Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part II).

[The Guilty Party]

I agree, in general. I don't mind a bit of flash, but swords that people might actually hold, armor that might actually protect you from a pointed stick, and helms that don't get caught on every tree branch you walk under would be nice.

[Shadenuat]

ere's an example of an armor that's very much in the fantasy realm, but doesn't go too far :

 

Warhammer is a king of style in armor and, well, almost everything - they have to sell these little elves (that's a White Lion of Chrace) in lead and plastic. Sadly, that style was overused due to one specific studio, and then by many others, who did't knew why exactly giant shoulders and humongous amount of detail on armour made sense in that setting.

Also, that is, as I said, an elvish armour. Elves are elite there, and Lions of Chrace in particular. Bretonnians, for example, have something you'd expect from regular humans: http://chaosorc.com/...a Boxed Set.jpg

As well as Empire: http://1.bp.blogspot.../empire__1_.jpg

 

Peasantry and militia in rags, leutenants in steel, High Elves of Ulthuan from elite order in "fantasy" armor... yeah, it's actually (gasp!) logic in Fantasy.

I wonder where would "adventurer" type fit in P:E.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Shadenuat

[sparklecat]

I'd actually love to see a bit of ridiculous arms and armour put in. With the appropriate stats, of course.

 

 

I could see a shop on the main tourist street of first big city you come to selling it!

[SKahn]

Oh dear, yes! I can only sign this plea: No overdimensional swords. No revealing unrealistic armor for women (it has become a really boring clichee by now). And please, no kind of armor that no sensible person would wear because of the weight or overdimensioned parts. There is so much good-looking, realistic armor out there - stick to that, dear developers.

 

Actually I can see OE putting this in as a joke or easter egg. Meet random adventuring party who don't have a clue what they are doing and will get slaughtered very quickly without any advice from the player.

 

That would be hysterical. Great idea. Even when I was young I hated the massive final fantasy sword/guns.

 

Part if the reason I supported this game is because their previous work has been intelligent and restrained in those ways. And part of the reason is that They are actually gamers, making what they like. I used to think that the age of games like PS:T and BG was gone. But now we get to see what they can do with modern tech. I don't know how I'm going to wait.

[Feynt]

Actually, I could see them putting in a couple joke weapons or pieces of armour. A sord perhaps, or other iconic weapons and armour from popular movies, comics, or games that are unfeasible and likely carry penalties that make them inferior to (but still as usable as) any other option available to you. Another example could be Cloud's buster sword: Always last in initiative, -whatever to hit, but +DAMN damage with a high critical hit range.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Feynt

[Gryzor]

I've always found it funny in RPGs how any plate armour will have molded breasts and slim waist only if equipped on a female PC. I don't know if armour was ever traditionally designed differently for male and female body shapes but it could be interesting to have armour for both gender types in the game. Nothing would prevent a PC from wearing either type but it could result in negative modifiers if wearing armour designed for the opposite gender.

[Tamerlane]

Erm, this is Obsidian we're talking about, and they're creating a game with it's roots in IE games. Do you recall there being any gaudy equipment in that game? Plate-mail was plate mail. Swords were swords. The detail was in the descriptions and whatever you could find in the image that went along with it. Yeah, we're working with 3D now, so that offers some room for flair, but even then, based on character art so far, and the team working on this game, I just don't see this being a huge concern. So relax, it'll be fine!

I do recall Minsc spending most of BG2 wearing all pink...

[TheDogProfessor]

I've always found it funny in RPGs how any plate armour will have molded breasts and slim waist only if equipped on a female PC. I don't know if armour was ever traditionally designed differently for male and female body shapes but it could be interesting to have armour for both gender types in the game. Nothing would prevent a PC from wearing either type but it could result in negative modifiers if wearing armour designed for the opposite gender.

 

Historically, plate-mail had several layers: a hell of padding, chain and then the plate on the exterior. After the padding, potentially, leather and chain, there would be absolutely no reason why the plate would need to fit breasts as they -- for the overwhelmingly vast majority of instances -- wouldn't make a difference.

Here's a realistic example which is chainmail (layers: padding and chain), not plate in which the breasts would be even less pronounced in:

Edited October 18, 2012 by Ape_Style

[ComMcNeil]

I've always found it funny in RPGs how any plate armour will have molded breasts and slim waist only if equipped on a female PC. I don't know if armour was ever traditionally designed differently for male and female body shapes but it could be interesting to have armour for both gender types in the game. Nothing would prevent a PC from wearing either type but it could result in negative modifiers if wearing armour designed for the opposite gender.

 

Historically, plate-mail had several layers: a hell of padding, chain and then the plate on the exterior. After the padding, potentially, leather and chain, there would be absolutely no reason why the plate would need to fit breasts as they -- for the overwhelmingly vast majority of instances -- wouldn't make a difference.

 

I think the bigger question is, had anyone EVER though of the problem of breast size inside full plate armor? I mean, has a woman ever worn a plate mail in the middle ages? I dont think armor smiths really considered that, so I dont think they made plate mail that was comfortable to wear for females.

And of course you are right, you had several layers of clothing under the plate, so most likely your breasts were already "pressed flat" - which I think would be quite uncomfortable in general, nevermind the plate

[Monte Carlo]

Boob plate discussion:

 

 

The devs have made their stance clear --- they are achingly-PC on the matter. It troubles me not.

 

On to weapons. The types of weapons in an RPG are there simply for flavour. Many weapons in R/L aren't suitable for fighting anywhere other than on a nice open battlefield, and in quantity.

 

The best example might be polearms.

 

 

Not much use in a dungeon.

 

As for our old favourite, the two-handed sword... designed to allow for infantry assault on aforementioned pikemen to break up their ranks. Not much use in an enclosed space.

 

 

Good weapons for small groups fighting in close combat aren't actually that big...

 

This military hammer is a nasty SOB but pretty compact.

 

[Krikkert]

I agree with the OP. All weapons and armor shud look realistic and practical. A sword so big that realiticly it wud take 3-4 grown men to lift it is NOT cool. So tired of that in RPGs

[TheDogProfessor]

I've always found it funny in RPGs how any plate armour will have molded breasts and slim waist only if equipped on a female PC. I don't know if armour was ever traditionally designed differently for male and female body shapes but it could be interesting to have armour for both gender types in the game. Nothing would prevent a PC from wearing either type but it could result in negative modifiers if wearing armour designed for the opposite gender.

Historically, plate-mail had several layers: a hell of padding, chain and then the plate on the exterior. After the padding, potentially, leather and chain, there would be absolutely no reason why the plate would need to fit breasts as they -- for the overwhelmingly vast majority of instances -- wouldn't make a difference.

I think the bigger question is, had anyone EVER though of the problem of breast size inside full plate armor? I mean, has a woman ever worn a plate mail in the middle ages? I dont think armor smiths really considered that, so I dont think they made plate mail that was comfortable to wear for females. And of course you are right, you had several layers of clothing under the plate, so most likely your breasts were already "pressed flat" - which I think would be quite uncomfortable in general, nevermind the plate

The most breasts are not large enough for this to be a problem. Even so, the plate wouldn't add extra pressure as it's the outermost layer.

 

Something like this could be appropriate:

<img src="http://www.swordmaiden.net/home/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Lady-Eichling-217x300.jpg" /><br />

 

But even then, this(^) armour is more akin to breast-plate (forgive the unintended pun) than to plate mail. I maintain that, for the vast majority of cases, that plate mail designed for a female would be as flat as if it were designed for a male.

 

Here is a good blog on the topic: http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/

The historical examples from this webpage show no, or very little, extra room for breasts.

 

As Monte Carlo put it, the discussion of boob plate is flogging a dead horse: boob plate didn't exist; it's mostly fan service.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Ape_Style

[TheDogProfessor]

@ Monte Carlo,

The Lucerne Hammer is an awesome weapon!

 

>Oh no: the knight in impervious full plate has arrived on the battlefield. What are we to do?

>Never fear; the Lucerne Hammer is here!!

Edited October 18, 2012 by Ape_Style

[Ravnos Malkavian]

Held one in my hands just a few days ago, in our wonderful History museum here in Luzern

[Karranthain]

ere's an example of an armor that's very much in the fantasy realm, but doesn't go too far :

 

Warhammer is a king of style in armor and, well, almost everything - they have to sell these little elves (that's a White Lion of Chrace) in lead and plastic. Sadly, that style was overused due to one specific studio, and then by many others, who did't knew why exactly giant shoulders and humongous amount of detail on armour made sense in that setting.

Also, that is, as I said, an elvish armour. Elves are elite there, and Lions of Chrace in particular. Bretonnians, for example, have something you'd expect from regular humans: http://chaosorc.com/...a Boxed Set.jpg

As well as Empire: http://1.bp.blogspot.../empire__1_.jpg

 

Peasantry and militia in rags, leutenants in steel, High Elves of Ulthuan from elite order in "fantasy" armor... yeah, it's actually (gasp!) logic in Fantasy.

I wonder where would "adventurer" type fit in P:E.

 

Warhammer has a good mix of historical influence and fantasy designs, I think it's a decent compromise.

 

 

I'm hoping you can look like that in PE

[TrashMan]

I think the bigger question is, had anyone EVER though of the problem of breast size inside full plate armor? I mean, has a woman ever worn a plate mail in the middle ages? I dont think armor smiths really considered that, so I dont think they made plate mail that was comfortable to wear for females.

And of course you are right, you had several layers of clothing under the plate, so most likely your breasts were already "pressed flat" - which I think would be quite uncomfortable in general, nevermind the plate

 

Shouldn't be a problem. Breasts aren't rigid and usually aren't that big.

Especially if you're a warrior woman. Your body would develop in more atheltic direction.

[Karranthain]

And another decent example from Warhammer :

 

[Nithy]

My vote is for realistic armor & weapons. I too am tired of over the top fantasy armor & weapons.

[Coincidence]

I don't have much to add, but I'd also like there to not be TOO many outlandish weapons and armor, although if it's some legendary item with neat lore I can understand.

[AgentOrange]

I think Demon's Souls and Dark Souls have a nice balance between fantasy and realistic medieval designs. They have over-sized swords and hammers and such, but the over-sized weapons, the swords in particular, look like massive hunks of unwieldy metal and stone; the animations also help, in that wielding a massive weapon is visibly far different than wielding a dagger, but of course such intricate animation isn't really an option in an IE style game...maybe.

 

Here is the Ultra Greatsword class weapon the Demon Great Machete.

 

[void_dp]

Yeah when i come home, will post some examples of nice realistic armor from Dark Souls

Edited October 18, 2012 by void_dp

[Karranthain]

This outfit looks quite good as well (and that character looks somewhat similar to Edair) :

 

 

I'd imagine it'd befit an adventurer well.

[UncleBourbon]

@ Monte Carlo,

The Lucerne Hammer is an awesome weapon!

 

>Oh no: the knight in impervious full plate has arrived on the battlefield. What are we to do?

>Never fear; the Lucerne Hammer is here!!

 

The last pen and paper campaign I played in had a paladin running around with a lucerne hammer from level 1 crushing just about everything we ran in to before it could reach us.

That said, I would drastically love to see the bastard sword and hand-and-a-half weapons return/be present, with the option to wield in one or both hands. For fun, I'd like them to implement what Ragnarok Online had with Sages - akin to ciphers, from what I can tell. Their weapons were tomes (or could be. Each gave certain bonuses to skills/spells). The caveat was that even the highest level tomes did meager damage (fairly high speed, though). Later, they introduced a skill line to specialize in book combat, increasing the damage to that of a basic sword - still weak compared to others of the same level, but some self-defense. The major joy was duel-wielding tomes and just listening to the thwacking as you bludgeoned slimes to death.

[Fog]

Practical armors and realistic weapons are what the majority of us are after, I'm hoping for armors with the same looks for men and women without being ugly and too bulky.

[Dwarfare]

There's a fine line that one must strike, I believe.

 

Purely medieval type armors, purely practical, while I find them interesting, I also find them incredibly bland and boring to look at for the most part. As far as weapons and the like, they're all too often quite plain as well, with little enough to differentiate between them, and are often not used in the way one would imagine, or hold up nearly as well in actual combat. While we're at it, the sound effects for combat might as well be the obsidian team throwing a bunch of pots and pans in a washer/dryer and hitting "record".

 

The other end of the spectrum is no better. No, I don't want my character to look like he's wearing a neon plastic castle. I don't want his greatest enemy to be doorways that fail to accommodate for the fellows who like to have 5 foot spikes jutting out in all directions from their armor. I don't want to be swinging Big Ben at somebody, for that matter, either. The realm of the absurd is not something that meshes well with immersion, in my mind.

 

I think most of the artists that got their conceptual work in the D&D books and whatnot have typically done rather well at this (not always), striking the right balance between practicality, realism and the fantastical. That is, they didn't bother adhering to strongly to any one of those three principles. They provide a little something more than what one would normally see in the real world without taking it so far that it loses all connection to what one would associate with reality. I found that level of variance from the norm to be vastly superior to what, say, WoW does, or Dragon Age 2.

 

Being the kind of game it is, with the people that are working on it, I'm quite confident they'll strike the balance just about right.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Dwarfare