Romance and friendship?

Loranc · October 17, 2012

Your main point was why should it happen since it's never done well. And my answer was if romance is added it's going to be done exceptionally well. Basically from what I understand is that you're only against it because it's not done well, so I answered your question by saying that it will be done 'exceptionally' well. Guess I was lazy in not going about explaining more, I'm kind of tired working 24 hours the last 2 days and getting about 4 hours of sleep.

Brother in arms is perfectly fine in of itself but I don't understand how romance would push your 'brother in arms' out of the way. I don't think anyone here is saying that they would prefer romance over a camaraderie. In fact most people want both, Not sure why you should have to sacrifice one for the other, if Sawyer adds romance to the game he's not going to cut 'friendship' or 'camaraderie' so to speak.

I'm assuming you're suggesting that the camaraderie should be enough for people and that romance isn't needed, asking what makes it so much more important to people. That's a hard one to answer because it's different for each person, for me personally as I've stated several times before want romance to be in the game in the way it was in PST and BG2.

It doesn't need to have VO or cut scenes, but romance does have a deeper impact on me than a camaraderie. It's all personal preference and to answer your question specifically would never work as you just stated brother in arms during war times... it's all based on real life experience, interests, hobby's, etc etc. What makes a person like one thing more than another, I have no idea...

I wouldn't call BG2 romances well done but I could live with maybe one romance like in PS:T .

And for all those who brings up Alpha Protocol, it's basicly pastiche/homage/spoof on spy-genre and especially James Bond, and imo doesn't compare to the fantasy RPG.

It's funny how people probably assumed we didn't agree with our discussion but in the end you living with one romance like PS:T puts us in 100% agreement, and basically that's all I'm asking for as well. I really should learn to sleep better but ever since switching to these 12 hour shifts, it's just killer on my sleeping habits.

I didn't like Alpha Protocol one bit... I tried to like it I really did. So I have no idea how the romances/bromances were incorporated into that game.

kenup · October 17, 2012

Eh, seriously I'm a damn hero worried with demons, undeads, bloody murders and w/e the worst of society can throw at me, you think that I will have time to think about romance?

Geez.

You know, even heroes sometimes cry and need a lovely hug.

(Having options in a game is always good),

As much as I love having options in games, I think having options is the problem, for any kind of relationship outcome. It's the gamer's interference that breaks things not the writers'(unless they are bad writers).

Smgcat · October 17, 2012

I would like to see friendships, but I would like the player character to make friends (and enemies) based on her actions, not just on some unrelated string of dialogues where I get "rewarded" with friendship-points, or whatever, if I pick the right choice. I like it when companions and other npcs have their own motivations and agenda and is not just mindless puppets.

As for love.... of course it should exist in the game, but I hope there will be no romance for the player character. I have not yet played a game where it was done well (and that includes BG2 btw, I see people hold that up as a shining example of romance excellence and I don't agree at all). It always ends up forced and silly, especially in games where the player character doesn't have a pre-set personality. In a game where you can be anything from a friendly giant berserker to a small fuzzy-eared sociopath mage, it will not make sense at all when the same npc falls in love with them and says the exact same lines. At best it's unintentionally funny, and at worst it ruins otherwise intersting characters by forcing them into a type of role where they don't fit at all. Now, try to imagine writing dialogue for every possible combination of player character personality type and romance npc(s), add options for male/female and straight/gay to all that and you got a LOT of work for a tiny and optional part of the game, and in the end it may still just end up being kinda pointless and bland.

Loranc · October 17, 2012

Loranc, I don't ever expect too much out of online discussions these days, that is very true. However, Ieo and I had a back and forth last night, around page 11 I believe, that was respectful and debated points and why we felt that way or what our concerns were. It was calm, respectful to each other, and expressed our opinions while explaining things to each other. So I was lulled into a moment of 'what a nice thread' for a moment.

Ahh I see, if only every discussion could remain that way. I for one try to never 'name' call, but I can't say for certainty that it doesn't happen. People have strong opinions and some of them 'really really' want romance to the level of willing to kill for it. I just would like it because I enjoy it and on a level of PS:T would be fine with me. The fact that people are this passionate about the game is a good thing though. Everyone wants their say in how the game should be, and I can't really argue with that point of view, everyone deserves a say, but the name calling and rudeness isn't necessary.

Takamori · October 17, 2012

Eh, seriously I'm a damn hero worried with demons, undeads, bloody murders and w/e the worst of society can throw at me, you think that I will have time to think about romance?

Geez.

You know, even heroes sometimes cry and need a lovely hug.

(Having options in a game is always good),

As much as I love having options in games, I think having options is the problem, for any kind of relationship outcome. It's the gamer's interference that breaks things not the writers'(unless they are bad writers).

Like I mentioned in my opinion the "romance" should come due to the player initiative , not from your npcs that out of nowhere falls in love for your hero due to his "heroic acts", besides being a overused formula, makes no sense , it's just a guy doing his duty.

Also someone mentioned "friendship points" , please this is a so wrong concept of friendship, you teach your player that friendship is a bloody score, at least in my point of view this is anti ethical.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Takamori

Rahelron · October 17, 2012

Eh, seriously I'm a damn hero worried with demons, undeads, bloody murders and w/e the worst of society can throw at me, you think that I will have time to think about romance?

Geez.

You know, even heroes sometimes cry and need a lovely hug.

Well I'm not against the option(Having options in a game is always good), but hope its not throw in my face like certain games, make the hero take the initiative.

Person : Oh you are so heroic while you behead those villains!All this blood makes me fall in love for you!

Protagonist:

Ahahah

You are right. The way the NPCs hit on you in DA2 was really incredible. You just had to hit the "flirt button" once and they started loving you out of nowhere.

I hope we will get something better with PE

Ieo · October 17, 2012

Loranc, I don't ever expect too much out of online discussions these days, that is very true. However, Ieo and I had a back and forth last night, around page 11 I believe, that was respectful and debated points and why we felt that way or what our concerns were. It was calm, respectful to each other, and expressed our opinions while explaining things to each other. So I was lulled into a moment of 'what a nice thread' for a moment.

Page 11 is the only worthwhile page in this thread. :shifty:

DocDoomII · October 17, 2012

I'd like something along the lines of Annah in Torment.

And I mean both the level of interaction/romance and the romance interest to be a redhead :dancing:

Kimuji · October 17, 2012

The only thing we need is an Alvin romance, whatever the race or gender. :biggrin:

Edited October 17, 2012 by Kimuji

Lurky · October 17, 2012

You know, even heroes sometimes cry and need a lovely hug.

You know, that can be fulfilled perfectly with a deep friendship too. Why does that have to be romance exclusive?

Seriously, that's a big reason why so many people dislike romances. They take all our close relationships and leave those of us who aren't interested in romances starving

Edited October 17, 2012 by Lurky

jarpie · October 17, 2012

Your main point was why should it happen since it's never done well. And my answer was if romance is added it's going to be done exceptionally well. Basically from what I understand is that you're only against it because it's not done well, so I answered your question by saying that it will be done 'exceptionally' well. Guess I was lazy in not going about explaining more, I'm kind of tired working 24 hours the last 2 days and getting about 4 hours of sleep.

Brother in arms is perfectly fine in of itself but I don't understand how romance would push your 'brother in arms' out of the way. I don't think anyone here is saying that they would prefer romance over a camaraderie. In fact most people want both, Not sure why you should have to sacrifice one for the other, if Sawyer adds romance to the game he's not going to cut 'friendship' or 'camaraderie' so to speak.

I'm assuming you're suggesting that the camaraderie should be enough for people and that romance isn't needed, asking what makes it so much more important to people. That's a hard one to answer because it's different for each person, for me personally as I've stated several times before want romance to be in the game in the way it was in PST and BG2.

It doesn't need to have VO or cut scenes, but romance does have a deeper impact on me than a camaraderie. It's all personal preference and to answer your question specifically would never work as you just stated brother in arms during war times... it's all based on real life experience, interests, hobby's, etc etc. What makes a person like one thing more than another, I have no idea...

I wouldn't call BG2 romances well done but I could live with maybe one romance like in PS:T .

And for all those who brings up Alpha Protocol, it's basicly pastiche/homage/spoof on spy-genre and especially James Bond, and imo doesn't compare to the fantasy RPG.

It's funny how people probably assumed we didn't agree with our discussion but in the end you living with one romance like PS:T puts us in 100% agreement, and basically that's all I'm asking for as well. I really should learn to sleep better but ever since switching to these 12 hour shifts, it's just killer on my sleeping habits.

I didn't like Alpha Protocol one bit... I tried to like it I really did. So I have no idea how the romances/bromances were incorporated into that game.

"Romances" in Alpha Protocol were basicly done like in James Bond films, so it's not at all suitable for comparison as some people have brought it up as a game which had romances.

Merin · October 17, 2012

There is a game with achievements for the romances? I hope you're making this up. I'm losing faith in mankind by the minute here. I can just see it now:

Achievement Unlocked: Gotta **** 'em All

Achievement Unlocked: Booty Bounty

Achievement Unlocked: Scissor me Xerxes!

Edit:

Achievement Unlocked: Donkey Desires

Achievement Unlocked: You Can Do WHAT With Your Tongue!?!

Well you get achievements for romancing each character that can be romanced in DA and ME. That's a pretty much open admission as to how important Bioware thinks these things are.

In Alpha Protocol you got an achievement if you slept with all the women in one playthrough even.

But, to be fair, you were given the option to play James Bond, so...

Loranc · October 17, 2012

I'd like something along the lines of Annah in Torment.

And I mean both the level of interaction/romance and the romance interest to be a redhead

Heh... Leliana was a red head, and I loved her voice. That is one voice over I actually enjoyed. However... stating it for the umpteenth time, could of done without the sex scenes.

mindx2 · October 17, 2012

Since Obsidian wants our opinions I'll state mine here in regards to romances: NO!... please. Romance/ sex does NOT equal deep characterization. There are so many other ways to convey emotion (friendship/platonic love/brother-in-arms/love of family/etc.) that doesn't lead to the inevitable bedroom romp. To me this comes across as juvinielle and stereotipical. Focus on characterization which does NOT equate to sex. Saywer and MCA are smarter than that.

Ruka · October 17, 2012

If the romance is like Baulder's Gate II then yes, but if it's like Mass Effect then no.

Loranc · October 17, 2012

I see.... Ieo and I went to bed(or off to wherever) and any kind of mature, respectful conversation regarding a topic that is tied directly into a fully fleshed out diverse and deep world was tossed out the window with insults, 'not in MY game' comments and other-company-bashing.

Riiiiiiiiight.

NOW I see why the mods kept closing the other threads about romance while I was a lurker.

It is rather depressing isn't it?

Here's the thing, though...

it's usually closed as a result of someone finally taking the bait. Anytime a romance thread pops up, there's a crew of about a half-dozen regulars who come in and start calling people names (biodrones, promancers, "lonely basement dwellers with body pillows", whatever), start posting a lot of negativity, and then start making "serious suggestions" about raping dragons and such - all in an effort to poison the conversation, provoke strong reactions, and get the threads closed down.

And they rarely get called to task.

If it just remained people civilly discussing pro's and con's, or their personal preferences, these threads wouldn't be so long and the topic wouldn't be so heated.

But for all the talk of "people coming over from BioWare" and "ruining things" - it's my fervent opinion that most of the problem from romances on the forums comes from the virulently anti-romance crowd.

Well, and games are mostly to blame for that. I stated in an earlier post that they really have corrupted a person's way of thinking in resemblance to Hollywood. (being that they can't produce a movie without T&A being in it anymore.) Random shower scenes, pool scenes, things thrown in as eye candy because it gets more people to watch the movie. Well, ever since the first games started experimenting with how far they can take it, they saw the $$$ signs. Now it's become a cliche so to speak and a part of our gaming society.

Since Obsidian wants our opinions I'll state mine here in regards to romances: NO!... please. Romance/ sex does NOT equal deep characterization. There are so many other ways to convey emotion (friendship/platonic love/brother-in-arms/love of family/etc.) that doesn't lead to the inevitable bedroom romp. To me this comes across as juvinielle and stereotipical. Focus on characterization which does NOT equate to sex. Saywer and MCA are smarter than that.

I agree that there are several different ways to express and convey emotion, but let me ask you this. If the romance did not include sex and was in no way intrusive or a major part of the storyline (meaning that you wouldn't notice it unless you were looking for it) and done in a way that truly did enrich the character(s) it was implemented for, would it bother you to the point of still being 100% against it?

Rahelron · October 17, 2012

You know, even heroes sometimes cry and need a lovely hug.

You know, that can be fulfilled perfectly with a deep friendship too. Why does that have to be romance exclusive?

Seriously, that's a big reason why so many people dislike romances. They take all our close relationships and leave those of us who aren't interested in romances starving

Yeah. Even in real life people can live without love. But it's not a good life, at least I think it isn't.

Tale · October 17, 2012

Let's stick to the discussion of romances.

Moving on to a meta-discussion of "who is to blame for romance threads being so bad" is just going to feed hostility as people start pointing fingers at one another.

Adhin · October 17, 2012

What Ruka said, if its like BG2 I'm all for it. I like most romances even some of the ME ones, but ME1-3 all felt kind of shallow in how they handled them.

That said they've done them before (and before BioWare) with Planescape: Tormenet. And that game just wouldn't be the same to me with out Annah coming to terms with the fact she cares or someone, or Fall From Grace dealing with the fact she kills people just by kissing them, and then heres this guy whos more or less immortal... its well, PST is just an awesome game either way.

In the end romance in games, like movies, often adds more to the flavor of the game... though is often done poorly. And I'd rather it be there in some capacity then not but I'll enjoy the game with or with out it, I'll just enjoy it a hell of a lot more with it available.

kenup · October 17, 2012

There is a game with achievements for the romances? I hope you're making this up. I'm losing faith in mankind by the minute here. I can just see it now:

Achievement Unlocked: Gotta **** 'em All

Achievement Unlocked: Booty Bounty

Achievement Unlocked: Scissor me Xerxes!

Edit:

Achievement Unlocked: Donkey Desires

Achievement Unlocked: You Can Do WHAT With Your Tongue!?!

Well you get achievements for romancing each character that can be romanced in DA and ME. That's a pretty much open admission as to how important Bioware thinks these things are.

In Alpha Protocol you got an achievement if you slept with all the women in one playthrough even.

But, to be fair, you were given the option to play James Bond, so...

Am I the only one who didn't play AP like a James Bond movie?

Bos_hybrid · October 17, 2012

Am I the only one who didn't play AP like a James Bond movie?

I didn't, but that's because I don't remember James Bond ever getting raped.

Adhin · October 17, 2012

...heh what? Oh you mean the buff aggressive chick... right yeah. That wasn't really rape, and bond has had that level of aggressive women before plenty of times. Watch the movies again.

kenup · October 17, 2012

Am I the only one who didn't play AP like a James Bond movie?

I didn't, but that's because I don't remember James Bond ever getting raped.

My MT never got raped. And I never saw CIE, she had funny interactions but that's about it, besides the one mission she's always in. I used Albatross as a handler whenever I could.

Hoverdog · October 17, 2012

Baldur's Gate didn't have any romances. PS:T didn't have any in the biotard meaning of the word (the relationships weren't about ego-stroking the player). The decline all started with BG2.

Morality Games · October 17, 2012

Baldur's Gate didn't have any romances. PS:T didn't have any in the biotard meaning of the word (the relationships weren't about ego-stroking the player). The decline all started with BG2.

Very few people are arguing for it in the "biotard" sense of the word. They want to see what Obsidian can do with the concept.

Romance and friendship?

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