Mass effect Trilogy

[BBMorti]

It's not that you like Dragon Age 2, is that you call everyone else who doesn't like it people that don't seem to comprehend RPGs, because apparently you have a better understanding than all of us.

 

This is where the satire comes in. Volourn is hardly unique in presenting his position in this way. In virtually every forum that has RPG focused discussion this comes up a lot. Mind numbingly so.

 

 

 

 

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What do you expect to find as topics of discussion on RPG focused forums? You might as well be shocked to discover the grass is still green every morning.

[Volourn]

"Nah. My opinion > Your opinion. "

 

i agree with your opinion.

[endlessmug]

While great strides have been made in the technical aspects of game design, a lot of the charm has been lost by excessive streamlining, railroading and fear of innovation in the weakest aspect of games in general - storytelling.

 

As opposed to what games, curious?

[Drowsy Emperor]

While great strides have been made in the technical aspects of game design, a lot of the charm has been lost by excessive streamlining, railroading and fear of innovation in the weakest aspect of games in general - storytelling.

 

As opposed to what games, curious?

 

When Bioware is concerned, everything post ToB. Looking beyond Bioware, its more or less the state of the hobby itself.

[Nepenthe]

I'm trying really hard to think of what the storytelling innovations in ToB were.

 

Seriously, though, I'm old enough to have played the late 80s early 90s gold box ad&d games, which is probably the reason why I don't walk around with this jilted lover attitude - Bioware was never on a pedestal to me, so it couldn't fall off one, either.

[Bos_hybrid]

I'm trying really hard to think of what the storytelling innovations in ToB were.

 

Don't try too hard, because there wasn't any.

 

Seriously, though, I'm old enough to have played the late 80s early 90s gold box ad&d games, which is probably the reason why I don't walk around with this jilted lover attitude - Bioware was never on a pedestal to me, so it couldn't fall off one, either.

 

So your not a crotchety old codger complaining about how things were better when they were younger? Blasphemer!

[Nepenthe]

So your not a crotchety old codger complaining about how things were better when they were younger? Blasphemer!

Yeah, more money, no homework, cured from near-paralyzing shyness... I got **** all to reminisce about.

[Drowsy Emperor]

In term of general storytelling (as in world literature or something) there weren't any obviously. In terms of what computer games have done before (or since) BG series was (and is) pretty fresh.

 

It seems to me a fact that their post ToB games focused on the standard "save the world" as jedi/specter/grey whatever tripe according to a set formula. Except perhaps Jade Empire, but that game had other problems. I'm indifferent towards Bioware, really - I was much more interested when I hoped that they might make a truly original game again. That's not going to happen. So *shrug*.

 

Its really not their fault, like with music bands or directors you get one groundbreaking work, maybe two - the rest is mostly repetition until people start to mind and then the emperor suddenly has no clothes and the game is up.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Nepenthe]

In term of general storytelling (as in world literature or something) there weren't any obviously. In terms of what computer games have done before (or since) BG series was (and is) pretty fresh.

The things in BG1 (and more so in two) were a resurrection of the classic CRPG formula after a ~5-8 year break and moving to a "protagonist" + NPCs formula... and even in the gold boxes you had fairly memorable characters, in fact I'd say Vala the Amazonian (from Secret of the Silver Blades) kicks the butt of most BG1 NPCs, even if it was just her in a group of 6 anonymous player gens.

It seems to me a fact that their post ToB games focused on the standard "save the world" as jedi/specter/grey whatever tripe according to a set formula. Except perhaps Jade Empire, but that game had other problems. I'm indifferent towards Bioware, really - I was much more interested when I hoped that they might make a truly original game again. That's not going to happen. So *shrug*.

Jade Empire and DA2 mostly. Gues the reception those two got will make sure we'll see more of the cookiecutter stuff... kind of like BG1. BG2 is a lot more original in the sense that it has a personal dimension, albeit a different one from DA2, while ToB isn't.

Its really not their fault, like with music bands or directors you get one groundbreaking work, maybe two - the rest is mostly repetition until people start to mind and then the emperor suddenly has no clothes and the game is up.

Nah, it's just that it wasn't the emperor you saw, just maybe a duke or a marquess.

 

No, seriously, I'm starting to sound like some of you gaming hipsters now, but for entirely the wrong reason. I use, or at least try to use, the same criteria for all games, instead of pumping my "**** yeah" fist at mindless shooter crap and then whipping out the monocle and cognac for postmodernist analysis of the Bioware games. In this case, even with all their faults, Bioware games are so much better than anything anyone apart from Obsidian or Eidos Montreal can do that it's not funny. And that's what they deserve to be measured against, not some idealized view of what a present-day BG2 would look like.

[GhostofAnakin]

In this case, even with all their faults, Bioware games are so much better than anything anyone apart from Obsidian or Eidos Montreal can do that it's not funny. And that's what they deserve to be measured against, not some idealized view of what a present-day BG2 would look like.

 

This kind of sums up why, as disappointed as I am with how ME3 turned out, and as disappointed as I am with the direction they took DA2, I still hope BioWare can turn things around, and why I'm not ready to jump on the "hope they go out of business" bandwagon. Perhaps their current games aren't as good as games of the past, but in comparison to what's available today, they're still near the top of the heap.

 

To use a bar scene analogy: a bar you frequent used to be crowded with hot looking women, but over the last couple of years the women have downgraded from average to below average. While I might yearn for the days when hot women were plentiful, I'd still rather the average women stick around than be surrounded by a bunch of ugly trolls.

 

In comparison to what other choices we currently have (no matter how much people wish it were different), BioWare's still one of the decent RPG developers, IMO.

[Malcador]

Are you just comparing Bioware's games to RPGs or just games today ?

[Drowsy Emperor]

No, seriously, I'm starting to sound like some of you gaming hipsters now, but for entirely the wrong reason. I use, or at least try to use, the same criteria for all games, instead of pumping my "**** yeah" fist at mindless shooter crap and then whipping out the monocle and cognac for postmodernist analysis of the Bioware games. In this case, even with all their faults, Bioware games are so much better than anything anyone apart from Obsidian or Eidos Montreal can do that it's not funny. And that's what they deserve to be measured against, not some idealized view of what a present-day BG2 would look like.

 

Well since we have been slinging **** at each other on this forum for such a long time you're entitled to a fair (and long) response.

 

There's no disputing that BW makes games to a fairly high standard in an industry that doesn't have any standards at all. That's so obvious I don't even see the need to point it out.

And the gaming media and a horde of loyal fans recognize this and support them for it, so its not like they get unfair treatment by the majority. Indeed the places where they're actively criticized are few.

 

But we aren't representatives of either (at least I'm not) so I can only speak for myself. And after 12 years in this hobby, if it even deserves to be called that, I've seen it all (though this may sound pompous you'll agree that games aren't really hard to encompass) and I'm tired of the mainstream. I'm on the lookout for the under 1% of games that push the artistic and creative boundaries of what a game can offer, in the vein of the upcoming "The Last Guardian" - basically gaming (poor) equivalent of art film.

 

Bioware simply isn't there. They're 100% mainstream through and through. Top class in it too, which is great for people that can still derive enjoyment from it. I hoped considering how well funded they were, considering how other RPG dev teams mostly died away and considering that they did a great thing with BG, which is my first love in the hobby that they might do something experimental and daring after so many years of experience making games. In retrospect it was a silly thing to hope for, the very success they achieved and the huge risks carried by big budget projects practically made it certain that they mustn't experiment or alter a winning formula.

 

That's my position on this issue, and I have to look at BW's and indeed everyone's offerings through these "high artistic standards" because I don't really want to spend time playing anything else other than that 1%, especially in the RPG genre where I've played so many games and of whose tropes I'm rather tired.

I just can't justify the huge time invested and, indeed, the hobby itself otherwise (at my age too).

 

 

PS: regarding the BG games. In all honesty, Planescape Torment's spot in that 1% I describe is far more certain than the Baldur's Gate series which I think were perfect games, in the sense that its maybe even impossible to make a better, more fulfilling game than BGII. I think the trilogy is more than the sum of its parts (which is considerable in itself) when you take into account of how many game series devolve into rubbish over time, fail to resolve their stories, fail at even basic plot coherence or continuity. Granted the trilogy is more of 2+half a game but in the video game world you could say it had the good sense to wrap things up decently and bow out when it was time to leave. It took the engine, the gameplay, the story and the characters as far as they were going to go and for video game standards that was pretty far indeed.

It may not be art house, but it sure is the pinnacle of something - and for they at least have to be taken into consideration when BW releases any new game.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Volourn]

"I'm indifferent towards Bioware, really "

 

No, you aren't. Unless youa re losing a different definition of idnifferent. You have posted so many posts about BIO - mostly negative - to try to pretend you are indifferent. Just be honest and admit your hatred of them like others do.

 

 

"It seems to me a fact that their post ToB games focused on the standard "save the world" as jedi/specter/grey whatever tripe according to a set formula. "

 

That was what BG was largely about. How is BG any less about 'save the world' than NWN OC, KOTOR, or DA? It isn't.

 

 

"In term of general storytelling (as in world literature or something) there weren't any obviously. In terms of what computer games have done before (or since) BG series was (and is) pretty fresh."

 

There is NOTHINJG original or fresh about the BG series. ME, DA, JE (espicially), and NWN all have more original and fresh ideas than BG overall thoguh their stories aren't enccessarily original. But, BG doesn't even have that. BG series is good but that doesn't mean it's original. Oh, plus, BG1 is vastly overrated. I would be lucky to call it an average game. BG2, of course, is one of the best games ever, but it isn't oozing in originality.

 

 

"And after 12 years in this hobby"

 

Newbie. :D

[GhostofAnakin]

Are you just comparing Bioware's games to RPGs or just games today ?

 

RPG games. For the most part, I prefer RPGs more than any other type of "genre". So I'm not going to bother comparing Bio to developers who make games that I don't play, even if they're universally loved.

[Gorth]

Slightly tangential, but I think XCOM is a good example of the problems that the gaming industry is up against if they want to stay in business. I still haven't found the motivation to finish off the last parts of the temple ship, because I simply don't care. It's that strange thing trying to balance gloss and packaging versus content. The cinematics are nice, but once the initial impression wears off, you are left with a very shallow game, which literally is just a small subset of the original. Games with great cinematics tends to become forgettable whereas games with great mechanics tends to become classics (IMO).

 

Tells more about today's market than the developers really, when the need for so much 'cinematics' and "risk management" is considered necessary to have a fighting chance of selling something to a wider audience.

[Malcador]

RPG games. For the most part, I prefer RPGs more than any other type of "genre". So I'm not going to bother comparing Bio to developers who make games that I don't play, even if they're universally loved.

 

Had figured, but was just checking, heh. Small field for them in that regard, here's hoping they don't walk the path of decline that OSI did.

[Nepenthe]

(unnecessary to quote long post)

Fair enough, I wasn't calling you out specifically of double standards, but they appear to be fairly prevalent in general.

 

The sad fact is that I enjoy Bioware even on an off day (or decade...) a lot more than I tend to like the "hottest new thing". OTOH, it's not like I can't enjoy a "christmas blockbuster" for what it is, but there's a middle ground of "gamer games" that are completely lost to me.

 

But to talk of Mass Effect rather than Bioware and their direction (or lack of it) in general, the Omega DLC is coming in a week. Somewhat interesting to see what it's like. Leviathan was really, really good on its own, but suffered from that fact that it was irrelevant in the grand scope of things. So, in a way, no matter how good these are, they'll never be like Shadow Broker (which, in addition to the other good stuff, presented the first hints of the ME3 MacGuffin) or Arrival (which wasn't that good on its own, but...)

Edited November 19, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Humanoid]

Slightly tangential, but I think XCOM is a good example of the problems that the gaming industry is up against if they want to stay in business. I still haven't found the motivation to finish off the last parts of the temple ship, because I simply don't care. It's that strange thing trying to balance gloss and packaging versus content. The cinematics are nice, but once the initial impression wears off, you are left with a very shallow game, which literally is just a small subset of the original. Games with great cinematics tends to become forgettable whereas games with great mechanics tends to become classics (IMO).

 

Tells more about today's market than the developers really, when the need for so much 'cinematics' and "risk management" is considered necessary to have a fighting chance of selling something to a wider audience.

 

The problem for me is the messed up progression curve that makes late-game stuff fairly routine. This applies both in terms of difficulty, in which your first month or two are the hardest regardless of what level you play at, and in terms of variety, in which once you've secured your position strategically (i.e. carpeted the world in satellites), the majority of maps are cordoned off and you're left with a small pool of repetitive UFO maps left for months of game-time. In short, the best way to experience new stuff in the game is to keep restarting it and playing the opening over and over.

 

To contrast, the lategame of Civilization 4 for example, kept me interested because it opened up instead of clamming up - even if inefficient, I liked engaging in global combined arms warfare with a range of options such as establishing air dominance and multi-pronged amphibious assaults that would not have been available in the early game. Late game XCOM is the reverse, it gets *less* complex as the majority of late-game enemies are mechanically simpler than what came before: most no longer bother with the cover mechanic (everything but Muton Elites really), ignore the hit calculations (psionics) and in general simply test how much firepower you can muster per turn.

 

 

 

...and yes, I've taken your slight tangent and sailed it into the Bermuda Triangle.

[NOK222]

So I did Omega, it was alright, but not worth the extra money they were charging for it.

[Orogun01]

So I did Omega, it was alright, but not worth the extra money they were charging for it.

I think the extra money was for all the romance scenes (btw I haven't played, this is just an educated guess)

[Azure79]

Do the single player DLCs add anything significant to the story? If it doesn't really change the lackluster endings, I'm not sure what the point is.

 

The only DLC I would buy is something that would totally revamp the ending sequence. Make it something like ME2, special sequences utilizing special abilities from your squadmates from ME2 and ME3, completing special mission objectives with different squadmates etc.

[Nepenthe]

Do the single player DLCs add anything significant to the story? If it doesn't really change the lackluster endings, I'm not sure what the point is.

 

The only DLC I would buy is something that would totally revamp the ending sequence. Make it something like ME2, special sequences utilizing special abilities from your squadmates from ME2 and ME3, completing special mission objectives with different squadmates etc.

Leviathan was a pretty good chunk of back story, but, no, nothing done to the endings. I agree with what you're saying there, unfortunately they've stuck their head to the sand (probably up to their ass level) and any such thing is unlikely to happen.

 

Happily, I've managed to headcanon/self-deceive "destroy" (especially re: Leviathan) into a reasonable ending, so I can live with it. But let's just say the ME, mass effect fanboy extraordinaire, hasn't bought the DLC yet.

[NOK222]

From I see, most of BSN has not been as kind to Omega as I am.

Edited November 28, 2012 by NKKKK

[Orogun01]

From I see, most of BSN has not been as kind to Omega as I am.

Poor folk have been in denial ever since the Ending debacle, its them venting at this point.

[GhostofAnakin]

The defenders on the Bio boards are trying so hard to justify the price of the Omega DLC by comparing it to things like eating out or going to the movies, instead of just using the logical comparison: other DLC.