Armour and weapon designs - a plea.

[FlintlockJazz]

Plate isn't the end all be all of protection. It has gaps and joints that can be exploited, and for certain forms of damage mail is more effective. Though mail is more expensive and heavier.

 

Of course you could wear a mail hauberk under a breast plate, if you didn't mind burning to death.

 

Or an arming jacket that would provide armour to the joints without the need for a full undersuit of mail like most people of the period wore. Heat is always an issue when wearing plate though.

[Leucha]

I don't want realistic stuff. I play a game to dream. I'm bored of serious business in later games. I'm good with fantasy design as far as it's not "too much" (I'm fine with "boobplates" à la PA report Cadegund concept, for exemple). Players and games forgot to dream these days.

[Baudolino05]

Plate isn't the end all be all of protection. It has gaps and joints that can be exploited, and for certain forms of damage mail is more effective. Though mail is more expensive and heavier.

 

Of course you could wear a mail hauberk under a breast plate, if you didn't mind burning to death.

 

Believe me, a terrific well crafted chainmail didn't cost half as a cheap plate armor in late middle-age, and it wasn't heavier at all. It was just less "ergonomic". An average full plate armor weights a little more than a full chainmails suit (30 kilos against 25-27), but when you wear a chainmail you feel like all the weight is on you shoulders, and is not comfortable at all. Furthermore a plate armor is generally considered better against any kind of attack, but obviously has weak spots, so you need to cover them with something flexible like chainmail.

 

PS: before you ask. Yes, I tried both kind of armor in person...

Edited September 28, 2012 by Baudolino05

[TrashMan]

What he said.

 

Plate has joints, but those joints are covered by something else, and there's of course the side armoring around joing specifcly to prevent you hitting the joint.

Hitting the joint is very difficult - especially with enough force to do proper damage.

 

And chaimail doesn't offer better protection in ay case. Absolutely none.

Slashing? nope. It's great, but plate is better.

Piercing? nope. Again great, but plate is better.

Blunt? HELL no. Chain has got little protection agaisnt that. Most armors got little protection against blunt come to think of it.

[Silver6986]

Good lord, please this! Go with at least a semi-realistic look of things. I remember on thing that stopped me from getting Dragon Age 2 after playing the demo was this ridiculous Anime feel its clothes, armor and oversized weapons had. Please, Obsidian, don't go for 200 pound swords and spiky bikini chainmail armor!

 

Bang on! Hope to god it ends up being like the BG series, the items looked quite intricate and ornamental as opposed to looking crazy ridiculous, I dunno what went wrong with modern RPGs and this over-the-top design philosophy, this might sound silly but the older games came across as more realistic or perhaps the word is believable to me...

[Silver6986]

I don't want realistic stuff. I play a game to dream. I'm bored of serious business in later games. I'm good with fantasy design as far as it's not "too much" (I'm fine with "boobplates" à la PA report Cadegund concept, for exemple). Players and games forgot to dream these days.

 

I take it that you are the type of person that doesn't mind playing chicks in RPGs and walking around in what amounts to a strippers outfit when fighting a horde of monsters and such? Dude if you want that dream then go watch some role play porno, sheesh. At best that sort of thing is reserved for Mods and those who feel so inclined.

 

Always cringed at all the skimpy outfits for download over at The Fallout Nexus.

[Karranthain]

Hhmmm, I deifnitly like the complexity of his outfit. The breast plate does look very ornate, and that makes me think . . . you know what, you're a Mage, magic and all, would your plate just be 'plate' or would you incribe it with wards and such? The ornate etchings on the breast plate you posted made me think of that.

 

 

And that is very pretty, very intricate.

 

Good idea, I could definitely see Wizards inscribing various runes or sigils on their armour.

 

Still I do wonder if there shouldn't also be reason for a Wizard to go a way other than heavy armor, if they so wish, just for choice. I can understand someone who wanted to play a magic using type character not wanting to use heavier armor, and being discouraged if it really is the best, or worse, the only, way to go.

 

Easiest way to do it is to have various advantages and disadvantages for using armour. For an instance, war mages could fight in full plate, but their magical ability would suffer. Some would eschew armour completely - their magical power would be immense, but they'd really vulnerable to firearms. That'd open up interesting possibilities for the player.

 

Oh I don't doubt it, I just wonder what we'll see more of. I just think about the usual 'sword obsession' you see in RPGs to the point that plenty of other interesting weapons get ignored. I actually think the Rapier is an interesting weapon in general, I just wonder what people will use if given the freedom to use whatever they want.

 

I don't like class weapon restrictions myself, I'd rather see them removed (that said, some weapons would suit specific playstyles more); on the topic of wizards, however, I just think that a rapier would fit them pretty well, being a very elegant weapon.

 

The one hand free thing would be an interesting mechanic, and actually reminds me of DAoC as one of the spell casting classes, that, oddly, used piercing weapons in one hand, would keep one hand free to cast spells.

 

It'd definitely look unique, I reckon.

[Karranthain]

So, on the topic of Cadegund :

 

 

 

What do you like/dislike about this particular design?

Personally, I find it very nice, I only have some reservations about the chainmail underneath the plate - i.e. it doesn't look like chain at all

But I'm very happy with the overall look of the armour, no oversized pauldrons or spikes.

[Umberlin]

So, on the topic of Cadegund :

 

What do you like/dislike about this particular design?

Personally, I find it very nice, I only have some reservations about the chainmail underneath the plate - i.e. it doesn't look like chain at all

But I'm very happy with the overall look of the armour, no oversized pauldrons or spikes.

 

I like it overall, but my favorite aspect is the combination of the draping cloth with the plate. I like it when RPGs do things like that to give some extra armor personality. It's a good way to do so without going too far, and large cloth pieces that drape like that, tabards and the like, are also typically visual as we saw in BG2, which was helped by the fact that you could adjust the colors on such pieces to your liking. It was a good way of allowing for a little to 'stand out' visually for a perspective that typically makes it hard for some more intricate details to be seen.

[Ieo]

So, on the topic of Cadegund :

 

 

What do you like/dislike about this particular design?

Personally, I find it very nice, I only have some reservations about the chainmail underneath the plate - i.e. it doesn't look like chain at all

But I'm very happy with the overall look of the armour, no oversized pauldrons or spikes.

 

No boob plate. (You'd have to see the before/after.) No spiky things. No oversized pauldrons and whatnot. Josh said that she's wearing an arming cap, which is fitting.

 

Specifically, I'll repeat my reaction here:

 

Happy belated 402nd, Chris!

 

I just managed to revisit the Kickstarter page and spotted the change. My head about exploded.

 

Can this possibly be? :wub:

 

BEST FEMALE WARRIOR DESIGN EVER IN GAMING HISTORY?

 

Yes, I know it's subjective, but from the 'realism' perspective... It's a "little" token thing, to be sure, relative to all the chain bikini or plate-midriff designs out there, but that this is up and shown to the public has really increased my faith in the project all the more. Sincere thanks from me. I really did not expect this.

 

I assumed the stuff under the plate wasn't chain but some kind of leather. There's a good amount of no-nonsense vibe in the overall design but a few touches that definitely give the set more personality. The only thing I'm concerned about is manual dexterity in handling the gun/blunderbuss/thing using fully armoured fingers--I'd prefer a leather glove under a non-articulated steel demi-gauntlet.

 

However, this is just concept art; we wouldn't be seeing that kind of detail in-game, so whatever!

[Karranthain]

I like it overall, but my favorite aspect is the combination of the draping cloth with the plate. I like it when RPGs do things like that to give some extra armor personality. It's a good way to do so without going too far, and large cloth pieces that drape like that, tabards and the like, are also typically visual as we saw in BG2, which was helped by the fact that you could adjust the colors on such pieces to your liking. It was a good way of allowing for a little to 'stand out' visually for a perspective that typically makes it hard for some more intricate details to be seen.

 

Yeah, I like it too - the cloth might be slightly too long though (if we'd be nitpicking, that is).

 

No boob plate. (You'd have to see the before/after.) No spiky things. No oversized pauldrons and whatnot. Josh said that she's wearing an arming cap, which is fitting.

I assumed the stuff under the plate wasn't chain but some kind of leather. There's a good amount of no-nonsense vibe in the overall design but a few touches that definitely give the set more personality. The only thing I'm concerned about is manual dexterity in handling the gun/blunderbuss/thing using fully armoured fingers--I'd prefer a leather glove under a non-articulated steel demi-gauntlet.

 

However, this is just concept art; we wouldn't be seeing that kind of detail in-game, so whatever!

 

It looks weird for leather too, in fact I have no idea what might it be And I agree that the down to earth design is really well done here.

As for the glove - I think Cadegund would be fine really, it's not like it's a trigger - it's more of a lever

 

Though I must say I still like this piece the most :

 

[Ieo]

It looks weird for leather too, in fact I have no idea what might it be And I agree that the down to earth design is really well done here.

As for the glove - I think Cadegund would be fine really, it's not like it's a trigger - it's more of a lever

 

Though I must say I still like this piece the most :

 

 

Ah, noted on the lever thing. I know there's been a fair bit of discussion on the specific gun mechanics, but I kind of glazed over there.

 

And given the sample above, I just realized something....

 

 

Is that a whole sheet of concept Cadegunds? *squint* Plenty of obvious boob plate options, and dear goodness, one with a bare midriff... But it looks like they went with the lower right-most sample. The upper left corner looks great to me too (is that a super long braid I spot?), and the middle top row for a lighter geared version. I wonder if the detail here is roughly what we'd see in-game.

[Kaldurenik]

Well its kinda hard to say what a mage will use right now... We dont know how the spell system will work. The only thing we know is that items will most likely have a weight... That means that might not be practical to put your mage in the heaviest armour you can find (unless he have the strength for it)...Ofc because we dont know how stats work it might be balanced in such a way that if you spread out your points to much you might not be able to cast as many spells or they are weaker. Heck there might even be other penalties if you have weight when you have low strength.

 

But anyway im happy that we will see mages that can use heavy armour / other weapons if you want the mage to have a heavier armour.

[Kissamies]

Actually I wouldn't mind seeing some chainmail bikini as a nod to the trope but only if:

1. There's some plausible reason, like gladiators dressing skimpy for the benefit of the audience.
   
2. The game doesn't try to pretend they offer protection. A chainmail bikini if not an equivalent of a chain hauberk or metal coconut bra of a breastplate. Of course there might be a set of such armor enchanted ring of protection style, but that's different.
   
3. As unisex armor often is the case on these games, it should look like an equally skimpy male version when worn by a male character.
   

That being said, it'd be probably a waste of resources for the sake of one gag.

[The Sharmat]

I think the stuff under the plate may be scale armor sewn on leather or stiff cloth.

[Furiku]

I prefer this, although it's not showing enough skin.

I hope they release Modtools so people can fix the game and remove all the politically correct/social justice garbage from it like on Oblivion/Skyrim Nexus.

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

I prefer this, although it's not showing enough skin.

I hope they release Modtools so people can fix the game and remove all the politically correct/social justice garbage from it like on Oblivion/Skyrim Nexus.

I'd say it's more about making armor that makes sense rather than being politically correct. Protective armor rarely shows much skin, for obvious reasons, and when armor looks protective, it makes sense in the game world in which protection is needed in order to stay alive.

[Umberlin]

I prefer this, although it's not showing enough skin.

I hope they release Modtools so people can fix the game and remove all the politically correct/social justice garbage from it like on Oblivion/Skyrim Nexus.

 

Huh, personally, I thought it looked more ridiculous than politically incorrect. I'm glad it's gone, but not for the reasons you're suggesting.

 

In terms of how sexual a game game can be in some of its clothing? Honestly as long as conservative and middleground alternatives 'also' exist within the game, for everyone, so that no one is forced into it, I don't mind there also being skimpier clothing. It just shouldn't be the only thing there, and it definitly shouldn't be something a player is forced into using, for statistical reasons, if they dislike such things.

 

However, I don't think of that picture as being skimpy or politically incorrect, as I said, it just looks ridiculous.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Umberlin

[Karranthain]

 

Is that a whole sheet of concept Cadegunds? *squint* Plenty of obvious boob plate options, and dear goodness, one with a bare midriff... But it looks like they went with the lower right-most sample. The upper left corner looks great to me too (is that a super long braid I spot?), and the middle top row for a lighter geared version. I wonder if the detail here is roughly what we'd see in-game.

 

I think you're right - the shield looks the same.

I like the upper left corner version too - look slightly Spanish.

 

 

Well its kinda hard to say what a mage will use right now... We dont know how the spell system will work. The only thing we know is that items will most likely have a weight... That means that might not be practical to put your mage in the heaviest armour you can find (unless he have the strength for it)...Ofc because we dont know how stats work it might be balanced in such a way that if you spread out your points to much you might not be able to cast as many spells or they are weaker. Heck there might even be other penalties if you have weight when you have low strength.

 

But anyway im happy that we will see mages that can use heavy armour / other weapons if you want the mage to have a heavier armour.

 

What kind of designs would you like them to use though? Ideally they'd still retain their unique identity, even when wearing heavy armour.

I've suggested cuirasses, because it'd give them a unique look - and it's probably the best choice for them, due to being relatively light and not limiting freedom of movement.

 

I think the stuff under the plate may be scale armor sewn on leather or stiff cloth.

 

Still not convinced Edair concept art also has this, but it's far less pronounced. Maybe it's something else entirely?

In any case, I must say that I think chainmail would've looked better. But I also acknowledge that's it's a very nitpicky concern to have

[themanclaw]

Actually I wouldn't mind seeing some chainmail bikini as a nod to the trope but only if:

1. There's some plausible reason, like gladiators dressing skimpy for the benefit of the audience.
    
   
2. The game doesn't try to pretend they offer protection. A chainmail bikini if not an equivalent of a chain hauberk or metal coconut bra of a breastplate. Of course there might be a set of such armor enchanted ring of protection style, but that's different.
    
   
3. As unisex armor often is the case on these games, it should look like an equally skimpy male version when worn by a male character.
   

That being said, it'd be probably a waste of resources for the sake of one gag.

 

Exactly what I was getting at earlier. It all comes down to if its fits within certain context. For example, historically, there were warriors who fought with little clothing, even if they weren't female, hence, revealing apparel for males and females could make sense.

[Zz'gashi]

I think it's important that weapons and equipment look believably functional, and real life is a very good reference, but we fantasy games need an exotic element to them. Instead of making thing equipment nonsensical shapes and sizes I think it's best to make up fantastic materials and ways they are forged. I feel like Elder Scrolls's glass and deadric armors/weapons are good examples of this.

[Adhin]

Yeah I agree for the most part, I think you'd want some more fantastical looking 'designs' on stuff for artifact like weapons or armor. But generally speaking stuff that just looks a bit more useable would be nice. And it is 3D models for stuff this time so that should mean they can do some custom assets for some more unique weapons and armor in mid-later game stuff. But what really, really gets me.. is the 'effects' you get on weapons.

 

For that, look at Dragon's Dogma PLEASE. It was so beautiful and simple in that. your whole weapon didn't look like a thousand torchs just because you had 4 fire dmg. When your weapon was enchanted with a fire spell the 'blade' glowed orange.. just the blade! no crazy fire flailing all over, no gaudy fire frail that lasts for seconds. Just a very elegant, pleasing, glowing blade. Also had some super-feint sparks when you swung but, really, they did weapon enchanting in that game, visually, perfect in my opinion. Was just beautiful.

[The Sharmat]

I'm actually ok with bikini armor if it's in a strip club or something I guess.

[Karranthain]

I'm actually ok with bikini armor if it's in a strip club or something I guess.

 

Stretch goal?

[Monte Carlo]

Bikini armour might be ceremonial. Any excuse to get a suit of it in somewhere.

 

What about 'glamered' armour, i.e. armour enchanted to look like something else. Hell, a head-to-foot suit of plate might be enchanted to look like a chainmail bikini to distract male opponents.

 

Old-skool chauvinism --- using magic to justify chainmail bikinis since 1979!