Crafting systems in offline RPG's

[Hassat Hunter]

So, recent RPG discussions threw around terms as "good crafting system", "crafting sucks", "there is no crafting system so it must suck"...

 

So, let me ask you what does a crafting system to an offline RPG add? Besides tediousness that is? For this overview I reference the following 4 games; "Knights of the Old Republic II", "Fallout: New Vegas", "Witcher II" and "Drakensang II"

Of these 4 games KOTOR2 probably added it best. It uses a single resource (or 2, for 2 different craftings), easy access to it. Also, it was utterly useless and I never touched it during the game.

 

Then there are the other 3 systems. All 3 use weight and/or limited slots, so it comes up about 3 ways to use crafting;

A) Carry about as much crap as possible through the game, hoping it may sometimes be useful (my Drakensang and Witcher ways).

B) Sell/drop all crafting items, and search about for them when needed. Which can be tedious, since most systems require about 20+ items for an item to be crafted, so good luck searching.

C) A, but with a mod to remove the weight limit, so instantly you have everything you needed for crafting. Definitely the most fun, also a big YOU FAIL to developers. And a good example why I think crafting systems in offline RPG's are an utter failure.

Yet, many more titles include them. Making them pretty much required for the best items. Ans many gamers act like an RPG without crafting is no RPG...

 

Yet, what I see happening is;

*Old RPG*: "Here, have an Superb Witcher Silver Sword" *player goes off with it*

*New RPG*: "Here, have the Superb Witcher Silver Sword Schematic* *player spends 15 minutes scrounching for the remaining items, still has it before meeting any enemy*

Thus, added tedium. Can't be the only one who hardly bothers in The Witcher or Drakensang to even collect all these plants. Too timeconsuming. Rather could do something... I don't know... fun?

 

Now games like System Shock of Fallout: New Vegas thematically it makes sense to have limited resources and scrounge about what you need through, say, crafting. Still, I can't really say I am fond of how it happens in New Vegas either. Haven't really played enough to tell if you need "spare" for items like Witcher II or if it's merely for making ammo and such, all available on the very first workbench. Still would be nice to know what's useful for what without having to find such a bench. PDA, when inspecting an item? Or did overlooked that function?

 

All in all, I think crafting should something that should stick to online RPG's, where it makes sense (grinding's part of the game). But in offline RPG's? It's only adding tedium that's not needed. Discuss!

[Nepenthe]

Well, I'll use the two examples you avoided, DAO and DA2. DAO was tedious with the recipes, reagents, inventory crowding etc. DA2 did it really well, making the reagents and recipes collectable items and moving the crafting to the home base... But nobody liked it, since apparently it was "dumbed down" (from walking around with an invisible chemistry lab, I guess).

 

So yeah, as a rule, not a fan of crafting (in any type of game).

[Walsingham]

Fair play you don't like it. That's up t oyou. But it seems daft to resent it for making you do stuff. 90% of a CRPG is busywork. Why not let you have the silver sowrd immediately? Because you'll like it more if you put effort into getting it. Being able to custom tailor it is pure gravy as it lets you choose the abilities you think are most useful and relevant to your style of play.

 

Yes you can end up dragging buttloads of crap around with you. The answer is prioritise and have a bit of goddamn self control. Unlike my housemate.

[Nepenthe]

The answer is prioritise and have a bit of goddamn self control. Unlike my housemate.

I get to do enough of that in real life! ;D

[Gorth]

I liked it in The Witcher, gave you a chance to stop and smell the flowers... quite literally

 

I don't remember if you could even buy potions in TW? Besides, it seems like it fit in with the lore, the setting and the actual story arc (their laboratory getting raided), so superficially it seemed an integral part of the game. Sure beat the heck out of planet scanning as a secundary activity/time filler.

[Nonek]

Usually i'm on the side of detesting most crafting, there are two notable exceptions: Ultima 7 (no idea why) and the original witcher which was not actually crafting just taking rare ores, runes and what have you to a smith and telling him to crack on with it. In the sequel when we have to gather every little component such as twine, iron and cloth I just felt like I was in bloody trade not a feared monsters bane, strangely enough the alchemy system they slimmed down by removing potion bases and extra ingredients which is a core feature of the profession, odd.

 

I'll have a pint busty serving wench.

Okay, i'll need hops, a barrel, a pint glass, water and....

You get the picture, daft.

[Orchomene]

You can also see crafting system as a two times reward : first you get the schematics then the components. This way, you can deliver rewards that means a real gap (final object is powerful), yet it doesn't unbalance the game too much (since you need the time to get the components).

Adding weight or countless numbers of components is depending on design choices and sometimes, it may becme a bit tedious, that's sure.

In Kotor2, it as well done : not tedious and rewarding for developping some skills. In the other cases, it may quickly become tedious. In FNV, I did not at all bother crafting ammunitions. In The Witcher 2, I've used a no weight mod to avoid the tedious part of it.

[Humanoid]

While there was some perverse fun in baking blood-bread in U7, I'm not in general a fan of crafting implementations of basically "bring X, Y and Z to location A" which essentially makes it no different to a quest where a blacksmith asks for various things and makes a ubersword for you anyway. It's not an improvement on the game experience unless there's something noteworthy about the key material, at which point that becomes the only relevant thing and the supplemental materials really serve no worth at all.

 

To whit: collecting special monster teeth to make extra rare shiny bullets is passable. Collecting lumps of lead to make regular bullets is a waste of time and effort. Skinning the Kayran to make special blingy armour is fine, collecting leather and oil to make hardened leather pieces is utterly dull. But given that, then there's precious little point creating a special interface for crafting when you can just have the blacksmith in town offer up a quest - "bringest me the tooth of a tarrasque and I shall make thee the most sharpiest knife thou hast ever seen."

[kalimeeri]

Crafting is a mini-game in itself, and it can be fun. I have spent much time in many games collecting the necessary ingredients to make a unique weapon or piece of armor that I couldn't get anywhere else. For instance, in NWN2, if you wanted the best armour or accessory in the game, you had to craft it--you simply couldn't find it, or buy it for any price. It wasn't absolutely necessary for survival, but it sure made battles a lot easier. TW1's potions are another example, in that the potions created were absolutely necessary in some battles. That kind of crafting system can sometimes become tedious on subsequent replays, and it's a rare game that gets it right ... but it does make the effort worthwhile.

 

With the crafting systems in the majority of rpgs, it simply isn't. I dislike--and won't use--crafting systems that provide you with useless products that you can't sell for more than a few septims/orens/credits ... if I'm already wearing better armor than I can make, what's the point? Likewise, crafting a superb witcher silver sword and then finding a better sword under a rock around the next corner makes me lose the will to live. That's broken, and it is just busywork (but at least in TW2 I made a good living off selling ingredients, lol). Still, if the system provides me even one useful item that I can make for a lesser price than I can buy it (repair hammers/whetstones for instance), I think the game is richer for it, and I'm in. The stripped-down Kotor2 style of swapping crafted customizations is effective, too.

[Enoch]

I see the prime usefulness of crafting as a way to accomodate the game's loot stream to differing character builds. If an RPG allows a wide-range of classes, skills, specializations, etc., the campaign almost has to be Monty-Hall-ish in order to ensure that every potential character build is going to find something useful (which is important not only for player gratification, but also for difficulty scaling as the player progresses).

 

Crafting systems offer a way to get around this: Award the player with more generic resources, or equipment that can be broken down into more generic resources, and let him or her fashion gear to suit their character(s).

 

Of course, in order for crafting to be an integral part of a game's loot balance, it has to be user-friendly enough that pretty much every player can be expected to use it. If it isn't, the testers will hit balance problems-- player who use the system will breeze through the game, while players who find it too involved will ignore it and get frustrated. IMO, both KotOR2 and NWN2 suffered from this problem. (Well, neither game was particularly hard to begin with, but the use of the crafting system did make an enormous difference in the difficulty experienced by players.)

 

 

Edit: one good point for The Witcher 1 is that they inform the player when selecting difficulty level that crafting can be optional on easy, but necessary on harder difficulties. That's one way to get around the "TL;DR" problem. But, given that variation in character builds in that game was quite limited, it doesn't really suit my criteria for a useful system, other than as character/world flavor. Better to either make it very user-friendly and expect it of everybody, or take it out entirely.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Enoch

[Slowtrain]

Crafting and repair systems both usually fall into the category of busywork with little point to the gameplay as I result I'm generally not too fond of them.

 

As long as crafting is an option, vs a requirement, then it's not too bad. I would prefer developers spend time elsewhere, like making new locations or monsters or whatnot, but I can ignore crafting and get on with the parts of the game I enjoy so it's generally not an overt negative. Repair systems tend to be much more aggravating since it's usually not an option.

 

Using a repair skill as part of quests and gameworld interactivity is great; using repair skills as a way to force gamers to enagage in the same repetitive activity over and over again, such as repairing weapons and armor, simply to justify having a repair skill in the game, not so much.

[Slowtrain]

I see the prime usefulness of crafting as a way to accomodate the game's loot stream to differing character builds. If an RPG allows a wide-range of classes, skills, specializations, etc., the campaign almost has to be Monty-Hall-ish in order to ensure that every potential character build is going to find something useful (which is important not only for player gratification, but also for difficulty scaling as the player progresses).

 

Crafting systems offer a way to get around this: Award the player with more generic resources, or equipment that can be broken down into more generic resources, and let him or her fashion gear to suit their character(s).

 

Of course, in order for crafting to be an integral part of a game's loot balance, it has to be user-friendly enough that pretty much every player can be expected to use it. If it isn't, the testers will hit balance problems-- player who use the system will breeze through the game, while players who find it too involved will ignore it and get frustrated. IMO, both KotOR2 and NWN2 suffered from this problem.

 

 

Edit: one good point for The Witcher 1 is that they inform the player when selecting difficulty level that crafting can be optional on easy, but necessary on harder difficulties. That's one way to get around the "TL;DR" problem. But, given that variation in character builds in that game was quite limited, it doesn't really suit my criteria for a useful system, other than as character/world flavor.

 

I'm highly opposed to the "create the uber-weapon through crafting syndrome".

 

Crafting should be a nice add-on/mini-game for gamers who want to use it, maybe add a little variety to appearance or whatnot. All powerful and important game items should simply be available in a finished state during the course of the game.

 

Unless, you're playing a crafting/smithing sim or something, I suppose.

[Lexx]

Loved the crafting system in Arcanum. It was simple, easy to understand and the interface looked good (could have had a list-feature, though). The basic recipes had two objects which you could find pretty often, the better recipes used stuff you could craft earlier, the advanced stuff was crafted out of two things you have crafted before, etc. Felt pretty smooth to me and I love to craft myself tech gear in the game, even if - most of the time - I never use it by myself.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Lexx

[Enoch]

I'm highly opposed to the "create the uber-weapon through crafting syndrome".

 

Crafting should be a nice add-on/mini-game for gamers who want to use it, maybe add a little variety to appearance or whatnot. All powerful and important game items should simply be available in a finished state during the course of the game.

 

Unless, you're playing a crafting/smithing sim or something, I suppose.

I wasn't really talking about the uber-items. More NWN2-style "We made character options for 18 different weapons specializations, so now we need to put +1 variants of all 18 in places where players will find them by level 5, +2 variants where players will find them by level 9, etc., etc."

 

Some kind of Diablo-style transferrable bonuses eliminate that problem.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I think crafting focused on creating supplemental consumables from commonly-found items and keyed off of skill prereqs = good. I also don't see the point to using crafting for making non-consumables, especially high-end weapons.

 

In an open world game, putting ingredients throughout the environment encourages the player to pay attention to the environment for things other than packs of raiders. Using skills as prereqs allows certain utility skills with infrequent use (e.g. Science) to have more application outside of scripted events. The only major thing I'd change about F:NV's crafting system would be to allow the player to pop up the crafting recipes (to check ingredients) anywhere.

[Hurlshort]

I find it relaxing to craft in some games, like a good break from killing and talking. None of these games compare to the hardcore crafting system in the MMO Vanguard. That was a crazy system. It took months to craft boats and houses in that thing, even if you were grinding heavily.

[Tale]

Only time I really care for it is when it gives you access to customized equipment. Like NWN2, it's how you could get Adamantine Daggers.

 

Just as an alternative to loot. Though the ideal for me is shops that have good variety, or even smiths that do custom orders so I don't have to haul around crafting supplies the entire game just in case it needs all 12 emeralds that exist or whatnot.

 

I guess that's my complaint against crafting systems. I can't trust them. If you find an ingredient for crafting, save it until the very end, because there's no telling if the infinity +1 sword requires all of any particular component. It provides a fair mastery system on subsequent runs, but I don't think it outweighs the distraction.

[Gizmo]

The only major thing I'd change about F:NV's crafting system would be to allow the player to pop up the crafting recipes (to check ingredients) anywhere.

Is that something that is possible to do with a user mod, yet be disabled from completing the item?

(Perhaps just removing the button? Is it possible to duplicate the menu, alter it and have that called from the Pipboy?)

Edited September 12, 2011 by Gizmo

[LadyCrimson]

Too timeconsuming. Rather could do something... I don't know... fun?

Problem with that statement is it shows how subjective fun is - there are lots of people who find crafting (and all that time spent) fun, as well as many who dislike it. So I don't have a problem with crafting being an option in the game as long as it's not absolutely needed to win the game...that is, finding a few pieces of something to put together to create a one-item at the endgame to defeat the boss is fine, but imo things like alchemy, campfire crafting, special weapons etc. should be optional. And if they are optional, and one doesn't like it, well, don't do it.

 

Crafting is a mini-game in itself, and it can be fun. I have spent much time in many games collecting the necessary ingredients to make a unique weapon or piece of armor that I couldn't get anywhere else

Yeah, same here.

For me it really just depends on the game. I remember in Morrowind (and in Might & Magic rpg's) I was all about the alchemy. For some reason I loved it - the way it was done and - also important - a feeling of being fairly clear what the results of such crafting efforts were going to be. But in Diablo2 (both in single-player & online since it was mostly the same) I didn't like crafting very much until they had all the recipes on a website so I could see what I liked and had to look for/do. I'm not personally into games telling you "here's a cube, put stuff in it & figure out what you can do with it" by months of random testing. I need a little more clear instructions than that to keep it from becoming insanely tedious/pointless.

 

In New Vegas, the cooking stuff...I never felt any incentive to even bother with it. The stuff you could make had nothing to do with how I personally like to play the game, thus didn't seem worth the trouble. I was already a "powerhouse" without crafting & didn't care about poisons or extra food or explosives etc. so it gave me no personally desired advantage to pick it over something else. But I can see if you did like those things, it could be an interesting way to add a different dimension to a playthrough. But I certainly don't think a rpg has to have crafting in order to be a rpg/a fun rpg.

[Gizmo]

I actually haven't played New Vegeas enough to have cooked... But I was under the impression that it served the exact same purpose in Arx Fatalis... IE. The more involved the meal, the more it would heal the PC.

 

Cooking was great in Arx Fatalis, and I assumed it would be similar in New Vegas.

[Nepenthe]

I think crafting focused on creating supplemental consumables from commonly-found items and keyed off of skill prereqs = good. I also don't see the point to using crafting for making non-consumables, especially high-end weapons.

That's funny, I was about to post an opinion that was almost the opposite of this. Like building artifacts from exotic materials (like in BG2 etc.), while even the concept of having to build consumables is terminally boring to me.

[Gizmo]

I think crafting focused on creating supplemental consumables from commonly-found items and keyed off of skill prereqs = good. I also don't see the point to using crafting for making non-consumables, especially high-end weapons.

That's funny, I was about to post an opinion that was almost the opposite of this. Like building artifacts from exotic materials (like in BG2 etc.), while even the concept of having to build consumables is terminally boring to me.

Have to think mechanics though... If you build one-of-a-kind weapons/items... You use the system only a few times during the game; If you build bullets... You use it throughout the game in every area.

 

BTW... I personally find the recipe [in NV] for Stimpacks to be absurd, and inaccurate. Xander root & Broc flower were used to make cheap tribal healing powder, not military grade nano-tech stimulants for use on the battlefield.

 

**Healing powder also gave you med-head, and dropped your Perception by 1 point per dose.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Gizmo

[LadyCrimson]

Oh yeah...I forgot about bullets in New Vegas. Never did that either. Since the regular bullets still killed everything just fine/with relative ease, I had no incentive to craft those in NV either.

[Hassat Hunter]

Nice discussion. I can definitely see why some people would like or dislike it. And yes, it's heavily depending on the game and it's implentation.

But it seems daft to resent it for making you do stuff. 90% of a CRPG is busywork.

But doesn't it annoy you when your reward for Fed-Ex work is even more Fed-Ex work? And not even a subsequent mission, but the fed-ex to actually get your reward from that quest.

Because you'll like it more if you put effort into getting it.

I did. And I can say, not a tiny bit. Even worse with the Krayan armor, which was replaced approximately 15 minutes after crafting by a better found armor.

Also, what more effort do I need to add then murdering a few Queen bosses? Rampaging around town boxes for ingredients?

Being able to custom tailor it is pure gravy as it lets you choose the abilities you think are most useful and relevant to your style of play.

I would agree with this. I have no objection to reagents or upgrading or adding in runes.

However with crafting it's mostly just "Add this, get that"... no custom anything.

Now if the end result depended on the ingredients used. Never *ever* seen such a system though.

Yes you can end up dragging buttloads of crap around with you. The answer is prioritise and have a bit of goddamn self control. Unlike my housemate.

You always notice if you do that, you just find out you need 20 wood and you just sold off the 80 you had. Always does.

Generally first time it's hard to prioritise since you would have no clue what might be useful in the future. Especially if like Witcher II Act 3 suddenly requires items only found in Act I, which can actually be used up in alchemy before that point.

That's just a horrible system.

You can also see crafting system as a two times reward : first you get the schematics then the components. This way, you can deliver rewards that means a real gap (final object is powerful), yet it doesn't unbalance the game too much (since you need the time to get the components).

This would work if properly implanted. But I sadly have to say I never found this. If mass-hoarding you usally have all requirements. If not it's not "the time you need" but more "search everywhere for components". If it requires several unique items, I don't see why it should be crafting instead of just a quest.

And most of all, to use my Witcher II example again, after you just crafted the item because you found the requirements it's discarded 15 minutes afterwards.

Though the ideal for me is shops that have good variety, or even smiths that do custom orders so I don't have to haul around crafting supplies the entire game just in case it needs all 12 emeralds that exist or whatnot.

My thoughts exactly. My inner completionist/pack rack usually bleeds having to sell all crafting ingredients... "what if"...

Currently playing Drakensang II and getting so much crap used for crafting it's not funny (which is what gave me the idea for this thread in the first place).

Not to mention when shopping for schematics it's impossible to check if the item is better than your current item. Same issue Witcher II had too. And pretty much every other crafting system I ever saw...

I guess that's my complaint against crafting systems. I can't trust them. If you find an ingredient for crafting, save it until the very end, because there's no telling if the infinity +1 sword requires all of any particular component. It provides a fair mastery system on subsequent runs, but I don't think it outweighs the distraction.

Yup. Pretty much my mind...

Problem with that statement is it shows how subjective fun is - there are lots of people who find crafting (and all that time spent) fun, as well as many who dislike it.

True. But since crafting becomes so much more prominent in modern RPG's, so much that none can be released without, I was kind of interested to see what people would like about it. The thread delivered so far .

For me it really just depends on the game. I remember in Morrowind (and in Might & Magic rpg's) I was all about the alchemy. For some reason I loved it - the way it was done and - also important - a feeling of being fairly clear what the results of such crafting efforts were going to be.

Same for me. I do like alchemy in, say, Morrowind, Gothic III, Divinity II the Witcher I.

I suppose the amount of crafting systems and ingredients is the main distraction. In Witcher I you just need to collect plants. In Witcher II all that other stuff too. Just too much. Also in Fallout: New Vegas the amount of miscilanious items to use in crafting might be the turnoff. In Drakensang? Boyery, blacksmiting, alchemy, each with about 40 unique items to craft stuff with? It's just too much.

I can understand such an incitrive system being in online RPG's. They probably should be even more expansive there. For the whole trade and such.

But why in offline RPG's they are now seen as pretty much required? That's still my question. Cause offline RPG's can be so much more than the grind for ingredients. And I feel story and gameplay does suffer to add in this grind. Could be me, but it makes me like modern RPG's less.

 

EDIT (you guys post FAST!):

That's funny, I was about to post an opinion that was almost the opposite of this. Like building artifacts from exotic materials (like in BG2 etc.), while even the concept of having to build consumables is terminally boring to me. sad.gif

BG2's method was great. But of course that updates items using unique items found in the game world. And not 10 generic X, 5 generic Y and 6 generic Z. I personally think that's much more fun, so wonder why not more games do it as such instead of with crafting...

Edited September 12, 2011 by Hassat Hunter

[Gizmo]

Oh yeah...I forgot about bullets in New Vegas. Never did that either. Since the regular bullets still killed everything just fine/with relative ease, I had no incentive to craft those in NV either.

In my case, I would break down pistol ammo for guns I did not have, and reload cartridges for the gun that I did have.