Should HP and stamina be determined by different attributes?

[Hormalakh]

Josh Sawyer has stated that the game world has two mechanics determining whether a character lives or dies: they are the health and the stamina of the character. Usually, health (or hitpoints) are determined by a single attribute: endurance (or constitution). Would you be interested in seeing two separate attributes effecting these two characteristics? For example, should endurance determine ones stamina, while health is determined by endurance and strength? Do you think this would be an interesting mechanic?

[Greensleeve]

Personally, I'd see Health be determined by level only, or maybe attribute only, regardless of class, whereas Stamina would be determined by Endurance/Constitution/etc. as well as Class.

[light487]

More than 2.. in old games with limited resources we are presented with a single stat "HP".. then as things get a little more resource friendly we get HP and Endurance/Stamina and so on.. but why should it be limited to old ways of thinking? We could dumb the whole thing down to "Vitality" and leave it at that.. Vitality would include everything related to health, physical and mental (yup! MP included!).. but that would just be silly to go backwards in the amount of detail.

 

Instead, we can take many different things and combine them together... race, class, endurance, constitution, training/skills, family background, upbringing, heck.. we could even go as far as to include environmental effects like air quality (in dungeons for example).. some of the "stats" could be directly affected by player choice, some could be chosen once (eg. race), others would not be something the player has direct control over..

 

The more complexity, the more realistic it is.. but the more complex it is, the harder it is to ensure balance throughout the entire gameplay experience. After all is said and done.. you still end up with basic stats.. Health and Stamina (or whatever you choose to call them or represent them in the game).

[AGX-17]

Personally, I'd see Health be determined by level only, or maybe attribute only, regardless of class, whereas Stamina would be determined by Endurance/Constitution/etc. as well as Class.

 

How do you deal with magical/spiritual classes in that scenario? It takes physical training to improve physical attributes. You don't become stronger and able to run farther, faster, by reading books.

[light487]

How do you deal with magical/spiritual classes in that scenario? It takes physical training to improve physical attributes. You don't become stronger and able to run farther, faster, by reading books.

 

Speed reading?

 

Just kidding

[rjshae]

It depends on what other attributes they will be adopting. I'm sure the developers have something in mind.

[Tamerlane]

Similar to rjsahe, I've no particular opinion on this. You can create a balanced and fun system in a number of ways, so long as the mechanics mesh.

[Odarbi]

Hearing Josh talk about it reminded me of the Vitality/Wound point variant system from D&D 3.5. Never played with that rule set, but always thought it'd be interesting.

 

As for whether it should be tied to 1 stat or several... I think that would depend on how in depth/complex their character creator ends up being. If they're going with a Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha type system close to what was used in the IE games, then tying it to the stat that indicates your physical fitness would make sense. If they go for a more skill point style character creation like Blades of Exile used, they could implement the HP and Vitality alongside the base stats/available skills and make it part of the entire character balance act, where having high HP and/or Vitality would then drain available skill points that can be used to level up your other stats/skills, like strength or lockpicking.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Odarbi

[HansKrSG]

I say it depends on how many stats they are going to have. If they are going for having both endurance and toughness (or equivalents), then they should use one stat for hp and one stat for stamina. If they go for the more traditional 4-6 different stats, where 1 stat measures general constitution, then I can't see any good justification to use more than 1 stat for both.

[Umberlin]

Crazy idea . . . leave the health static throughout levels, low for everyone, and with very little variance between classes. Have the main up front battery be Stamina and allow it to be the most modified. I don't think it's likely to happen, or even the most practical system, but it'd be interesting to see health loss as a truly bad thing, no matter how little was lost. Still, I can see plenty of reasons not to follow this method, and I highly doubt they will. I'd just be interesting to see stamina as the main buffer, so to speak.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Do it like Palladium. Health is tied to one attribute and doesn't progress with level. Stamina is what progresses as you level and can ave several other things to enhance it.

[Shevek]

I think Sawyer is on the right track. For this to work, Health damage should drain slowly and only be recouped at rest. Moreover, rest would need to be very limited. Still, this system could turn out very well.

[Hypevosa]

Health = bodily ability to sustain damage, so this would be your constitution.

 

Stamina = Ability to shirk off damage, comes with experience and training, this would be your "HP" gained per level

 

I have a D&D zombie campaign where we use a "vitality" point system which is basically that. You get your hp per level modified by your constitution as a normal hit point system, once you run out of that you start taking damage from your vitality score instead which is equal to your constitution score. If a critical hit is scored, instead of multiplying damage, it's just taken from your vitality points directly.

 

It makes things more interesting.

[1varangian]

This dual mechanic has a lot of good possibilities.

 

- Experience levels can increase Stamina instead of Health, which is great. High level NPC's who are in a defenseless state won't be protected by an unrealistic HP pool and can be damage to Health directly.

- Armor can protect against damage to Health but not necessarily Stamina

- Strength / Willpower / Dexterity can increase Stamina so it's not all about Constitution

- Fights can often be finished without injuries so healing magic won't be mandatory in the party

 

I like it a lot.

[Greensleeve]

Personally, I'd see Health be determined by level only, or maybe attribute only, regardless of class, whereas Stamina would be determined by Endurance/Constitution/etc. as well as Class.

 

How do you deal with magical/spiritual classes in that scenario? It takes physical training to improve physical attributes. You don't become stronger and able to run farther, faster, by reading books.

 

See Umberlin and KaineParker's responses. That's effectively what I had in mind.

[Tsuga C]

Stamina and HP both derive from natural ability and physical training, so I'd prefer that there were two (or more) variables that go into their determination.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Tsuga C

[john_boy]

Strength/Endurance combo sounds good - please no max hp on level up.

[MichaelStuart]

I would like Health to be a set amount and have stats (more than one) determine damage reduction.

[Hormalakh]

This dual mechanic has a lot of good possibilities.

 

- Experience levels can increase Stamina instead of Health, which is great. High level NPC's who are in a defenseless state won't be protected by an unrealistic HP pool and can be damage to Health directly.

- Armor can protect against damage to Health but not necessarily Stamina

- Strength / Willpower / Dexterity can increase Stamina so it's not all about Constitution

- Fights can often be finished without injuries so healing magic won't be mandatory in the party

 

I like it a lot.

 

So do I: that's why I was asking. It makes for a more interesting character creation too! Although, I do think that HP should be able to be increased on level ups or something - as you exercise, your health does improve. Lazy slobs sitting at home all day do actually have a decreased lifespan. Ultimately, it depends on what's more fun (all of this stuff is an abstraction anyway).

 

One thing that just crossed my mind that would be a very fun (and "realistic" mechanism) is alcohol drinking: it might increase your maximum stamina for a time, but it would decrease your health bar as well (if you get drunk). Something to that effect. Or something even more permanent: gettign a boost in stamina for a decreased HP through some drug.

[DCParry]

Personally, I'd see Health be determined by level only, or maybe attribute only, regardless of class, whereas Stamina would be determined by Endurance/Constitution/etc. as well as Class.

 

How do you deal with magical/spiritual classes in that scenario? It takes physical training to improve physical attributes. You don't become stronger and able to run farther, faster, by reading books.

 

I think we should do away with this justification. Perhaps when a character starts out, there could be a differentiation of starting health/stamina values, so let's say the diplomat is not as strapping as the former gladiator. Makes perfect sense.

 

However, once the game starts, once your progression starts, everyone (in your party) goes through the same trials, everyone fights the same monsters, and undergoes the same hardships. I think this makes an argument for MORE uniform health distribution. You could counter that a magic profession spends his free time praying or reading or whatever, but then does that mean that physical focused characters spend their free time running marathons and free lighting conveniently passing dwarves?

 

Also, in tabletop you could make the argument that training for each level for each class is vastly different (you would spend a month in the salon of noted fencer to train as a fighter or you would fast weeks with a hermit as a priest), but since training for levels is not customary in CRPGs (personally, unless written into the story, which would take a HUGE investment for panoply of classes, I think it shouldn't) this won't hold up either.

 

Back onto the main topic, I would like stamina at least to be spread out among more than one stat. My major issue with computer recreation of things like D&D is the need to game the system and min/max out the wazoo. Now, that is all fine and everything, there is nothing wrong with playing like that, but I would like a system that encourages a diversity of stats for a successful character, or if not encourages, perhaps awards it in a different way. Maybe have a stat like willpower feed into a bonus for stamina, that is you have the wherewithal to withstand fatigue which lets you do more with your stamina pool. Now of course, this wouldn't affect your actual health score (unless you are a monk I suppose, there could be a training to add that bonus as you have mastered your body to such an extent that you no longer feel pain the same way).

 

So, the sum up for health I would say a base score based on class or background (can be increased with starting perks or something) modified by a physical score (such as constitution, endurance as a term has too much variance I think), with increases coming either - the same every level for all characters OR only based on stat investment. After the initial creation, I would like to see no more d10/d8/d6 hit dice sort of things.

 

For stamina, a combination of a physical and mental (will power) score would be interesting. As for increase, as opposed to that, I think we should concentrate on how each class and its skills can make inventive use of the pool (warriors get reduction for physical actions, returns on stamina for certain moves or conditions, moments where they do things with stamina costs and so on).

Edited October 19, 2012 by DCParry

[SeekDWay]

More than 2 stats is the best choice for me. I'd rather have wisdom and dexterity provide a certain amount of stamina and strength provide small amounts of both, while constitution provides a lot of both. Very focused stat systems were never my thing especially in high level adventures. I think that If there is a level cap and it is kinda low the number of stats that provide hp and stamina should be low, but if there is no level cap or if it is very high there should be more ways to increase these 2 core stats, even if most of these stats would provide 1/5th or even 1/10th of what the core stats for stamina and hp would give.

[TrashMan]

Well, constitition would be a big factor for both.

Willpower would also be one for stamina.

 

Other than that, I don't see anything having a big impact.

[Greensleeve]

Well, as I see it, health is not something determined in anyway by training, just by your fortitude/bodily strength. It doesn't matter how much you train sword fighting, a stab to the heart will be as lethal as it would be to someone who's never been in a fight before. Thus, health should probably only be determined by a bodily attribute, similar to Constitution. MAYBE, some classes should get a flat bonus on it simply by being part of that class, representing supernatural hardiness manifested by your soul.

Essentially, health shouldn't really be something that changes over the adventurers career, unless her physical strength/hardiness changes.

 

Stamina, however, is something that could, and should, be increased depending on class and some attribute. If you do a lot of physical fighting, you'll have greater stamina then someone who keeps back, firing a musket or shooting spells. As the adventurer becomes more and more experienced, gets into more and more fights, she should be able to fight for longer without becoming tired, and a blow that might knock the air out of a less experienced fighter will be turned into merely a glancing blow.

[Sensuki]

Armor could make you more tired as well, reducing your stamina regeneration ?

[Humanoid]

Backing the derived-stamina and static-health wave here. Further, I'd try chopping out the notion of a constitution stat in the first place and try rolling it into strength. To balance, most hit chance modifiers will then end up as agility/dexterity related.

 

Strength - damage, stamina

Agility - chance to hit, avoidance

 

Then you could parallel the mental stats -

 

Mental strength = Intelligence

Mental agility = Wits

 

And have them affect spellcasting in a similar way. I'm a bit unsure about the ubiquitious charisma stat. Is it required in addition to wits, or perhaps as a replacement?

 

 

 

...I think I've sailed a fair way off course so I'll be quiet now.