[merged] Vancian Magic System and cooldowns

[aVENGER]

Per Wikipedia:

Cooldown is, in numerous video games, the minimum length of time that the player needs to wait after using an ability before they can use it again.

 

Vote no if you prefer a Vancian magic system (spell memorization), a mana/stamina/energy pool or anything else besides cooldowns. Vote yes if cooldowns are your prefered means of balancing the use of spells/abilities.

[aVENGER]

Besides, if you WERE to use this poll for anything along those lines - the majority voted against Vancian. But, again, it really doesn't mean much at all either way.

 

Good point. Let's make it a bit simpler then. The final decision is of course up to the developers, and I'm confident that they will do a good job, but it might still be interesting to know where the community's preferences stand on this matter.

[Naril]

cooldowns feel like they trivialize magic. Especially high level magic.

[Luckmann]

This poll is bad and you should feel bad.

 

First the question is simple. Do you want cooldowns for using spells/abilities in Project Eternity. Fine. Alright. Yes.

 

Then you change it and say, in the post, that one should vote No if you prefer this or that.

 

It's simplistic and useless, and on top of it, it is already covered better by other polls or threads, with plenty of discussion.

 

I want cooldowns. But I also want everything else. I've made this clear time and time again.

[aVENGER]

This poll is bad and you should feel bad.

 

First the question is simple. Do you want cooldowns for using spells/abilities in Project Eternity.

 

That was actually the desired intent. To make it clear how many people prefer to have cooldowns in the game above any other mechanic.

[Haerski]

So this poll is basically cooldowns against all the rest of the magic systems ever used in video game history. Well that's helpful. I wonder which sides going to win...

 

I refuse to vote.

 

EDIT: Threads got merged so what I said above doesn't mean this poll.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Haerski

[flarglebargle]

i'd just like playing a mage to feel right no game i have played has captured what makes mages so badass, being a mage in video games swings from being your unstoppable (DAO with arcane warrior spec) to your a baby fighting mike tyson(skyrim) it'd be nice if magic in PE was what it's like in books your powerful but fragile but if your prepared and smart your going to be fine and fun most games being a mage is like sticking your pecker in a pencil sharpener

Edited October 1, 2012 by flarglebargle

[Luckmann]

This poll is bad and you should feel bad.

 

First the question is simple. Do you want cooldowns for using spells/abilities in Project Eternity.

 

That was actually the desired intent. To make it clear how many people prefer to have cooldowns in the game above any other mechanic.

Then you shouldn't change the premise of the poll in your post.

 

So this poll is basically cooldowns against all the rest of the magic systems ever used in video game history. Well that's helpful. I wonder which sides going to win...

 

I refuse to vote.

This. Out of all the currently active polls, this one is probably the most useless. And when it comes to polls, most of them are.

[kirottu]

Isn't Vancian system effectively a cooldown system?

[Althernai]

I despise cooldowns. I realize that balancing spells and abilities is hard, but cooldowns strike me as by far the laziest way to do it. I would be very happy if Obsidian left such mechanics to MMOs and came up with a better way.

[Enoch]

Hey, every one of the IE games had cooldowns on abilities-- those cooldowns were just all locked at 1 combat round each. (IIRC, 6 seconds?)

 

In transitioning to a system that is designed for Real Time use, as opposed to a tabletop turn-based system shoehorned into a real-time CRPG, of course you need some kind of limit on how rapidly you can use your abilities. Otherwise, pure Diablo-clickspam becomes the killer tactic.

[Tigranes]

Merged the cooldown thread, since it's really parts of the same discussion. Apologies for the confusion.

[Tuco Benedicto]

I'm completely indifferent to this issue. I'm not for (or against) either cooldowns or memorized spells, just to their inappropriate use.

 

Cooldowns can be a completely legit way to force some balance in abilities that are intended for a frequent use but you don't want to see spammed, while memorization (or similar mechanics) can be far more appropriate use for spells intended for a very delayed use or to make them a limited resource (i.e. "You have just four spells of this kind and you won't be able to use them anymore unless you rest").

 

Beside, they aren't even mutually exclusive systems and they can easily coexist.

 

P.S. On a side note, I fiercely dislike the low flexibility on the memorization system in D&D, but I recently I heard a very nice variant to the same idea: Chaos Chronicles' developers are implementing in their new turn based RPG a slot system similar to the D&D one, but instead of memorizing every single spell a caster wnats to use, he simply has a limited number of slots for each spell level, and then as far as slots are available, he can cast freely *any* spell in that level range.

 

To put it simple:

- In D&D a mage who knows six "level 3 spells" and that can cast three of them every day needs to choose exactly which ones he want to memorize for the day.

- In Chaos Chronicles a mage who knows six "level 3 spells" and that can cast 3 of them every day doesn't need to memorize crap, he just can cast any of these spells for a max amount of three of them.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto

[Ieo]

Uh. Too many posts for me to go through (at work *cough*).

 

I'd really like a creative combination, since I'm used to all the systems and their pros/cons (mana pool + cooldown + discrete memorization + mystery soul mechanic). That might get too complicated for some players, though.

 

Example: Spells require certain amount of mana from little to a lot by tier, and each tier has a different cooldown (none/short for low level and long for high level, like a type of exhaustion mechanic), and you can memorize a certain number of spells per tier. The soul could affect--amount of mana you have, cooldown times per tier, and the number of spells you can memorize per tier. Then there's the linear progression system, but that tends to lower the number of available spells one can learn; I'm sure that could be worked in somehow.

 

Basically, I'm with those that the systems can work together creatively. Since I'm personally used to all of them in different games, I'll accept whatever Obsidian comes up with, though.

[Gfted1]

Whatever verbage we feel like using, a mage character should be useful every "round". Firing off a spell and then being forced to plink away with your 1D4 sling while you wait for something to recharge is the epitome of suck.

[Haerski]

Isn't Vancian system effectively a cooldown system?

 

Basically yes. In vancian system you have to rest in tavern or other place where this is allowed to recharge your spells, while in usual cooldown system you'll have to wait certain time OR rest to recharge. Cooldown time usually depends on power of the spell. Only real difference is that in Vancian you have limited amount of spells to use before you rest again so prepare to run like crazy between tavern and dungeon. Same thing when you notice you forgot to memorize some spell you needed ----> Back to tavern. I honestly don't know why anyone prefers pure Vancian system in CRPGs.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Haerski

[Wirdjos]

I know this is a couple of pages late, but no one else jumped in.

 

I find it hard to believe that a pure Vancian system could even be used considering the only real thing we know about the setting is that magic runs on soul power.

 

Do you have a link for that? I don't recall reading that at all.

 

I'm getting that from update #5 on the nature of souls.

http://www.kickstart...ty/posts/312639

Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them.

On further review, I might have exaggerated a bit. I believe the above heavily implies that souls will be the conduit of magic at least and that 'stronger' souls have an easier time with magic. From this I am speculating that magic will run on, or at least be limited by, the power of one's soul.

 

 

Because liking it was not enough.

I'm not going to rule out cooldowns and I'm not going to design the entire magic system on the fly over the course of three weeks. Both Tim and I want the magic system to feel expansive, powerful, and flexible. We want the player to have to make prep choices when selecting spells for active use. These things do not require a Vancian system, nor do they require the absence of cooldowns as a mechanic. As I wrote in one of the class threads, our goal with class design is not to limit the role of classes but to ensure that every class does have at least one combat role they can clearly excel in. This does not mean that wizards won't be able to cast protective spells, transformative spells, etc. It is likely that they will not be able to select from all of those things in the moment but unlikely that we will require the player to rest to change what he or she has access to.

I really appreciate the hard line you're taking here with what you will and will not do. I'm glad that you are listening, but refuse to let anyone else make the call. Bravo, sir.

[AlexAB]

Hello! I haven't really been active in these forums, but I have been following a few of the discussions. This topic is one of my favorite, so I thought I would chime in.

 

I much prefer the old D&D Vancian system. Not because I think it is the best possible, but because I think it is the best we have any chance of getting. People have already argued about the pros and cons of the system a lot, but I think the main thing has to do with this thing that was posted in ENWorld a while ago. Basically, I think people who want a vancian magic system want to be able to plan, to examine the situations and play lots of curve balls. In other words, they want combat as war. They don't care so much (or, at least in my case, at all) if the damage progression of a fireball follows that of a magic sword a fighter can use. They don't care if combat is all about a balanced conflict, where you have to use the right counters at the right time and keep track of specific strategies for your build. They want a much wilder thing, where a spell that can be absolutely devastating in certain situations is nearly useless at other times. They want to combine their abilities to invent new ways to win conflicts.

 

In a way, I think combat as war games are a bit like Adventure games. It isn't about mastering certain, specific patterns and then using them well and flawlessly like tactics. It is much more about seeing how things could fit together at any one time and then doing it. Different from most Adventure games, however, combat as war people like to invent things, rather than finding the right solution someone invented, although this is hard to do in a computer game. It can still be "approached", though, by having many, different interactions and solutions for problems, as well as trying to rely in systems rather than static scripts.

 

Magic in a few modern games, like say, the fourth edition of D&D, is very removed from this. It is all about making sure the math is a zero sum game, so you can master the overall system. I rather dislike this approach. In this mode, the game is all about trying to understand what is there, and then find the best ways to use then. While in combat as war, spells can be more of an exploratory element. They can be more of a part of a setting, because they are free from having to conform to "balanced" rules. In Planescape: Torment, Chromatic Orb and Missile of Patience were level 1 spells. That would never fly for most 4e players, but they were fun for that game. Chromatic orb worked a lot better in P&P because it cost a very expensive gem to cast. Not only that, but it also added a certain feel to the game. Since it is not the only spell depending on colors, (there were the prismatic spells too), it created a certain notion that those colors were part of a bigger thing. You could, if you wanted, build on them. They worked as a (minor) setting element. And while missile of patience was obviously broken, it was a setting element as well, something for the player to explore. Spells as setting elements, as something for you to explore, to use, to try out in different ways, are what makes mages fun for combat as war people, I think.

 

Now, I don't really think everyone who voted for the vancian system prefers this way of playing, but I think at least a sizable chunk does. Which is why I am writing this post. Also, I wanted to comment on Mr. Sawyers earlier post:

 

Knock and its old friends spider climb and invisibility are part of a classic family of spells that made rogue and thief players say, "Hey, why do I exist?" I don't believe their inclusion in pre-4E editions of D&D and AD&D was a great thing.(...snip)

 

I really disagree with this. Yes, a low level mage could play the role of a rogue... for 5 minutes maybe. Then he would be out of spells for the day, and would be basically a torch bearer for the rest of the session. A high level magic user could play the role of a low level rogue the whole game, but he wouldn't be able to even touch what a high level one could do. Having a thieves' guild, access to informants and contacts and so on could cover a lot of ground that magic can't. Sure, the mage can summon allies, but what you can use an army of skeletons and an army of low level thieves for are very different things. Sure, the mage could get powerful divination spells, but those could cost his own mind, and didn't necessarily give the mage the insight into the human heart a high level rogue could get.

 

And just like magic can always try to find a way to befuddle normal people, so can normal people try to confuse it. For example, in a game I ran a while ago, I had this locked door. It had a special lock that required two keys to be turned in sequence. Trying to turn both at the same time (or using a wrong timing) triggered a guillotine trap right before it. It was made so because I ruled the knock spell would try to turn both locks at the same time, if there was more than one, so trying to knock the door would trigger the trap no matter what. You can always come up with fun ideas to make the spells and abilities different. Maybe a certain surface is porous, so if you try to spider walk there, the little hooks the spell create will leave you stuck at each step. Maybe the basic invisibility doesn't erase your reflection from cold iron mirrors. And everybody knows that gorgon blood applied to a wall makes it impossible to ghosts and ethereal travelers to go through it.

 

I also think the stuff about cool downs is related. Cool downs usually don't make sense, as it isn't you are too tired, or that you have used up some specific resource to trigger your ability. Instead, they feel like the game nakedly added a mechanic there to keep things balanced. It doesn't feel like a setting element, but a balancing measure that, obviously, can't be gamed. This goes against what people who like combat as war like in a game. We want there to be limitations, of course, but we want those limitations explained, expounded, and with little intricacies in themselves that we can try to game them to our favor. We want wish spells that try to interpret your words maliciously, so you have to play the lawyer to get what you want. We want magic missiles that, if manifested as an actual arrow, can be used to move a lever. But if its manifestation is a beam of light, then it can be reflected with mirrors. Grease spells that can be washed with soapy water, and will make you really unlikely to impress royalty if you just slipped on it. Shrink spells that, much more than giving you a bonus or penalty, can be used to make a plank into a bridge, or shrink that huge statue so you can move it out of the dungeon and get a lot of cash for it. Mount spells that, more than just calling a horse "made of shadows", summons a shadow horse with red eyes, who may whisper something disturbing in your ear once in a blue moon when summoned. We want Clairvoyance that not only shows you what is afar, but does so by parting the fogs in a hidden area of your brain, and once in a while show things that aren't quite there, but may be hints or portents of things to come.

 

Finally, while I understand this is a big issue, and difficult to simply decide anything without making some people feel excluded, I would like to suggest that this too could be an option. I mean, you could have some classes that are very well balanced against each other, and that would make the game very challenging, tactically speaking, to play if only they are chosen. However, you could also make content for the people who like combat as war, making classes that act like old D&D ones. They could be marked in character selection, and if people choose them, they know the game won't be balanced, but they are the ones making that choice. Thanks for hearing me out.

Edited October 1, 2012 by AlexAB

[Tuco Benedicto]

Isn't Vancian system effectively a cooldown system?

 

Basically yes. In vancian system you have to rest in tavern or other place where this is allowed to recharge your spells, while in usual cooldown system you'll have to wait certain time OR rest to recharge. Cooldown time usually depends on power of the spell. Only real difference is that in Vancian you have limited amount of spells to use before you rest again so prepare to run like crazy between tavern and dungeon. Same thing when you notice you forgot to memorize some spell you needed ----> Back to tavern. I honestly don't know why anyone prefers pure Vancian system in CRPGs.

While the vancian system has its own flaws (and I even pointed one of them in my previous post) you are trivializing this way too much.

Ideally the system is NOT about running back and forth from tavern to dungeon, it's about managing a limited resource.

[codexer]

Well, I guess you have to choose; either you meta-game or you "role-play"~

[Elerond]

Ideally the system is NOT about running back and forth from tavern to dungeon, it's about managing a limited resource.

 

Purpose for mana points and cooldowns are same. They are only different approach to problem. And so are skill check sytem, especially if game also implements stamina system. And Cost (reagent) system is maybe mostly about managing limited resources. So vancian sytem is not really any different from other magic system to this end.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Elerond

[Haerski]

Isn't Vancian system effectively a cooldown system?

 

Basically yes. In vancian system you have to rest in tavern or other place where this is allowed to recharge your spells, while in usual cooldown system you'll have to wait certain time OR rest to recharge. Cooldown time usually depends on power of the spell. Only real difference is that in Vancian you have limited amount of spells to use before you rest again so prepare to run like crazy between tavern and dungeon. Same thing when you notice you forgot to memorize some spell you needed ----> Back to tavern. I honestly don't know why anyone prefers pure Vancian system in CRPGs.

While the vancian system has its own flaws (and I even pointed one of them in my previous post) you are trivializing this way too much.

Ideally the system is NOT about running back and forth from tavern to dungeon, it's about managing a limited resource.

...and when you fail to manage those resources, for example in situations where you don't know exactly what's ahead of you, it turns into running back and forth. At my first playthrough of every Infinity Engine games this happened at least couple of times and it was extremely frustrating every time. Then there are of course situations where you have no possibility to go back and you have to defeat all enemies before you are able to rest again. In those situations you can play yourself into corner where only way out is to die or reload. (if you still have older save file)

 

I know you all have played Infinity Engine games million times through and know exactly what's behind every corner and at that point it might even be a little bit fun to plan with which spells I'm gonna kick that boss's ass this time around, but on the first and most important playthrough it's not fun at all. I like to have all options with me all the time, so if I wanna change tactics in middle of dungeon I don't have to go take an 8 hour nap in between. It doesn't make sense at all.

 

I think anything from cooldowns and mana pools to different combinations of those are far better than this ancient remnant from tabletop-RPGs.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Haerski

[Umberlin]

I'm not going to rule out cooldowns and I'm not going to design the entire magic system on the fly over the course of three weeks. Both Tim and I want the magic system to feel expansive, powerful, and flexible. We want the player to have to make prep choices when selecting spells for active use. These things do not require a Vancian system, nor do they require the absence of cooldowns as a mechanic. As I wrote in one of the class threads, our goal with class design is not to limit the role of classes but to ensure that every class does have at least one combat role they can clearly excel in. This does not mean that wizards won't be able to cast protective spells, transformative spells, etc. It is likely that they will not be able to select from all of those things in the moment but unlikely that we will require the player to rest to change what he or she has access to.

 

Please don't mistake my concerns for a lack of support. I really hope you create something wonderful, and am eager to see the results, I'd just feel amiss if I didn't voice my concerns, whether they're worthwhile or not. I'm sure that goes for a lot of us here, we feel strongly about it because we care.

 

Thank you for the clarity. Good luck with what you're trying to do.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Umberlin

[Sylvius the Mad]

Whatever verbage we feel like using, a mage character should be useful every "round". Firing off a spell and then being forced to plink away with your 1D4 sling while you wait for something to recharge is the epitome of suck.

I completely disagree. Having the magic system designed so that there's always something to do seems like busywork.

 

If my mage can wait for all of the enemies to be herded into a group and then kill them all with a single spell, that's way cooler than constant casting of smaller spells.

 

Fighters do something every round. Mages don't. Partly because that sort of design would dramatically limit magical power. There aren't going to be any spells that kill everyone if the mage is expected to be casting constantly.

[Tuco Benedicto]

Ideally the system is NOT about running back and forth from tavern to dungeon, it's about managing a limited resource.

Purpose for mana points and cooldowns are same

Barely, and in very different ways, especially where mana regen is involved. Cooldowns aren't strictly about limiting resources, but limiting the overuse of power moves/abilities in a short spawn of time.

Memorization is all about limiting your resources for a fairly large amount of time (i.e. "I'm entering this dungeon now and I know that if I don't want to make a boring travel back to town I'll need to use these resources carefully").

Mana is a limited resource in the sense that gives you a limit of spells you can use in a row, but doesn't prevent you to use, for instance, the same useful but inexpensive spell very often as far as mana is available.

 

So, if what you are trying to say is that every mechanic can find its place in a game, then I agree with you; if you are saying that they are essentially the same thing, then you are wrong.

 

...and when you fail to manage those resources, for example in situations where you don't know exactly what's ahead of you, it turns into running back and forth. At my first playthrough of every Infinity Engine games this happened at least couple of times and it was extremely frustrating every time.

That's just you playing poorly and/or exploiting the system.

If anything the problem with IE games was that they didn't punished/discouraged that kind of behavior hardly enough.

Resting in the middle of a dungeon should be far more dangerous and going back to town to rest should be far more problematic (i.e. you end wasting way too much time to end a timed quest or like in Dark Souls when you rest all minor enemies respawn with you).

 

Of course, developers usually don't like these punishing mechanics, despise how they make things much more interesting, because there are many people, even on this forum, that don't like to play to master the mechanics but "just for the story",

Edited October 1, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto