Expansions

[Madzookeeper]

figured this was probably a really good place to put this...

 

expansion packs are always thought about at this point in development i'd imagine. because the amount of ideas and such they have for games are so many that they just won't fit within time or budget constraints. however they are in no way going to be holding back anything they've promised, and they are going to be doing as much as they can. and it will be a whole/complete/long (think the old games length as what they're aiming for, or if you want a number 60+ hours (from a feargus comment a few days ago)) game. the expansion will not be worked on at all until after the game itself is complete (also from feargus), and they are funding the expansion themselves so no kickstarter funds are going to it at all (also from feargus). they're just saying that they are going to continue working in this world regardless of if it sells well immediately, as they have to by making this promise.

 

all of that is from things in the comments, most of it from days ago. if need be i can get feargus to come in and post about this, or to give me a direct quote i can copy/paste (he offered this in the comments). so most of the concerns about this are really kinda founded on not having all of the information. really, we're getting what we want out of this. MORE of what we want, what with them funding the expansion out of their own pocket without a publisher and basically hoping that the game sells beyond the backers. it shows that they are serious about this being a continuing world. this is a good thing.

 

 

sorry i didn't get this in here sooner.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Madzookeeper

[Loranc]

When I see the word 'expansion' coming from a company like Obsidian and funded by people like us. The only thought that goes through my mind is F YEAH, not only do I get to play and beat this 'hopefully' amazing rpg, but after I'm done playing through it 3-4 times... I get to sit around in anticipation waiting for a whole new game. Now it may only be an added 15 hourish, but I'm going to hope that there will be multiple expansions or an entirely new game to come. Which makes me wonder, will they kickstart a project eternity 2?

Edited October 9, 2012 by Loranc

[Madzookeeper]

When I see the word 'expansion' coming from a company like Obsidian and funded by people like us. The only thought that goes through my mind is F YEAH, not only do I get to play and beat this 'hopefully' amazing rpg, but after I'm done playing through it 3-4 times... I get to sit around in anticipation waiting for a whole new game. Now it may only be an added 15 hourish, but I'm going to hope that there will be multiple expansions or an entirely new game to come. Which makes me wonder, will they kickstart a project eternity 2?

 

i'm pretty sure that they're hoping that PE makes enough that they won't need a kickstarter, at least that's what i've gathered from several things feargus has said. he's also said that they definitely want to make a second one as long as we'll have them, so they really do want a franchise of their own to play with. an expansion is really just the first step in that direction.

[Korron]

That's because you gave an objection, it was refuted substantively, and now you have a different objection.

 

That's how a debate works, and it'd be better to say even if we didn't make profits we'll still fund this.

 

Oh, it's fine to raise a second objection, but you'd need to accept that your first objection was not sound, not argue that nobody has been able to refute your objections.

 

Regarding your second objection, well, it's obviously nonsensical to say that they'll make an expansion even if they didn't turn a profit. Because that would imply they would either 'save' their KS $ for it, which is way more problematic, or that they will act in a financially reckless manner (by promising a product that wouldn't begin production until 2 years down the line).

 

Should they not have promised an expansion pack at all, because it is a tricky thing? That is the one objection I would tentatively agree to. I want to see them fundraise as much as possible, but I don't want them to tie themselves down with too complicated promises. Free copy of W2? Fine. Expansion pack? Not sure - I don't see a huge problem given that an expansion pack could easily be produced for half a million or less (given the original P:E budget), though.

 

Edit: Oh, and all the "u r troll" really doesn't help anyone, guys. Nobody's gonna say "You're right, I AM a troll! OH GOD" and expire in a puff of repentant smoke.

 

Thank you Tigranes, and in the future I will explicitly state that I conceded a point. My concern comes from two places: A) As people have been stating, current business practices in a similar vein to this bother me even if I feel like the devs will try to make a true expansion (it's hard to shake that feeling). B) Profits are still part of the equation for funding the expansion. The KS model has not been tested as far as profitability in a game like this. In the event that the available fan base is not much larger than those that would initially back this game, will obsidian be able to self-fund the expansion?

[Madzookeeper]

That's because you gave an objection, it was refuted substantively, and now you have a different objection.

 

That's how a debate works, and it'd be better to say even if we didn't make profits we'll still fund this.

 

Oh, it's fine to raise a second objection, but you'd need to accept that your first objection was not sound, not argue that nobody has been able to refute your objections.

 

Regarding your second objection, well, it's obviously nonsensical to say that they'll make an expansion even if they didn't turn a profit. Because that would imply they would either 'save' their KS $ for it, which is way more problematic, or that they will act in a financially reckless manner (by promising a product that wouldn't begin production until 2 years down the line).

 

Should they not have promised an expansion pack at all, because it is a tricky thing? That is the one objection I would tentatively agree to. I want to see them fundraise as much as possible, but I don't want them to tie themselves down with too complicated promises. Free copy of W2? Fine. Expansion pack? Not sure - I don't see a huge problem given that an expansion pack could easily be produced for half a million or less (given the original P:E budget), though.

 

Edit: Oh, and all the "u r troll" really doesn't help anyone, guys. Nobody's gonna say "You're right, I AM a troll! OH GOD" and expire in a puff of repentant smoke.

 

Thank you Tigranes, and in the future I will explicitly state that I conceded a point. My concern comes from two places: A) As people have been stating, current business practices in a similar vein to this bother me even if I feel like the devs will try to make a true expansion (it's hard to shake that feeling). B) Profits are still part of the equation for funding the expansion. The KS model has not been tested as far as profitability in a game like this. In the event that the available fan base is not much larger than those that would initially back this game, will obsidian be able to self-fund the expansion?

 

i actually posted something that answers where the money is coming from for the expansion up there *points*. but the short of it is this: feargus specifically said in the kickstarter comments that obsidian was going to fund the expansion themselves.

[crazyrabbits]

I, too, am happy that it's an expansion. Insofar as content I'd like to see:

 

1) One or two new towns/cities, with new items/spells. BGI had Ulgoth's Beard, BG2 had Saradush/Amkethran...those are the two that always stand out in my mind.

 

2) Maybe a couple dungeons, one smaller (one-two floors) and another mega-dungeon (5-6 floors).

 

3) One or two new companions, preferably with a marginal power increase (something like the upgraded ED-E in FNV: Lonesome Road or God/Dog in Dead Money). Give them a great story and another branching questline, and you'd surely win a lot of people over.

 

4) Wishful thinking, but have a 5-10 hour minicampaign that branches multiple locations and has a self-contained storyline. Less Tales of the Sword Coast, more Lonesome Road/Throne of Bhaal.

 

In Obsidian I trust.

[Madzookeeper]

anyone wanting a direct quote about where the funding for the expansion is coming from (from the kickstarter comments):

 

@Bootsy 81 We are going to fund it ourselves and from the sales we get from project eternity when it comes available- not from the Kickstater funds. I don't think we will do a Kickstater just for it, I'd rather see about funding the sequel that way - if you guys will still have us.

 

 

 

EDIT

 

making it easier to read.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Madzookeeper

[Madzookeeper]

I, too, am happy that it's an expansion. Insofar as content I'd like to see:

 

1) One or two new towns/cities, with new items/spells. BGI had Ulgoth's Beard, BG2 had Saradush/Amkethran...those are the two that always stand out in my mind.

 

2) Maybe a couple dungeons, one smaller (one-two floors) and another mega-dungeon (5-6 floors).

 

3) One or two new companions, preferably with a marginal power increase (something like the upgraded ED-E in FNV: Lonesome Road or God/Dog in Dead Money). Give them a great story and another branching questline, and you'd surely win a lot of people over.

 

4) Wishful thinking, but have a 5-10 hour minicampaign that branches multiple locations and has a self-contained storyline. Less Tales of the Sword Coast, more Lonesome Road/Throne of Bhaal.

 

In Obsidian I trust.

 

i'm pretty sure they're talking about something more substantial than that actually. if i'm remembering right, feargus mentioned 20ish hours for an expansion was what they'd like, or something like that. don't hold me to that, but i do know they want a substantial expansion, more along the lines of MOTB than something smaller.

[Umberlin]

I find it a little odd that people wouldn't want more content down the line. Especially given their assurance that the money we're donating now is for the main game, not for any future expansions. In fact, if I understood them right, the money that will go toward expansions will be money they make from sales of the game we're funding now. Regardless I have a hard time finding any issue with the idea of oldschool, content packed, and legitimate expansions. That's a good thing. If they were hopping up and down going, "We're going to use the money you're donating to make and sell you horse armor down the line" . . . I could see the problem, but they aren't doing that.

[AGX-17]

The new announcement talked about PE expansions, which I have mixed feelings about. I am very happy it is an expansion and NOT some silly DLC. However I do have some fears.

 

Fears

- The main game will be short. I want them to release a LONG game like the old games were, I really do not want a short game like todays games. If they are planning for sequels, they may want to feel the need to shorten the main game to hurry up and start on its expansion.

 

The game is tentatively slated for a 2014 release. Given the fact that they're licensing a ready-made engine, that allows for more than a year of dev time without many worries about technology (I doubt they're aiming for a January 1st release date.)

Edited October 9, 2012 by AGX-17

[Madzookeeper]

I find it a little odd that people wouldn't want more content down the line. Especially given their assurance that the money we're donating now is for the main game, not for any future expansions. In fact, if I understood them right, the money that will go toward expansions will be money they make from sales of the game we're funding now. Regardless I have a hard time finding any issue with the idea of oldschool, content packed, and legitimate expansions. That's a good thing. If they were hopping up and down going, "We're going to use the money you're donating to make and sell you horse armor down the line" . . . I could see the problem, but they aren't doing that.

 

they're actually funding it themselves, per feargus comments. and then they'll use the PE profits to help with it.

 

 

The new announcement talked about PE expansions, which I have mixed feelings about. I am very happy it is an expansion and NOT some silly DLC. However I do have some fears.

 

Fears

- The main game will be short. I want them to release a LONG game like the old games were, I really do not want a short game like todays games. If they are planning for sequels, they may want to feel the need to shorten the main game to hurry up and start on its expansion.

 

The game is tentatively slated for a 2014 release. Given the fact that they're licensing a ready-made engine, that allows for more than a year of dev time without many worries about technology (I doubt they're aiming for a January 1st release date.)

 

feargus said they were aiming at the old school length, think 60+ hours.

[ogrezilla]

The Internet - a place where good news is immediately bad. An XP shows commitment to the setting and the potential for future releases. Which means more cool games.

 

Srsly, what's not to like about this news?

everyone is so negative anymore. i don't see the point in thinking like that.

[Shadowless]

I don't see why people are afraid about hearing of an expansion already. The problem with creating your own IP is you have to create everything from scratch (granted with some stealing of ideas from other projects) which takes quite a bit of time. They do not start out with basic mechanics, spells, world and race history etc. All of that has to be new and will take quite awhile to develop fully and an expansion pack that is already planned tells me they are being honest with us that they will probably not be able to make it as epic (playtime) like BG2 but that is something a well done expansion can do nicely. I personally am overjoyed to here about these plans. With the lack of voice acting and other nonsense things 6 months after release is plenty of time to add a truly large amount of content to a game like this and will expand upon the world immensely. Also planning for it now will allow them to create ideas for it now that won't be implemented into the base game but will be very thought out by the time the expansion comes.

[Volourn]

"feargus said they were aiming at the old school length, think 60+ hours. "

 

What old school RPG expansion was 60+ hours? None of I've played. the longest was TOB which was 30-40 hours.

[Umberlin]

I find it a little odd that people wouldn't want more content down the line. Especially given their assurance that the money we're donating now is for the main game, not for any future expansions. In fact, if I understood them right, the money that will go toward expansions will be money they make from sales of the game we're funding now. Regardless I have a hard time finding any issue with the idea of oldschool, content packed, and legitimate expansions. That's a good thing. If they were hopping up and down going, "We're going to use the money you're donating to make and sell you horse armor down the line" . . . I could see the problem, but they aren't doing that.

 

they're actually funding it themselves, per feargus comments. and then they'll use the PE profits to help with it.

 

Yes.

[GhostofAnakin]

I really don't think the announcement about the expansion will affect the quality (or quantity in terms of game length) of the core game. I take it as a good thing, because it suggests that Obsidian is not only committed to Project Eternity, but to future games/expansions after it.

[Madzookeeper]

"feargus said they were aiming at the old school length, think 60+ hours. "

 

What old school RPG expansion was 60+ hours? None of I've played. the longest was TOB which was 30-40 hours.

 

i meant that the base game was going to be that long, not the expansion. was basically saying that they aren't cutting things out of the base game to put them in the expansion so we wouldn't get a full game experience. we're definitely getting that.

[Monte Carlo]

It's a favourite theme of mine, but the issue is threefold:

 

1. A culture of expectation and entitlement: People are used to getting stuff for free. It's the MOAR culture. The internet has made the distribution of Free Stuff completely normal. For example, look at the posts concerning top tier content: "I don't mind it if I get it free at a later point in time."

 

2. A culture of greedy publishers: This might seem contradictory, but it isn't. For every free-to-play or $1.00 app there's an EA / Bioware style day-one DLC culture too. So customers and producers are in this stand-off.

 

3. A level of ignorance unawareness of the production process: I am certain that the internet is full of people who think that every night the Content Fairy visits MCA and leaves a fresh, fully-realised NPC under his pillow. Writing dialogue is graft. Making content is graft. It costs money and if you want quality you have to pay for it (see point 1).

 

Add to this the whiny, over-entitled culture of the internet, it's tendency to encourage groupthink, and you have a perfect storm of misunderstanding.

[IndiraLightfoot]

To me Obsidian's news of an expansion in the works says one thing: Devotion. And we need to have a little faith in them.

[Volourn]

"i meant that the base game was going to be that long, not the expansion. was basically saying that they aren't cutting things out of the base game to put them in the expansion so we wouldn't get a full game experience. we're definitely getting that. "

 

Oh. But, this is the expansion thrad. I ASSumed. My bad.

 

Anyways, modern vs ancient. *shrug* Plenty of modern games are 40+ hours. Plenty of old games are really realy short. It shouldn't be an old vs new thing.

[Madzookeeper]

"i meant that the base game was going to be that long, not the expansion. was basically saying that they aren't cutting things out of the base game to put them in the expansion so we wouldn't get a full game experience. we're definitely getting that. "

 

Oh. But, this is the expansion thrad. I ASSumed. My bad.

 

Anyways, modern vs ancient. *shrug* Plenty of modern games are 40+ hours. Plenty of old games are really realy short. It shouldn't be an old vs new thing.

 

i'll give you that, but that's just what the example that i was given from feargus. so i figured keep it as close to what he said as i could.

[DocDoomII]

From the expansion I expect no less than a new area, faction, plot, classes and companion(s). Yay!

 

(I know I'm a bit too enthusiast)

[Gecimen]

While I understand the OP, there's a huge difference here, P:E is a fan funded game which should remove all deadline restrictions that causes cut contents.

[ImRhoven]

I'm pretty sure Throne of Bhaal was planned during the concept stages of Baldur's Gate 2.

 

That's all that needs to be said on this topic imo.

[Volourn]

Most initial expansions are. In TOB's case it was actually supposed to be BG3 but Interplay cried and pushed BIO into making it the expansion.