Companion loyalty system?

[lordgizka]

Well, basically, almost all Obsidian games KOTOR2 onward had a companion loyalty system, along with "loyalty increased/decreased by ..." messages. An yet, say, Torment's companions had morale, which was hidden. It can be argued that the first approach breaks immersion consistently, since for at least a lot of players the "decreased" message is basically a signal to reload the conversation.

[molarBear]

wow, pst had hidden morale options for companions? didnt know that.

[Ieo]

For something as complex as companion content that requires 'systemic memory', there must be a way to track it---but I want it to be black box. Visible point systems break immersion completely for me, and I could never, ever forgive DA:O for that.

[Gorth]

Well, basically, almost all Obsidian games KOTOR2 onward had a companion loyalty system, along with "loyalty increased/decreased by ..." messages. An yet, say, Torment's companions had morale, which was hidden. It can be argued that the first approach breaks immersion consistently, since for at least a lot of players the "decreased" message is basically a signal to reload the conversation.

Yeah, browsing through PS:T's data files with NearInfinity was almost educational. Both in how your own alignment changed (seriously, is teasing Morte really a chaotic act???), and how you had to break down your companions "barriers" (wasn't that variable called fortress_something?), to get them to improve their stats and abilities. By all means, get rid of the obvious messages and numbers, but some kind of feedback would be nice and not completely unrealistic. Depending on circumstance, feedback on whether people approve or disapprove of your actions can be non-existant, subtle, obvious or rather physical (from a punch to a kiss). Get rid of the numbers though, show - don't tell.

 

[generic.hybridity]

Yeah, making things less obvious and more arcane makes characters seem more realistic. Rather than meters that gauge their affection why not have them simply be nicer or smile or hug! If they hate you hten they can do similarly.

[Jarmo]

No. Or maybe yes, but no.

Not the way it's usually done, what you say to this and that and giving them a box of jellybeans.

 

I'd think the fact that you just took out the Evil Lich of Gran Munchkin to be more important! By far.

"Sheet, you crazy man, we could have died out there, we should have died! I'm out!"

"Today we have struck a fine blow for the powers of good, by my honor, I will never abandon thee!"

 

But even if you go by what your party does, if that has an impact on their morale, you should be able

to smooth out the blow if you have charisma and talking skills. "such a handsome guy will never die, besides, think of the loot"

 

And you should be able to talk about the same things again.

No sudden death situations where unless you pick the third choice out of five, it's the end for that story branch.

[Zero]

I'd prefer something that didn't encourage me to act like a sociopath with an ever changing personality that played everyone like a fiddle.

 

 

(In other words "yeah I'd like a hidden system").

[Pangur]

Yes, but hidden. For me it makes companions more alive and makes me care for them, when I know that my words and actions 'mean' something for them.

Definitely numbers should be hidden so that players wouldn't be tempted to max it out as soon as possible.

[Dermi]

Also voted for hidden checks. That way it makes it hard to metagame companions into having them highly influenced. It gets more difficult to do that when I don't see numerical effect my response or action had on given companion.

[Tychoxi]

hidden please! I wouldn't mind an option to toggle the messages on/off, but I really hate when you say/do something and the game tells you "Influence Lost with Crappycompanion" or worse "10 Influence points Lost with SillyHarlot". The cues regarding their dis/approval should go according by your char's perception, your prior knowledge of your companion's backstory/motivations/loyalties and their possible comments/actions after the fact, not by a popup! And yes, a popup undoes the good of having your companions comment/act on your actions.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Tychoxi

[smithereen]

No. Or maybe yes, but no.

Not the way it's usually done, what you say to this and that and giving them a box of jellybeans.

 

I'd think the fact that you just took out the Evil Lich of Gran Munchkin to be more important! By far.

"Sheet, you crazy man, we could have died out there, we should have died! I'm out!"

"Today we have struck a fine blow for the powers of good, by my honor, I will never abandon thee!"

 

But even if you go by what your party does, if that has an impact on their morale, you should be able

to smooth out the blow if you have charisma and talking skills. "such a handsome guy will never die, besides, think of the loot"

 

And you should be able to talk about the same things again.

No sudden death situations where unless you pick the third choice out of five, it's the end for that story branch.

 

Absolutely. I've been campaigning for companions to notice when they almost die for years now.

[Dem]

Well, basically, almost all Obsidian games KOTOR2 onward had a companion loyalty system, along with "loyalty increased/decreased by ..." messages. An yet, say, Torment's companions had morale, which was hidden. It can be argued that the first approach breaks immersion consistently, since for at least a lot of players the "decreased" message is basically a signal to reload the conversation.

Yeah, browsing through PS:T's data files with NearInfinity was almost educational. Both in how your own alignment changed (seriously, is teasing Morte really a chaotic act???), and how you had to break down your companions "barriers" (wasn't that variable called fortress_something?), to get them to improve their stats and abilities. By all means, get rid of the obvious messages and numbers, but some kind of feedback would be nice and not completely unrealistic. Depending on circumstance, feedback on whether people approve or disapprove of your actions can be non-existant, subtle, obvious or rather physical (from a punch to a kiss). Get rid of the numbers though, show - don't tell.

 

Wow! You, sir, read my mind. Are you wizard?

 

No, but seriously, this.

[Lucas]

Don't tell us through numbers (or "system messages" like "companion influence increased"), but show us throughout dialogue and actions(and reactions) that make sense, so that we can interpret our companion feelings.

[lordgizka]

It's weird how almost everyone wants the loyalty system to be hidden, and yet Obsidian has been doing the opposite in almost every title. Probably influenced the likes of DA:O too, although those loyalty scales were even worse.

[Jozape]

It's weird how almost everyone wants the loyalty system to be hidden, and yet Obsidian has been doing the opposite in almost every title. Probably influenced the likes of DA:O too, although those loyalty scales were even worse.

 

I guess the idea is for a cheap way to let the player know that there actions had consequences, and to have more transparency in the systems. Which is nice. The more serious role-players will ignore the warnings and accept what their character did or said, and the newbie will realize that the RPG isn't always sunshine and daisies if they don't play their cards correctly. But since we're not getting a fully voiced cinematic RPG, a more character expressive method should be much more viable for Obsidian to provide now.

[Aedelric]

I do not want every companion to be my best friend for life from the moment I meet them. The games I enjoyed the most are the ones where I had to earn their trust, where later in the game I was rewarded due to their loyalty.

 

I would also say having meters, scales or numerical values denoting how loyal people are is immersion breaking, it is better to not quite know.

[Tale]

No.

 

Loyalty strikes me as one of those "only one right answer" systems. And I don't really like that. I don't like it when it's explicit, encouraging a reload, and I don't like it when it's hidden, springing up out of nowhere hours in when it's too late for the player to do anything.

 

Just because a character doesn't like the PC doesn't mean he can't be useful to the PC. It's just that his use should change. Like if you're eating babies, the Paladin on the team gets incredibly angry, forsakes his duty just to try to stop you, and this all triggers a quest that replaces his regular character arc, and ends with him changing into a Blackguard. Old door closed (Paladin), new door opened (Blackguard).

 

Or you're against stealing, but this doesn't go over well with the party thief. Maybe the party thief could adjust to being more damage oriented. Or she do ends up leaving the party, but she starts up a ring of informants that feeds you quest leads.

[Barter System FTW]

If t'were hidden and the player had noticable warnings prior to any NPC event happening then I would be ok with it, maybe. I do not want a loyalty system that

 

1) Has me min-maxing and reloading to keep my companions around.

2) Punishes me out of nowhere for my Quest/NPC decisions without telling me in advance somehow.

3) Has me running annoying errands and playing psychiatrist for emotionally retarded companions.

[Starglider]

Voted 'yes, invisible' but it would be cool if the character's UI portrait changed depending on whether they are neutral/happy/unhappy, so that you can see at a glance / have a constant visual reminder of whether your party is cheerfully following you in to hell, or sullenly executing your orders with gritted teeth.

[Barter System FTW]

it would be cool if the character's UI portrait changed depending on whether they are neutral/happy/unhappy, so that you can see at a glance / have a constant visual reminder of whether your party is cheerfully following you in to hell, or sullenly executing your orders with gritted teeth.

 

Haha! Yeah. Like that.

 

Maybe their attitude could alter toward you over time as well, so you would be aware of what they thought of you and your actions.

[Jiraboas]

Yes, but hidden. I hate such messages like "loyalty increase by 1" or something like this!

 

 

kind regards,

 

Jira

[Aedelric]

Voted 'yes, invisible' but it would be cool if the character's UI portrait changed depending on whether they are neutral/happy/unhappy, so that you can see at a glance / have a constant visual reminder of whether your party is cheerfully following you in to hell, or sullenly executing your orders with gritted teeth.

 

I like that idea, it is the only loyalty tracking method I would find acceptable.

 

Edit - Romance (If included) could also be a factor.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Aedelric

[Tychoxi]

If t'were hidden and the player had noticable warnings prior to any NPC event happening then I would be ok with it, maybe. I do not want a loyalty system that

 

1) Has me min-maxing and reloading to keep my companions around.

2) Punishes me out of nowhere for my Quest/NPC decisions without telling me in advance somehow.

3) Has me running annoying errands and playing psychiatrist for emotionally retarded companions.

 

Regarding point 2). So, when you get a quest to retrieve an item, and you decide to sell the item instead and you find 6 hours later that the questgiver has hired a bountyhunter to kill you as revenge... you'll be pissed that you were "punished" because noone said anything about selling the item???

 

If a companion suddenly decides to bend you over, you should have seen it coming given your actions and dialog chosen, it wont be "out of nowhere"!

 

I agree on point 2) and 3) (they shouldn't be annoying personal quests, they should be awesome).

 

Voted 'yes, invisible' but it would be cool if the character's UI portrait changed depending on whether they are neutral/happy/unhappy, so that you can see at a glance / have a constant visual reminder of whether your party is cheerfully following you in to hell, or sullenly executing your orders with gritted teeth.

 

We don't need that! we have the dialogue screen to show us some descriptions regarding what the companions' faces may (or may not) betray during all those moments you are affecting their "loyalty" AND said descriptions should depend on your Perception/Intelligence/Wisdom stat (or whatever makes sense in this newly developed character system).

 

And I'll again say it would be great if we have an option to turn "XX influence points lost/gained" on/off. That would please most everybody and shouldn't be hard to implement or (hopefuly) come into blows with what the devs want.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Tychoxi

[Ieo]

Voted 'yes, invisible' but it would be cool if the character's UI portrait changed depending on whether they are neutral/happy/unhappy, so that you can see at a glance / have a constant visual reminder of whether your party is cheerfully following you in to hell, or sullenly executing your orders with gritted teeth.

 

We don't need that! we have the dialogue screen to show us some descriptions regarding what the companions' faces may (or may not) betray during all those moments you are affecting their "loyalty" AND said descriptions should depend on your Perception/Intelligence/Wisdom stat (or whatever makes sense in this newly developed character system).

 

Agreed--any indication on the UI is, IMO, metagaming with a crutch and immediately immersion-breaking. We can get plenty of emotion and character in the text, especially with Avellone involved. Players only need to pay attention.

 

The only possible exception I can think of, due to the isometric design, is the portrait itself: The portaits are the only face representation that could reasonably, I think, also carry facial expression for nonverbal states/moods. (Color-coding anything isn't a great idea in UI design because a significant minority are color blind.) This would require some dynamism in implementation, preferably very nuanced, but I'd tolerate it since we have no way to see nonverbal cues besides text narration otherwise. Of course, having only the latter is still acceptable to me.

 

An on/off option would be okay. I still think the visible point meter is pathetic, though.

[Fandil]

At first I thought show it, like DA:O but just because I'm a bit neurotic and did reload all the time, like others here have posted. So what I voted and what I -really- want is to be able to enjoy the game and see the fruits of my labour, what ever that'll be, so definately a hidden counter.

 

It would be indeed great if the companions would slowly start to react differently towards you, whether for good or bad. Maybe even go as far as to refuse orders in the middle of the battle or worse yet, turn on you! In which case my neurotic side would reload with curses but my other side would laugh and be thrilled! Consequences! "You asked for it!"

 

In BG 1 while playing an evil charcater the goody-two-shoes always bugged me but I still didn't want to kill them without reason. So everytime a good NPC would leave my group because of my actions and attacked I smiled. Okay this is getting bit off topic but the more there are consequences to your actions and the more real and realistic they feel the better the immersion and replay value.