Thievery should be more prominent than in IE games

[wbn]

I did not like stealing in BG2/PS:T/IWD at all. Nicking 10gp from someone out of dialogue and only being able to steal proper items in stores did not provide as much fun to me as stealing in, for example, Fallout did.

 

 

What I'd love to see would be the ability to use my Stealing skill via conversation options (with the possibility of failure), and, most importantly, to steal from random NPCs out in the world without initiating dialogue. Of course it wouldn't make sense to steal the armor off someones back, but I'd love it if any item that is not currently worn would provide me with the option to go for it. The chance of success could be influenced by the weight or type of the item, and in special cases by how protective the owner feels towards the item.

 

 

In the interface that'd show me the contents of his/her backpack and the chance of success, you could fuzz the numbers stronger by how little Dexterity/Perception/Intelligence/Streetsmarts/Awareness the protagonist and the target has. As the last ingredient, add a cooldown to stealing (5 times within 5 minutes or something) much like the gambling/reload cooldown in New Vegas worked, and I would be one happy sonofabitch.

 

 

...Okay, this got a little out of hand, I'm not designing the game after all... but do my fellow career rogues think about making Stealing more interesting?

[Elerond]

Thiefing should least be about same what it was in PS:T, which gave you option to steal keys and other quest items from NPCs pockets so that you didn't need to do some quest for them first to acquire them.

 

But I great would prefer Arcanum style where your master thief can steal full plate mail from dwarf who is wearing it, so that dwarf don't even notice . That was absolute hilarious moment.

[Bill Gates' Son]

i like how in arcanum you could steal important items from characters you otherwise had to kill or convince to give you the item. It was a nice alternate way of playing the game; advancing through the game using stealth.

[molarBear]

how about vendors rejecting fenced goods (in pst)? ugh, that hurt :D

[Merin]

I don't choose thievery options, personally, but I like the idea of multiple ways to solve problems.

 

Love combat? Kill it and solve the quest.

Prefer sneaky? Snag the quest item (or, as mentioned above, the quest reward and ignore the quest!)

Rather be chatty? Convince the target to give you what you want, or talk the quest giver into just giving you the item without doing the quest.

 

Options are good. A game should frequently push a player outside their comfort zone, but generally allow them to solve problems the way the want to.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Merin

[PsychoBlonde]

I, personally, find stealing repugnant so this is not an aspect of the game that I've ever used. (I am NOT saying that if you DO like stealing, you're a bad person. Just sayin' how I am.) I really detest quests that you can't finish without picking a pocket, largely because I'm a bit compulsive about "cleaning up" my quest book.

 

I would prefer stealing to not be SO profitable (a la Fallout 3) that you're a fool not to take everything you can get your grubby mitts on. I'd prefer to see it more as an optional system where you can accomplish various tasks in different ways. For instance:

 

1. Your Stealy character can sneak ahead into a group of enemies and take all their potions so they get to fight you without buffs. Maybe if Stealy McStealsman is REALLY good, he can take their magic items or even WEAPONS, thus nerfing them into laughable territory.

2. You can steal quest items from people if you so choose (and your Stealer is good enough), thus circumventing the need to go to the Distant Dungeon of Farawayness to get the Magic Bunny Slippers to swap with them. (I'd also like to see, say, dialog skills that let you do this, or magic, or even just bustin a cap in their ass if that's what you want to do.) Likewise, if you really don't want to hack your way through a dungeon, no reason why you can't send the Stealer in alone to get the Quest Item and skedaddle. Assuming it's a fetch quest, anyway.

3. Funny situations like, if you steal some Valuable Artifact from Some Rich Dude, you can come back later and get a quest for him to find it and bring it back for a reward. Or, people show up and try to get it from you. Or you steal it from one person and plant it on another to antagonize them against each other. Maybe even the Exploding Pants thing.

4. If you steal from shops and get caught, people will start chasing you out of their store rather than deal with you. Granted, some other people might be more inclined to deal with you.

5. There ought to be a mechanic for getting caught after the fact--you try to sell to someone you think is a fence, and they turn out to be a cop, or a lot of people may recognize unique items as being stolen (and it should NOT mark in your inventory whether you stole something or not). Really unique items ought to have people using magic or other extraordinary measures to "track them down".

[ownagefool]

I'm asking for something that'd be hard to implement, but it'd be better if the game had a bit of common sense. Lets say I steal something big from a merchant, seeing me walk into his store, stealth up, open a chest, take the goods, unstealth, close chest, is just a stupid way to handle it. First of all, no merchant would miss the chest being opened, thus this should be reflected in the chance of getting away with it. You could, of course, have another party member distract him, but I'm fairly sure he'd figure it out after the fact. Killing him, taking the key, and taking the stuff, might be easier, but if anyone knows you entered the shop, you should definitely make a short list of suspects. Hell, even being in town at the time without an alibi could have negative conseqences.

 

This is handled a lot better in the gothic / risen series. Walk into someones house a night, they're gonna tell you to **** off. If you don't, they're gonna attack you. Go stealth in front of them, same sorta reaction. Get caught in stealth during the act, "GUARDS!!" or smash your face in. Manage to sneak in (not be seen), not make sound, not wake anyone, steal what you want. Great, good job. Sneaking should become harder the more you're carrying though.

 

Another thing on this note is "alive worlds". This is another thing games like Risen (or even skyrim) did a lot better than something like old IE games. People should leave their homes. Sure in BG, if you visited a home at the right time, it may be empty, but thats sorta a guessing game. You should be able to see people come and go, and preferably lead their lives. Being a theif would be much better if you can actually stake out the place, or give people a reason not to be in their home when you decide to get in there and rob them.

 

Despite me quoting 3D games, I don't think this sorta stuff would be out of place in this game. Obviously such mechanics and AI would be time consuming and expensive to implement, which means it probably won't make the cut, but its how it should preferably work imo.

[wbn]

I, personally, find stealing repugnant so this is not an aspect of the game that I've ever used.

 

How do you feel about killing in game, though? Or lying?

Edited September 21, 2012 by wbn

[Badmojo]

I hate when you are a thief and you barely make any money because everybody (even the nobles/rich) have very little money/items worth anything to steal. I know the developers try to prevent the character from getting rich fast, but most of the time its just more profitable to go the goody goody quest route and get the reward which never sat right with me. The whole point of being a thief is so you can get money fast! Too many games just make it so they can open locked doors so they can do the quest faster, defeating the idea of what a THIEF is. If you go the path of the thief, while the poor is justifibly..well...poor. Shop owners, nobles should have a lot of loot and money, there is no reason to go to a nobles house and all they got is 25gold and a few semi decent wepons. They are nobles, they should have clothes that cost $1000 gold pieces (there nobles, they flaunt there money), they should have chests with bags of gold in the thousands hidden, valuable magic wepons/books...etc, Will it make the person get rich fast. yes, but that is the point of being a thief.

 

I do agree that if you do something like rob a chest in front of someone they should probably attack you, but if you are sneaky behind their backs then they should not see you unless you fail a sneak skill. I also like that you can rob (sneak behind a person and take something) or steal during a dialog screen of anything they owned. Only the owners of the item you take should recognize their own stuff, but other places should not. It drove me nuts when I stole random stuff, then had to go to a special fence to sell stupid stuff like plates/goblets because everybody in the world knew that goblet and plate was stolen, magically.

 

Yea, make thief skills fun.

[Humodour]

IE-game thievery was lame. Fallout did thievery a lot better.

[Kaz]

I never liked the way an entire town would turn on you for failing to pickpocket a few coins. It could be very unforgiving in that regard, and only encouraged quick save / loads before any attempts to steal. It would be better if the consequences weren't so severe or permanent. Perhaps your pick pocket skill also increases your ability to pull off a disguise, so if you escape the agro'ed store keep's line of sight for a few minutes and return there's a chance he wouldn't recognize you.

[generic.hybridity]

Winding pickpocket into conversations with random commoners would be interesting. As well as conversations with characters you had to get quest items from.

 

Oh hello can you tell me the directions to: *Pickpocket*

 

Breaking into houses shouldn't be a matter of walking in when everyone is at home or awake. Rather having your thief sneak in after dark. If you are caught you should have to deal with the consequences or cheese it. The challenge comes in having appropriate consequences which are not merely a group of guards spawn and attack the party. Does your target catch you and box your ears? Do they subdue you and wait for law enforcement. Is there a struggle and you end up killing the NPC? If you get jailed what do you do? Just wait a number of days or is possible to pay a fine or bribe your way out of the cell or even orchestrate a jail break.

 

I guess the problem is that those sort of consequences would require a significant amount of dev investment to make interesting and believable. Even filling random NPCs backpacks with goodies and balancing it would take some time.

[Stun]

Pickpocketing was actually worth it in IWD. In Kuldahar you could pickpocket a ring of free action from both Orrick and Arundel. You could Pickpocket a ring of protection +2 and a necklace of missiles from Ozwald. Needless to say, all of those are a big deal, when you're 4th level.

 

But back to the actual point: I wish thievery wasn't so profoundly punished. In the IE games, if someone caught you stealing, that was it. They'd turn red and fight you to the death, no matter who they were. For example, In BG1 if you tried to steal from Gorion, your father, he'd turn hostile and fry you with a lightning bolt. And If Tethtoril was around, he'd join in and assist Gorian in slaughtering you. Silly. That's not even remotely logical. There should be varied responses to stealing depending on who you're stealing from.

 

Skyrim does something pretty cool. If you steal from certain NPCs, they wouldn't confront you directly. Instead, you'd find hired mercenaries ambushing you a few game days later, complete with a note on their bodies explaining who hired them and why.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Stun

[Bobby Null]

Theft mechanics never truly feel "realistic". Even titles that spend a ton of resources over the course of many titles (Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim or the GTA series) creating systems for this, still feel a little gamey. Crime is typically a difficult concept to make realistic. No one wants the game to end when the thief gets his hands cut off or tossed in prison for years. The trick is to make it fun.

 

I never liked the way an entire town would turn on you for failing to pickpocket a few coins. It could be very unforgiving in that regard, and only encouraged quick save / loads before any attempts to steal. It would be better if the consequences weren't so severe or permanent. Perhaps your pick pocket skill also increases your ability to pull off a disguise, so if you escape the agro'ed store keep's line of sight for a few minutes and return there's a chance he wouldn't recognize you.

 

I agree with this. Failing a pickpocket attempt in a game like Skyrim or Fallout usually just results in a reload (or a bloodbath). I have some ideas for Eternity that I'll talk to Josh about as the project moves further along. We did discuss thieving mechanics briefly last week.

 

...Okay, this got a little out of hand, I'm not designing the game after all... but do my fellow career rogues think about making Stealing more interesting?

 

Keep the ideas coming folks, you never know when a comment you make on these forums becomes the inspiration for a feature.

[dknight99]

I think that's a great idea about getting other group members to distract the merchant and then stealing. I really hated needing to save and reload if I missed an internal roll for the pickpocketing stat. I also agree that you should be able to get some really good loot through stealing. Remember evil wins because good is dumb, why shouldn't some who steals get something that helps them along the way, and also why can't my charming good rogue thief not steal something when I'm out trying to save the freaking world right?

[Lysen]

IE-game thievery was lame. Fallout did thievery a lot better.

 

Maybe, but I didn't steal much in Fallout. On the other hand, when I tried to rob a house in Baldur's Gate, bumped into some other thieves and they actually recognized me as a member of the guild, it was kinda awesome.

[andreisiadi]

I personally find it annoying when a dedicated rogue is an absolute must-have for the party. I would prefer thieving skills to depend strictly on stats like DEX, Perception, Intelligence etc. then throw in a trait/feat for an added bonus and that's it. This way I can choose which party member gets stuck on thief duty instead of having to choose a certain NPC just because he is the only rogue in the game. Example: BG2

[chodes]

The Fallout system of pickpocketing is great, but I don't think you should be able to see the target's full inventory. Concealed items should need a high perception, possibly combined with a thievery check to account for experience. This would allow for more unique trinkets scattered throughout the world and who doesn't love unique items? Lucky Knucky has always been one of my favorite video game items - unique, interesting, not easy to find. It gives a little more substance and sense of achievement to a skill we are all bored by.

[pipboy2000]

Although I like a stealing feature in a RPG I think it should has some obvious limits.

 

- You should not be able to steal objects someone is clearly using at the moment of the theft. Stealing the pike out of his hand or the armor he is wearing from a guardsman is, in my eyes, just ridiculous!

 

- It should be logical which items are stealable.

For example:

-- Stealing a coin purse out of a pocket / cutting it off from a belt does make sense, stealing a ring from someone's finger does not!

-- Stealing the little, decorated dagger from someone's belt makes sense, etc., stealing a two handed axe in the middle of a crowd does not (everybody around would notice, that the little Halfling did NOT own an axe of his size 2 seconds ago...)

 

- If you stroll into a house/building that is not open to the public, the residents should ask you to leave immediately and, if you stay, call the guards/attack you. I mean, how would you react, if a gang six suspicious looking people would burst into your home and start opening chests and searching shelves.

(Like ownagefool mentioned, this was done quite well in the gothic/risen series.)

 

- If you steal something from the shelves of a shop you should not be able to sell it to the shopkeeper. He would recognize his own wares.

But: I really don't like the approach that you can sell stolen goods just to certain merchants. Why would that be? Have the items a label saying: "Beware! I was stolen!"? Have the "honest" merchants some kind of sixth sense that lets them identify a certain item as stolen?

 

- If you get caught stealing / pick pocketing, there should be a harsh punishment. In most cultures, thieves faced things like chopped of hands etc.

 

- I really would love to see some (little) consequences even for successful thievery! For example:

-- If you stole a purse from a maidservant she could start complaining that she will face punishment at her employers house, because she had not been careful enough.

-- A merchant could turn on his no good bodyguards for not preventing a theft.

-- If you stole from a farmer, he could become desperate, now that he would not be able to buy the two cows he had been saving his money for 2 years.

-- If you stole from somebody who would give a quest to you later on, he could say something like: "I would have offered you 50 gold pieces, but since some bastard stole my purse, I can't."

-- If you stole from a beggar kid he could start to cry, now that he and his little sister would have to starve...

Even if it would only be "role play" consequences, I think such little events would make you think twice before doing the "steal-harvest" on a map, before moving on...

[septembervirgin]

I think the solution would be that picking pockets not be a part of the game per se.

 

I do believe robbery seems more appropriate.

[Paul D]

I think Thievery should be permitted, without the limitations often placed; like resale, needing you to "fence" your goods. In a reasonably large world you should be able to nick something from one town and sell it in another; unless it is the town ensign or something similar of course

[KhaineGB]

If crafting ends up being implemented (big if!)... then for the love of god, DON'T to a Skyrim and flag the crafted item as stolen if it was made with stolen components!

 

Also don't flag legitimately gained items as stolen if you happen to have a robbed one in your backpack. Two minor things from other games that annoy me...

[Elerond]

I would like see that stolen good are marked as stolen only if they are unique so worth can have reputation of their own. Addition to this I would like to see sytem where legimate shop keepers stop buy things from you I your reputation in town or faction drops too low and you are marked as thief, scoundrel or some other unsavory type. After that you much sell your goods on black market, where you will be cheated I you don't have good barter (or similar) skill.

[Hagen]

I would like for NPC thieves trying to steal from your party too, and the presence of a thief in your group improving your chance of avoiding it / catching them in the act.

[general_azure]

Not much of a pickpocket myself, but I'd guess restricting it to small items would make sense. No stealing someones pants while he's wearing them (see The Gamers for that).

 

I did like the sheer amount of houses you could break and rob back in BG though. Sure, there wasn't anything really valuable in almost all of those (as it should be, for some random peasants house)... but if I want to plunder Beregost just for the chuckles, why not? Maybe add some more cash/silverware (and houseguards) in upper class mansions though.

 

Also liked how the townsfolk NPCs reacted when they caught you, that is running for the nearest exit to get the flaming fist instead of going into a suicide charge. Noone in his right mind should attack an armed and armored group with his bare hands/butterknife to defend some cheap bauble. Let the guards handle it.