line in this game is explicitly not going to be voice acted, meaning most of these resources would be spent on writing in addition to a little simple--if tedious game logic code. Text is the most cost-efficient asset for producing actual game content available, so if we're assuming most NPC interactions will be purely text, we can safely assume that we can have a lot of NPC interactions. Though this assumption might be naive, I would think that we would have enough to adequately support a system like this.

 

If something like that is too high-scope, though, I'd like at the very least something along the lines of New Vegas' system as mentioned above.

That being said, I'd like companion quests to be a little more obvious. I ended up having to use a guide to reach the end of most of my party members' quest lines because the events were so rare.

[Jojobobo]

In other words, we just assume they're all shagging each other, since who knows when they'll all die and they don't have any other friends?

 

Sounds reasonable.

Just like Harry Potter.

 

On a serious note, I think all the top three forms of relationships are viable but I must stress that developing a meaningful relationship should be difficult. Far too often in RPGs as long as your character is nice to someone in the opposing gender they'll fall in love, or if it's of the same gender they'll make friends (or start a gay relationship, etc.). In real life people are often more guarded than that, it takes time to wear down defenses people have made whether those defenses stand in the way of more personal relationships or simple friendship. Or to throw things on their head, maybe you'll form a relationship with an NPC easily that you believe is genuine and they'll cheat on you/reveal they have been manipulating you all along - leaving you feel burned as the player if they succeeded in sucking you in. Relationships should be allowed to crumble sourly just as they can in real life, maybe a former friend and party member could end up being your greatest enemy.

 

Sex on the other hand I guess should be more easy, people have sex plenty of times on real life for various other reasons than to build a meaningful relationship with someone. But it doesn't need to be made a huge deal of or glorified (eyes on you Witcher) and perhaps cultural beliefs should stand in the way (or you know, general unwillingness - not everyone should be promiscous). Furthermore maybe the player character will get a come-on by someone they find unattractive (old, ugly, etc.), not anyone who seeks sex from the character needs to be a bombshell.

 

Lastly though relationships should be available for party members, I'd like to see them with non party member NPCs. Some PCs I'd imagine might get pretty tired of their other half being there all the time, just like some people do.