Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Anything like Durlag's Tower will do me. Full of traps that actually make you afraid to search the next room for fear of chunky death.

 

See, that's what I HATED about Durlag's. I never got any further than the 2nd dungeon level because all the "walk into each room one step at a time and wait for the red outline to appear" makes those maps so incredibly tedious.

 

Making the player nervous is fine. Making the player bored is unforgiveable. The traps in Durlag's did the latter.

 

For you, yes, and other players loved that sort of thing in DT too. There were very distinct differences between the implementation of Durlag's Tower and Watcher's Keep:

 

DT:

  1. Multiple external quest hooks to send players to the dungeon
  2. Cohesive backstory with consistent application across levels, requiring memory of narrative information
  3. Enemy attacks were monster-in-wait but also tightly integrated with the actual storytelling element
  4. Access puzzles and riddles (well, not exactly riddles I guess, more like quizzes, and related to the narrative)
  5. Soooo many traps. And puzzle traps.
  6. The boss... was related to the dungeon in a different way.
  7. The narrative actually related to the main storyline of BG1. Optional, but added quite a bit of flavor for me.

 

WK:

  1. No external hooks to the dungeon
  2. Backstory is relevant only at the beginning, a couple parts in the middle (e.g. the elf), and the end
  3. Enemy attacks were more varied and tactical than DT's but didn't have much to do with the narrative--i.e. enemies were just stuck there.
  4. Not many puzzles, but the few were interesting, a few very interesting riddles, but totally unrelated to narrative.
  5. Some traps. Definitely not as many as DT's.
  6. Pretty normal boss in the narrative sense.
  7. The narrative was very tangentially related to the BG2 storyline--"Everyone is out to get you!"

 

Personally, I much prefer DT's implementation, maybe with more puzzle traps instead of thief/rogue traps, and with more tactical variety in the way of WK.

  • Like 1

The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book.

Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most?

PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE.

"But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger)

"Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have only one very general suggestion that deeper you go more organic it looks. So upper levels look man made and lower levels are more "cavey".

 

I like this idea. Organic is cool. Im tired of dusty dry tombs. I kinda imagine some old ruins, tunnels where "something" outworldly has nested in the deepest levels spreding its influence/minions through the dungeonsystem, maybe even affecting the upper world, making it a reason for a brave team of adventurers heading deep down into the unknown facing untold horrors.

 

It would be cool with organic materials Imprinting on the old structures already there. So you can get get both mechanical and organic traps. Totally wrong genre, but something like the aliens movie where the queen has set up a hive in the pressure plant making it more organic the further into it you go.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread practically has me drooling.

 

When I think of mega-dungeons, what I always come back to is a city that was built on top of a ruin, so some of the old architecture is still there, but the party would at some point venture down into the bowels of the old ruins. They'd be mostly flooded, of course -- maybe there's a lake in the newer city or on the edges of it -- so the ancient stone walls are slick and shining. And, naturally, the deepest levels are completely submerged in some areas. Pit traps, fake rooms that close off and fill with water, marble statues that become animated and attack the characters. Giant spiders are a given. So are monstrous plants and glowing fungi. Wading through slanted hallways and dropping down through the windows of fallen buildings. Wading through knee-deep water with white, slippery things brushing against your ankles. Probably with their teeth.

Or a tomb built in levels would do, crafted by an ancient warlord to house his remains after he died, much like the barbarian king from the first Icewind Dale. Nothing says "fun" like reawakening ancient evils or walking through a room filled top to bottom with rows and rows of coffins along the wall where some mass ritual took place. And all the coffins would have to open up at some point. Obviously.

I'm in love with the idea of realistic illusions as well. Maybe at some point the player triggers something and is suddenly walking through the ruins/crypt/cave-thing and is suddenly able to see it in its former glory -- perhaps even with its inhabitants there. Glorious ballrooms where hundreds died -- for some reason or another, like an awesome spell-gone-wrong, or ghouls that crawled up from the underground. Or all the recent inhabitants were cursed and now they are the ghouls.

The possibilities are just endless.

But I demand large, story-based and lore-packed dungeons filled with haunting music and eerie lighting. Or no lighting at all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, my own personal mega-dungeon was pretty vanilla (looking back on it) but it went something like this:

 

History

 

The dungeon's (apparently) deepest level was natural caves. These were unearthed accidentally by an ancient civilization who built tombs above them for their royalty. The story of that royalty is tragic and had lots of plot hooks for the adventurers to solve a long-standing historical dispute in the city (inspired by the alleged murders of the two princes by agents of Richard III at the Tower of London).

 

Later on, these tombs were excavated further by an evil cult that was itself extinguished by goodie-goodie adventurers. The adventurers built a whole level to keep watch on the cult levels, until they were satisfied that the evil was finally gone. Then they left. (levels 1-6 therefore were tombs, cult HQ and the newer barracks of the dudes watching the rest of the dungeon).

 

Then an evil wizard, on the run, happened upon the ruins and caves. He made a pact with the semi-sentient presence of the evil demon-god that the original cult worshipped and expanded the dungeon as a hideout, well below the caves. He invited a load of monsters, including a tribe of minotaurs, to come and join the fun. The minotaurs feasted on prisoners of the wizard. He finally became a lich, but was gobbled up by the demon god who disappeared back to hell.

 

Anyhow, the lich excavations abutted a neighbouring maze occupied by evil, utterly insane dwarves. They had their own maze going on, mining a very valuable ore that was essentially radioactive and led to lots of mutated creatures. The mutated dwarf king, a powerful sorcerer-scientist, was the main bad guy, living down on level 15.

 

So in essence we had the mystery of the ancient tombs, the cult, crazy wizard / lich, minotaurs, demon, abandoned barracks and mutant dwarf complex. There was other stuff going on, but that was the nub of it.

 

All of the factions interacted, the players once even sided with the dwarves (temporarily) to quell resurgent interest in the cult ruins by new worshippers. In other news, the lich was dead but evil adventurers were after his phylactery. There was a portal where you could do business with the original demon-god's avatar. Yadda yadda.

 

All I'm saying is that a story / theme is essential for a fun megadungeon.

sonsofgygax.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites

When it comes to mega dungeon what I would like to see is I think something that works like this.

Every level of the dungeon is independent of other but have some ties to the over all story for the dungeon to show case it , I mean somethin like this

level 1 city, that lives near entrece to some forgotten ruins of the haunted civilization they are attack by bunch of weird monsters from the ruins you help them and go deeper

level 2 archeological excavation that have finded some mystical mc guffin

level 3 a monster camp were you learn that monsters arent doing it because they want to

level 4 mastermind lair.

Basicly after compliting one lever you complyt it story and if you are willing you can go deeper to learn more

Link to post
Share on other sites

All of the factions interacted, the players once even sided with the dwarves (temporarily) to quell resurgent interest in the cult ruins by new worshippers. In other news, the lich was dead but evil adventurers were after his phylactery. There was a portal where you could do business with the original demon-god's avatar. Yadda yadda.

 

All I'm saying is that a story / theme is essential for a fun megadungeon.

 

One other thing occurred to me concerning DT vs. pretty much all other dungeons---there was no simple good/evil in the backstory narrative, and I think of historical events that are tragic due to inevitability. It was quite layered, that is. That's quite something to pull off for a typical dungeon with bosses, I think...

The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book.

Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most?

PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE.

"But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger)

"Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anything like Durlag's Tower will do me. Full of traps that actually make you afraid to search the next room for fear of chunky death.

 

See, that's what I HATED about Durlag's. I never got any further than the 2nd dungeon level because all the "walk into each room one step at a time and wait for the red outline to appear" makes those maps so incredibly tedious.

 

Making the player nervous is fine. Making the player bored is unforgiveable. The traps in Durlag's did the latter.

 

I agree partly with this. It would be preferable if the mega-dungeon was treated as an eco-system of its' own, rather than purely a monster lair. It doesn't quite make sense for every area to be littered with booby traps and monsters. After all, why would the inhabitants of these places put these traps all over the place? Any careless moves by the inhabitants of the dungeon would cause them to hurt themselves or their allies.

 

It would be better if these so called dangerous areas were placed in strategic areas. For instance, at the entrance of each main areas or narrow chokepoints guarded by sentries. This would minimize the annoyance factor.

 

But Durlag's Tower had excellent lore reasons to have so many traps. Durlag's story of paranoia, loss and suffering would not have any resonance if his tower was just a series of monsters to kill, or series of expositions to read. It's not the stupid cutscene with the Death Knight killing the annoying tourists that sets the scene. It's when you go into level 2 for the first time, walk down the corridors as normal, and then have half the party zapped and blasted to death. The dangerous, nervous navigation around the labyrinthine dungeons, even as all the traps expend your potions and consumables, corresponds to the nervous wreck Durlag himself was reduced to as he resorted to ever more paranoid means to try and 'protect' his clan. The traps, of course, are only ever a big deal in levels 2 and 3, as for variety's sake you get the elemental rooms, the chess battle and other novelties in 4 & 5.

 

That's what sets it apart from the Watcher's Keep, which was a good dungeon in its own right, but the middle levels were mostly just puzzles - I didn't feel like I was delving deeper into a dangerous dungeon like I did with Durlag's Tower, I felt like I was just on an adventuring romp solving fun puzzle games. Now, could you find better ways of doing what Durlag's Tower did than loading 2 floors full of traps? Perhaps - and that's fine with me.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to see a dungeon that is self-sustaining. A "normal" dungeon or underdark should have an input of energy and an output of waste. Something must exist to maintain an active the dungeon or at some point it will all collapse on itself at the next earthquake. How does it get rid of fallen debris and prop up the structures? Maybe there's a vicious race of mole-humanoids that hate the light and are constantly working to build a vast network of robust tunnels and mine the world for its resources?

 

A mega-dungeon of undead that exists just to consume living organisms would soon run out of targets. Would the undead then just stand around performing repetitive tasks? Some of them would need to be working to maintain the structure, which would imply at least motivation and some intelligence. Are the undead just types of worker bees that know just what to do, or is there a central controller that performs planning. Perpetually doomed to an underground existence, maybe this intelligence seeks to lure in fresh bodies to increase its army of corpses? Maybe it knows a way to transform the surface into a form where the sun is permanently hidden. A realm of utter darkness... bwahahaha... :devil:

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Challenging the deeper you go. This doesn't just mean having plenty of hard combat encounters. Ideally, the "get through situations in a variety of ways" will still apply here but yeah, it gets harder and harder the deeper you go.

 

2) Interesting lore to uncover/story of its own. Would love if you could possibly uncover interesting secrets of the world... Which brings me to:

 

3) Non-linearity within the dungeon itself. Yes, you could possibly uncover interesting secrets about the world. But it's not guaranteed if you don't explore thoroughly enough. It will hopefully not be a linear "beat this dungeon" experience. Make the dungeon a complex setpiece of its own.

 

4) Heavy atmosphere. The Dead God's Vault in MotB was short all in all but the atmosphere there was *fantastic*. It *felt* like a dangerous place to venture into. Not talking about the actual mechanics of the dungeon here, but just purely in the audio-visual sense. It felt oppressive.

Listen to my home-made recordings (some original songs, some not): http://www.youtube.c...low=grid&view=0

Link to post
Share on other sites

I want a fey labyrinth that's basically a forest that moves around you as you wander through it. So paths close behind you, and new ones open up in another direction, and so on. And there's all kinds of ****ed-up fey-warped monstrosities wandering through it you have to fight. Oh, and at the center there's some kind of minotaur-style myth beast that tries to eat you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I want a fey labyrinth that's basically a forest that moves around you as you wander through it. So paths close behind you, and new ones open up in another direction, and so on. And there's all kinds of ****ed-up fey-warped monstrosities wandering through it you have to fight. Oh, and at the center there's some kind of minotaur-style myth beast that tries to eat you.

 

You need IWD2. Srsly.

  • Like 1

sonsofgygax.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites

Durlag's Tower is definitely the best dungeon I've ever played.

 

I did REALLY enjoy the environment of The Vale of Shadows and Dragon's Eye Cave in Icewind Dale 1 as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anything like Durlag's Tower will do me. Full of traps that actually make you afraid to search the next room for fear of chunky death.

 

See, that's what I HATED about Durlag's. I never got any further than the 2nd dungeon level because all the "walk into each room one step at a time and wait for the red outline to appear" makes those maps so incredibly tedious.

 

Making the player nervous is fine. Making the player bored is unforgiveable. The traps in Durlag's did the latter.

 

I agree partly with this. It would be preferable if the mega-dungeon was treated as an eco-system of its' own, rather than purely a monster lair. It doesn't quite make sense for every area to be littered with booby traps and monsters. After all, why would the inhabitants of these places put these traps all over the place? Any careless moves by the inhabitants of the dungeon would cause them to hurt themselves or their allies.

 

It would be better if these so called dangerous areas were placed in strategic areas. For instance, at the entrance of each main areas or narrow chokepoints guarded by sentries. This would minimize the annoyance factor.

 

But Durlag's Tower had excellent lore reasons to have so many traps. Durlag's story of paranoia, loss and suffering would not have any resonance if his tower was just a series of monsters to kill, or series of expositions to read. It's not the stupid cutscene with the Death Knight killing the annoying tourists that sets the scene. It's when you go into level 2 for the first time, walk down the corridors as normal, and then have half the party zapped and blasted to death. The dangerous, nervous navigation around the labyrinthine dungeons, even as all the traps expend your potions and consumables, corresponds to the nervous wreck Durlag himself was reduced to as he resorted to ever more paranoid means to try and 'protect' his clan. The traps, of course, are only ever a big deal in levels 2 and 3, as for variety's sake you get the elemental rooms, the chess battle and other novelties in 4 & 5.

 

That's what sets it apart from the Watcher's Keep, which was a good dungeon in its own right, but the middle levels were mostly just puzzles - I didn't feel like I was delving deeper into a dangerous dungeon like I did with Durlag's Tower, I felt like I was just on an adventuring romp solving fun puzzle games. Now, could you find better ways of doing what Durlag's Tower did than loading 2 floors full of traps? Perhaps - and that's fine with me.

 

Well, thanks for correcting me :blush: I must confess that I never got to complete all of BG1 and reach Durlag's Tower. I started with BG2 and TOB and tried to go back to BG1. As long as the traps in the mega-dungeon makes sense, I'm allright with it. Still, so long as its' two floors and not used extensively, I'm ok with it. It would be good if the game gives adequate warning on this by either the quest giver, rumors or seeing large piles of bones of dead adventurers littered liberally in these floors.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Most people identify with what they played first.

 

Baldur's Gate was very unforgiving traps wise, traps covered the whole path across where you had to go. Icewind Dale made it so that it wasn't the case, only certain stones etc were trapped (but they were still just as deadly).

 

Once you realized that probably everything in Durlag's Tower was trapped, all you had to do was grab your rogue and just walk around with Find Traps on.

 

I found that a lot more tactically satisfying than running around in Watcher's Keep, herp derp another Demon, right click and win.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I find this topic much easier to comment on when the focus question is: What do you not want to see in this mega dungeon. But I'll do both. So here goes.

 

1) Random Themes. Let me explain. I didn't really like Watcher's Keep that much. It was fun, in that munchkin kind of way, but overall it was rather poorly designed as far as Mega dungeons go. It lacked that special *something* that made Durlag's tower so great. WK was a revolving door of themes that nether mixed well with each other, nor make sense on their own. Top level was about Undead and....petrified enemy things that came to life. Second level was about Fire giants, Slimes, wind, electricity, mages and a Demon. Third level was a Githyanki vs. Mindflayer war, 4th level was Demons vs. Devils, 5th level was... nothing. it had no theme, it was just a "character test level" that didn't really make sense from the main narrative's perspective. And of course, the last level was just the boss. I'm not a fan of this design, if you can even call it that. If a dungeon is going to shift themes every level, it should be logical within greater narrative of the story... and it should be a gradual shift, not sudden wild, almost random theme changes, like we saw in Watcher's Keep.

 

2) Arcade game crap. Anyone here remember the Battle Squares mini-game in IWD2's ice temple? Yeah... No. Lets not have anything like that again....ever.

 

3) 1 million & 1 keys. Even Durlag's tower lost points for this. You're 3 levels down and at least one of your characters is basically forced to *disable* use of his inventory because it's filled to capacity with all the keys, journals, wardstones etc. that the dungeon "requires" you to have if you wish to advance. This is unnecessary for a decent dungeon-crawling experience, and while I actually enjoy a good inventory management mini-game in my RPGs, I dislike those occasions when the mini-game turns into the main struggle of the dungeon. Devs need to be mindful of this.

 

 

NOW.... Stuff I do want to see.

 

1) Various degrees of lighting. Some levels should be really dark, others shouldn't. But both should have a story-based explanantion for why they are what they are. Oh, and it should make sense. A level filled with subterrianian lifeforms who don't have eyes, should never contain lamps and torches embedded in the walls (for example), should it.

 

2) Mood Mood Mood! Very few dungeons get this right, and even fewer maintain it after they do. The very ground, ceiling, walls, doors and music should do as much to project the feeling of danger and death as the traps and monsters themselves.

 

3) Do puzzles/obstacles, but don't overdo them. 1 per level is a good rule of thumb

Edited by Stun
  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it might not grow more than a few levels, so I am tempted to leave it in the hands of Obsidian without any comment.

 

However I do believe that the dungeon should be expandable and imply just as much, so that later Obsidian DLC and Expansions can provide substantial increases to that dungeon (which should prove popular).

  • Like 1

"This is what most people do not understand about Colbert and Silverman. They only mock fictional celebrities, celebrities who destroy their selfhood to unify with the wants of the people, celebrities who are transfixed by the evil hungers of the public. Feed us a Gomorrah built up of luminous dreams, we beg. Here it is, they say, and it looks like your steaming brains."

 

" If you've read Hart's Hope, Neveryona, Infinity Concerto, Tales of the Flat Earth, you've pretty much played Dragon Age."

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to see the dungeons architecture a bit strange when compared to the nearby areas, and deep down in the dungeon, the reason as to why it is different can be found. For example, the above ground level has vague hints of a different culture, and the differences increase as the dungeon goes deeper. And at the "bottom" there could be an ancient city featuring this strange culture thorough it.

 

And I'd like to see one level that is more or less labyrinth like, and it contains one wandering, high difficulty monstrosity. And avoiding it could bring as much XP as killing it.

 

Well puzzles and riddles would be great, if not essential.

 

Hard end boss is a must IMO. Also the more there is to find out about it/him/her the better.

 

Also I would like if the story brought the player to the dungeon, but only keep very little dungeon dwelling as essential to the story. Then amongst the story quest there could be things like notes or engravings or such to whet the players appetite to explore further.

Dude, I can see my own soul.....

Link to post
Share on other sites

In Torchlight the Infinite Dungeons become boring after a while

 

All you do is hack and slash your way through.

 

I fear this Mega Dungeon will offer nothing more than a hack and slash fest through its levels

Link to post
Share on other sites

In Torchlight the Infinite Dungeons become boring after a while

 

All you do is hack and slash your way through.

 

I fear this Mega Dungeon will offer nothing more than a hack and slash fest through its levels

 

Have you played Durlag's Tower in BG1? It doesn't have to be like Torchlight or Diablo.

sonsofgygax.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope it will be some kind of temple/dungeon of cultists who revere a long gone and forgotten god and we must try to stop them to revive him.

Something classic like that.

Edited by DocDoomII
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it might not grow more than a few levels, so I am tempted to leave it in the hands of Obsidian without any comment.

 

However I do believe that the dungeon should be expandable and imply just as much, so that later Obsidian DLC and Expansions can provide substantial increases to that dungeon (which should prove popular).

 

If there's post-ship expansion on the dungeon, I really hope would fit well with the narrative--but an overarching narrative like WK is boring to me compared to the more granular narrative of DT, and expanding DT would not have made sense. Which means I'd rather not have dungeon expansion if it'll be closer to DT than WK, and I want a DT... :p

 

"Loot" and "because it's there" have always been sufficient reasons to enter and complete any Dungeon.

 

It's the only purpose for MMO dungeons, that's for sure. But in an SP game especially, for me, I really want a good story hook to go through as well, and a mystery to unravel inside. (Please, no cults, those are done to death...)

The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book.

Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most?

PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE.

"But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger)

"Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)

Link to post
Share on other sites

"Loot" and "because it's there" have always been sufficient reasons to enter and complete any Dungeon.

 

That's basically the entire motivation of an adventuring party for any given quest.

It's why we break into the houses of hapless villagers and steal everything that's not nailed down.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...