Anti-Dragon Age 2?

[BBMorti]

DA3 is bound to be the best DA game, possibly the best BioWare game in recent history. Why? They got plenty of pre-production and development time plus using a new and very robust technology (Frostbite 2 based), so Bio would have to do something very very stupid to screw that up.

Let me know if you are willing to put money on that.

 

It's not a bet, it's a very safe assumption. BioWare makes competent games if they get enough time.

What you figure to be a very safe assumption could be easy money for me, were you a gambling man. Your assumption is obviously an oxymoron if you consider it a bit more. EA controlled =| makes competent games if they get enough time. Doesn't get more safe than that.

[anubite]

I do agree that BioWare's past games, even Jade Empire, NWN1 and DA:O - are all 'competent' even if my taste for them varies at a personal level. I can't say they exactly fail at what they set out to do. But in those three games, BioWare was in total control of its operations and they had plenty of time to carefully make the game.

 

Although they have been given more time for DA3, I suspect they have even less breathing room and autonomy. Publishers have a history of putting choke holds on their sla- *cough* subsidiaries. A recent story about Kaos studios (http://www.polygon.com/2012/11/1/3560318/homefront-kaos-studios-thq) is just one of many anecdotal tales of this happening.

 

BioWare has made enough bad decisions that I have a sneaking suspicion that with the Doctors leaving the company, BioWare has lost any sense of control over their establishment. Of course, I can't confirm such a thing, but at this stage, I'm sure EA's brilliant business team is rapidly becoming convinced it should nanny the company.

[Spider]

When I was following the SWTOR fiasco, the most densely populated server had <30 alliance players above level 50 in /who at any given moment; the queue for PVP was several hours. That's a ghost town, at least to me. Maybe it's improved since then, but that was enough fo rme to call it a ghost town.

 

It did get better when they finally merged the servers, but that took so long they lost a lot of players. And if the F2P, which is coming soon, gets implemented like it is right now at the test servers I'm willing to bet they will keep losing players. It's so ridicilously restricted that I will be VERY surprised if they actually manage to encourage players to pay them anything. More likely most new players will think the game is horrible and forget it.

 

People testing on the pts are subscribers testing with restricted features. Of course they will think that it's horribly restrictive. But what I've heard from people who have experience with other, successful, F2P initiatives like LOTRO and EQ2, is that SWTOR is actually fairly relaxed in comparison.

 

The point isn't to get subscribers to play the game through micro transactions, the point is to keep the subscribers and get people who never would have given the game a shot to pay for it through micro transactions. Or better yet to become subscribers. Whether or not that is a valid business model remains to be seen, but what they're doing makes sense in that light (and they have taken to feedback from the PTS and removed some of the worst restrictions).

[Guest Slinky]

Whether or not that is a valid business model remains to be seen

 

When I think of F2P, I think the best way for it would be let players play it without too much of restrictions. That way the old subscribers will stay and they maximise the amount of new players, also maximising their change of getting new subscribers.

 

But when they handicap their game, or even cripple for new players testing the f2p, I for one would would laugh at them and go do something else if I was a new player. Don't know about you, but I wouldn't buy a car I couldn't first test well enough before buying. I'm really having trouble thinkin this would be more effective in the long run.

 

But then again, whe world is full of people who even buy "clothes" for their xbox live avatars, so what I know.

 

EDIT: Forgot to say I don't now how restricted swtor is currently, stopped checkin when I stopped playing the game.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Slinky

[Hurlshort]

 

When I think of F2P, I think the best way for it would be let players play it without too much of restrictions. That way the old subscribers will stay and they maximise the amount of new players, also maximising their change of getting new subscribers.

 

 

You want to make sure the subscribers still have a reason to subscribe. If they give away the whole kit and caboodle, they lose that monthly income. It's a tough balancing act, but nothing I read in the notes sounds worse than most other MMo's. In fact it seems like they might be giving away too much, since you can complete the storylines with no restriction and that is what I considered the best part of the game.

[anubite]

There aren't many 'freemium' RPGs to look at. I only know of LOTR and EQ2 - the rest are either pure F2P by design or pure subscriber based. I agree BioWare only has a narrow view to work from, but I'd also like to point out that TF2 and LOL, whatever you think of those games, as well as EVE online, have equally successful models that don't make death "exclusive" to subscribers (that certainly does soudn like a silly boon ) and are reasonably unrestrictive in their F2P terms. You can play EVE online for free by contributing in-game currency towards an in-game item which redeems subscribtpion time - which has shown to be very effective at curbing 'chinese farmers'.

 

Although SWTOR may be relaxed in comparison, I think the main draw of SWTOR is its "linear single player story", which you get for free anyway. The rest of the features they're selling seem to be for the more "hardcore" crowd, whcih strikes me as odd and ineffective.

 

SWTOR isn't in a good position to be a F2P game - it clearly wasn't intended to be. Nobody designed it with that kind of flexibility in mind (or anything in mind, which is the sad part). But I don't think people are going to jump onboard as a subscriber to PVP multiple times a week (not with a 1-2 second delay for abilities) after they've tried it once.

Edited November 5, 2012 by anubite

[Hurlshort]

Dungeons and Dragons Online, Age of Conan, Star Trek Online, and Champions are all freemium now. City of Heroes was for a bit, but shut down recently. There really aren't that many strictly subscription games left.

[Hassat Hunter]

TOR's F2P is the best F2P system around... all of the good stuff is free, you need to pay for the crap.

 

I suspect many SP RPG's (like me) will (like me) play it now for the story. Which is all they wanted. But not pay $15 a month for. And now it's not just $50 (a new KOTOR) but entirely free. That it's nowhere near the level of KOTOR1 (let stand KOTOR2) can be slightly forgiven by it, well, being free.

And what do you need to pay for? MP sillyness like PvP or raids. I don't think the crowd that wasn't into TOR yet is really the crowd interested to that. So I doubt many subscriptions will be sold. And this might turn the worst F2P attempt in MMORPG history.

 

Only time will tell. For me, I don't really look forward to DA3. We'll see if it's a trainwreck or not when it arrives in the station.

[melkathi]

TOR's F2P is the best F2P system around... all of the good stuff is free, you need to pay for the crap.

 

 

 

You need to pay for the Consular class story??? Or for chapter 3 of the Smuggler story? You need to pay to land on Illum?

 

Or do you get charged for the load screen extravaganza, the most ridiculous time sink they added? Want to get off planet? Run to shuttle, click on shuttle door -> load screen -> enter orbital station (with nothing to do in) run through orbital station to the elevator to the hangar -> load screen -> enter hangar and run to ship's air lock -> load screen -> run through the ship while being harassed by the banter of a protocol droid, reach the ****pit, select your destination on the map... guess what: loadscreen.

Reach the other planet, run to airlock -> loadscreen -> run through hangar to the elevator -> loadscreen -> appear in space port (yippie! no orbital station - one less load screen) -> remember that speeders can't be used inside space ports and that these place are large...

What did they do? Look at what people found most annoying about ME 1 and decide "Hey! Let's take the basic concept of the hated ME elevator rides, remove the party banter that may have made it tolerable and instead let's charge people a subscription fee for it!"

 

But let's be honest here, what you are describing is the likeliest reason the F2P conversion will fail. If F2P only attracts people who want to run once through their stories of choice and get the bioware game experience for free, then the company is not getting any money out of it. They need players who want that something more that they are willing to pay for. That includes "multiplayer sillyness".

 

Disregarding the travesty of Illum and general wreck that was open world PvP, SWTOR PvP was not all bad. Yes it had balancing issues and Hutball could be seriously one sided spawn point camping. But both Civil War and Voidstar could be very fun.

[Nepenthe]

TOR's F2P is the best F2P system around... all of the good stuff is free, you need to pay for the crap.

 

I suspect many SP RPG's (like me) will (like me) play it now for the story. Which is all they wanted. But not pay $15 a month for. And now it's not just $50 (a new KOTOR) but entirely free. That it's nowhere near the level of KOTOR1 (let stand KOTOR2) can be slightly forgiven by it, well, being free.

And what do you need to pay for? MP sillyness like PvP or raids. I don't think the crowd that wasn't into TOR yet is really the crowd interested to that. So I doubt many subscriptions will be sold. And this might turn the worst F2P attempt in MMORPG history.

 

Only time will tell. For me, I don't really look forward to DA3. We'll see if it's a trainwreck or not when it arrives in the station.

Some of the flashpoints tie into the story in a way that makes them worth doing at least once, but IIRC that wasn't exactly a problem.

[Spider]

Or do you get charged for the load screen extravaganza, the most ridiculous time sink they added?

 

They've actually improved a lot of that. Speeders now work in airports and when you leave a planet the orbital shuttle can take you directly to your ship.

 

Also, a lot of the things you call loadscreens are just fade to black while transitioning, no actual loading occurs. Like the hangar elevator, or trip from orbital station to the planet. There's no loading there and they take a second or two. I agree they're unnecessary, but not quite as bad as you make them out to be.

 

The basic thing with the F2P is that they want a lot of people trying the game. I'm sure they're counting on some people converting to subscribers, others are going to pay for luxury stuff, and others will pay for more pvp etc. But lots of players in the game means a more fulfilling experience for the subscribers as well, which may mean they'll stabilize on that front instead of losing more players, which is probably the primary goal.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Spider

[melkathi]

Or do you get charged for the load screen extravaganza, the most ridiculous time sink they added?

 

They've actually improved a lot of that. Speeders now work in airports and when you leave a planet the orbital shuttle can take you directly to your ship.

 

Also, a lot of the things you call loadscreens are just fade to black while transitioning, no actual loading occurs. Like the hangar elevator, or trip from orbital station to the planet. There's no loading there and they take a second or two. I agree they're unnecessary, but not quite as bad as you make them out to be.

 

The basic thing with the F2P is that they want a lot of people trying the game. I'm sure they're counting on some people converting to subscribers, others are going to pay for luxury stuff, and others will pay for more pvp etc. But lots of players in the game means a more fulfilling experience for the subscribers as well, which may mean they'll stabilize on that front instead of losing more players, which is probably the primary goal.

 

Good to hear about the space port / orbital station improvement.

I enjoyed the Champions Online Free to Play conversion. I felt they did a good job with that.

 

SWTOR I do not know if I'll try again. The devs just did not inspire confidence in me. First was the slicing issue that completly ruined the economy. They were too hesitant to act and thus had to throw money sinks of such proportions at the players, which made prices ridiculous for anyone who had not been rolling in cash due to first month slicing.

Then was the open world PvP and Illum debacle. all we got from that was basically "We are looking into it"

Yes, we don't want knee jerk reactions, but the SWTOR devs were too hesitant for my taste and I believe the game economy and pvp suffered from it.

But other things they decisively changed. They put their foot down. The smuggler's / agent's giggle was removed to combat noise fatigue. They left all other sound effects in unchanged for every other class, including the chuckle that other classes have, but the giggle, that went the way of the dodo, replaced with a sound that is only noticeable if you stop playing and glue your ear to the speaker... Of course a few weeks later the rakghoul event was added, spamming fleet stations with the quest announcement pretty much once per minute. Speeding from the cantina to the galactic trade network I heard that announcement 4 times. I couldn't actually do any trading, as people would infect me, forcing the window to close, but obviously, neither the continuous chatter of the quest npc, nor the players abusing the event to stop the players trading from doing their trading are a problem. No, it's the giggle that causes noise fatigue.

 

As you can tell, there are choices the devs made really rubbed me the wrong way. The game has some really good bits. That first rakghoul flashpoint is great for example. So is Cademimu. I even enjoy Black Talon, even though the light/dark side choices are a bit "meh" in the way they award light and dark side points (a general problem with the game: "I kill u!" -> dark side. "You think I plan to kill you? No, you will not be so lucky. I am arresting you. You will be moved to an Imperial Secret Police detention facility where you will be questioned. Trust me, you will tell us everything..." -> Light side points... the same problem people see with Dishonoured, I guess).

[Guest Slinky]

TOR's F2P is the best F2P system around... all of the good stuff is free, you need to pay for the crap.

 

I suspect many SP RPG's (like me) will (like me) play it now for the story. Which is all they wanted. But not pay $15 a month for. And now it's not just $50 (a new KOTOR) but entirely free. That it's nowhere near the level of KOTOR1 (let stand KOTOR2) can be slightly forgiven by it, well, being free.

And what do you need to pay for? MP sillyness like PvP or raids. I don't think the crowd that wasn't into TOR yet is really the crowd interested to that. So I doubt many subscriptions will be sold. And this might turn the worst F2P attempt in MMORPG history.

 

Only time will tell. For me, I don't really look forward to DA3. We'll see if it's a trainwreck or not when it arrives in the station.

 

Newsflash. I played swtor for about 9 months and I met A LOT of people during that. And you know what? 9 out of ten had never played KOTOR or KOTOR2, many of them didn't even know they existed.

 

The "single player" of swtor is bad, yeah I give you that. But somehow I got the picture you havent ever even tried how fun operations and flashpoints are with friends in this game.

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, the lvl 15 trial was limiting... just one flashpoint (I think it was flashpoint... just before leaving to the main planet on the central zone thingie).

It got stale on the second run...

 

So yeah.

[HoonDing]

I made the mistake of watching some Old Republic storyline videos on Youtube, it made me lose any desire I once might have had to ever play the F2P.

[Orchomene]

Back to the topic, I just wanted to add some relative thinking about DA2 hating/enjoying and BW RPGs evolution.

I've not played DA2 (so I won't give an opinion about it), but I remember what I felt when I played ME2 (the last Bio game I've played) : I thought it was an awful game, with bland characters, no story, a shooter gameplay... Not a "real RPG".

That was some time ago and I've had time to digest all of this. Now I just think that this game may be a pretty good game, but just not a game I like. After all, if so many people think it's a good game, even a good RPG, who am I to say the inverse and think I am right and they are wrong ?

For any game you dislike, you can find tons of elements to justify how poor the game is. It's easy and doesn't require much effort since games are of course not perfect.I'm sure you can find people that hated PS:T that could argue for hours on how the gameplay is terrible and the companions are bland and caricatural. Of course, they would say there arguments are objective and so on.

 

So, in the end, if you don't like DA2, just get over it. There is nothing wrong in Bioware having another target audiance that people that enjoy old school RPGs over more modern gameplay.

Ok, you feel some bad taste of trahison in your mouth, but you will quickly get over it.

I now can say without remorse that ME2 is certainly a good game, but not a game that I like.

[melkathi]

 

I now can say without remorse that ME2 is certainly a good game, but not a game that I like.

 

I think for ME2 that actually holds true though, while for DA2 it just does not.

I think ME1 was a pretty good game. I find the story abhorend and the elevator rides were a pain, but the game by itself was pretty good. Did I like it? No way. But I did get ME2 because a lot of people who loved the story of the first seemed to hate the story of the second and I thus decided "Hey If I hate ME1's story and they loved that but hate this.... maybe I'll love it!" . I found it meh, but that is another matter

On the other hand, I am one of those very few people who loved a little game called Paradise Cracked. And trust me, that game was terrible. I had a lot of fun with the game, but were you to tell me it was good I'd stare at you in disbelief and then nod and walk away (very slowly, without turning my back on you).

Sometimes we like things even though they are bad. And sometimes, even though we dislike things, they still are bad.

[Volourn]

"I think for ME2 that actually holds true though, while for DA2 it just does not."

 

Sure it does. DA2 certainly is better than the overrated KOTOR and BG1. I hope you don't think those silly games are better than DA2 or as my thread buddy would argue, your opinion is invalid. :D

 

ME2 does have one of the best ending sequences ever. It has that going for it and is far better than either DA or BG or KOTOR.

[NOK222]

I hope you don't think those silly games are better than DA2

 

You know, when an overwhelming (and sane) majority says otherwise, expect to be criticized a lot and then don't plant you're opinions like that they are everyone else's like you just did.

 

For example, I like Fallout 3 as much as I like NV, I don't say "Lol Fallout 3 is awesome lolol you all suck ****." I know that's my opinion and it's not a popular one, but I say it and move one and not try to make a case while trolling a thread and inciting argument.

 

Seriously dude.

Edited November 7, 2012 by NKKKK

[Lorfean]

That's not really how he works. Volourn only speaks in "facts". It's best not to take his posts too seriously.

[melkathi]

That's not really how he works. Volourn only speaks in "facts". It's best not to take his posts too seriously.

 

And if that is difficult, do what I did, spare yourself the headache and use the ignore function

[anubite]

After having played Dragon Age 2 some more, I have to say, it is in fact a much better game than KOTOR1 or BG1. I mean...

 

Anders. Oh god. He's so adorably funny! He had a pet cat but then he lost it :( it made me so sad to hear sir pounce a lot was taken away! Oh but he was so nice helping all the poor people in Kirkwall healing them. Even though I never saw him help or heal the poor or sick again, it convinced me that Anders was such a dreamy, gold-hearted young man. And then when I learned he had suffered with Justice in him all this time? And that all of Ander's actions were about justice? I felt all sad when I turned him down and made him mad! It just adds volumes of thought to his action to mercilessly slaughter hundreds of innocent people by secretly rigging a holy sanctum with a magical bomb though.

 

I mean, compare Anders to Carth! LOL THere's no comparison. Who would want a straight-faced yet snarky military man on a space-fairing journey? Anders would have made that game ten thousand times more funny and gripping.

 

And then there's Isabella. Who wouldn't want Isabella in their game? Look at Bastila - she's a 2d cardboard cutout. Isabella at least isn't afraid to hide the fact she's a loose party girl. The whole game of KOTOR1 is spent getting Bastila to stop being such a stuck up bitch! Oh, she's such a more shallow character than Isabella. She's just no fun either.

 

Then there's Aveline. Oh god she's written so well. I mean your character doesn't really talk to her much for the first year they're in service to the mercenary guy, and I guess she's busy with her job to talk to you - but she's soooo deep and complex. I mean, she asks other guards to watch you for her, even though she knows you'll be doing illegal stuff to get out of that debt-servitude? It was fascinating for her to comment off-handedly that she was proxy-stalking me. Oh but it was alright 'cause she explained that we're family and stuff after I helped her with that fetch quest. Family's got to stick together! I guess it was a good thing I stabbed her husband through the heart anyway.

 

Such deep drama, who would want somebody like that cat-woman-sith-jedi, whatever her name is - all I remember is that she was bisexual (it's funny but it's so much harder to remember the sexualities of all the DA2 characters because they're wrapped up in their complex personalities and they try really hard to hide what kind of things they like to bone!!!) and stupid and I never really had her in my party once but I've been really enjoying Aveline.

 

Oh and there's Fenris. Who would want an old bumpkin like Jolee Bindo in their party? He's soooo old and he talks about nothing and he's boring to listen to but Fenris - oh his story makes me cross my legs real tight and bite on my cheek because it's sooo sad :( he's an escaped magical slave warrior who's also very hot. He never gets over himself which is soooo believable and realistic.

 

And then there's Cullen. I don't think I need to even try to discuss him.

 

Overall, the cast of KOTOR is just... stupid! I mean, they're Star Wars characters. They could never compete with some deep, home-grown postmodern medieval characters dealing with their issues of bdsm or stds.

 

And let's not talk about the gameplay difference! Dragon Age 2 has AWESOME combat, first of all - it has waves. Secondly, it has a WIDE array of enemies. There are bandits, rogues, brigands, cutthroats, smugglers, contrabanders, transgressors, highwaymen, cutpurses, fences, thugs, swashbucklers, slavers, thieves, crooks, criminals, pirates, mercenaries, kidnappers, hostage-takers, human-trafficers, assassins, murderers, conmen, impersonators, burglars, robbers, larcenists, pickpockets, swindlers and spiders! And when you fight the non-spider rogue elementsin the game, they have a wide array of abilities. Some climb down from walls, some rappel off buildings, some run up from stairwells, and sometimes, they even appear out of thin air! Occasionally a big bad guy will stand around and shout for his allies to help him! And when his health gets low? He'll drink a potion! It's incredibly gripping real time with pause combat that really forces you to put your thinking cap on when you enter any fight. You have to deal with WAVES of enemies in every fight, which super complicates your strategy!

 

KOTOR1 is so flat. I mean, there are lots of aliens and stuff to fight but it's the same thing over and over and it's slow-paced and it's dumb and it's round-based so the numbers don't make sense - you don't even really see the big numbers like you do in WOW or SWTOR so it's not even the least bit fun...

 

But the best part about DA2 is the exploration. KOTOR1 just has a bunch of smelly planets - who cares about exploring dumb, half-deserted planets? DA2 is chok-full of caves, sandy coves and brothel rooms for you to explore, killing spiders, slavers, bandits, rogues, brigands, thieves and mercenaries! I was so wrong about this game!!!

Edited November 7, 2012 by anubite

[Lorfean]

[melkathi]

anubite, you had me worried for a moment

 

Regarding your comment about enemy variety and on a serious, non-sarcastic note, there is something that bothered me about DA2 enemies.

1) Abominations just appear out of the air. But abominations don't just appear, they are human hosts to demons. You cannot summon an abomination, yet on more than one occasion enemy spell casters summon them.

2) Wild packs of mabari hounds.

If the devs themselves don't respect the setting, world and lore they created, why should I as a customer bother with?

Edited November 7, 2012 by melkathi

[Hellfell]

Dragon Age 2 shoud've been called Dragon Age: Kirkwall or something as it was not THE sequel to DAO but a game in the same universe. The reception whould've been much smoother.