Dragon Age 2

[Thorton_AP]

I think you focused too much on the word "mitigation."

 

I think the idea is more that if you find armor with a higher armor value, it the armor penetration is so high for hostiles then what is the point of even having an armor value at all?

 

 

Shouldn't an armor with a higher value reduce damage somewhat, from a logical perspective?

 

 

EDIT: This is referring to rogues and mages obviously.

 

In other words, going from 30 armor to 40 armor results in no additional protection at all if every hostile has 50 armor penetration. At least, that's the way I was reading it.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Thorton_AP

[Hassat Hunter]

But Wizards shouldn't have armor in the first place (robes, gloves, hats instead of armor and helmets).

 

For Rogues, sure. But they either need to increase armor or get nimble instead. You know, difference in how you can make your chars.

 

It just seems easier to adapt an already made system to work okay than utterly replace it with something that can be as easily broken by introducing horrible unbalanced numbers, yet is untested in actual practice. But that could be me...

It worked rather fine in DA:O after all before they gave those insanely stat items per DLC.

[Tigranes]

Shouldn't mages be using magic for alternative forms of armour/defense?

[entrerix]

alright so im the reason why companies screw over customers.

 

my xbox died a few weeks ago. i just bought a new one (from walmart...) because they offered me a $50 gift card with purchase. ok, then i used the gift card to preorder dragon age 2. despite my earlier complaints about the preordering deadline for the game

 

so in one fell swoop I have:

1) rewarded microsoft for making a faulty console by purchasing a second one

2) bought something from walmart

3) rewarded EA by succumbing to their ridiculous pre-order mandate for DA 2.

 

when mass effect 3 requires a 6 month preorder to get the whole game, everyone can blame me, and I won't complain.

 

I'm going to continue being american now by eating some ice cream on my way to mcdonalds. then I will cry myself to sleep.

 

 

note: god damn I have guilt issues.

[Volourn]

"But Wizards shouldn't have armor in the first place"

 

Why?

 

 

"so in one fell swoop I have:

1) rewarded microsoft for making a faulty console by purchasing a second one

2) bought something from walmart

3) rewarded EA by succumbing to their ridiculous pre-order mandate for DA 2."

 

*shrug*

 

1. Isn't your 360 under warantee? heck, when my 360 did a red ring of death last year I got a new one and I didn't even have to show them a 'proof of purchase'.

 

2. Nothing wrong Walmart. And, no, i don't shiop there foten since I'd have to go to other side of city to get there.

 

3. Nothing wrong with EA's 'pre order mandate'.

[Meshugger]

Wait what, warriors can't dual wield in DA2? Did i understand this correctly? What was the point of that?

[MrBrown]

btw, I don't really remember how aggro worked in DAO, but what was so different about it, other than the prioritisation system discussed, from previous single player RPGs? How is WOW-style aggro different from, say, IE-style?

 

 

The main difference was abilities (about 4 in DA:O iirc, more in Awakening) that directly influenced threat-ratings, thus making enemies choose specific characters over others as targets. The gameplay idea is that you can in this way direct enemies to attack characters that can more easily shake off the attacks (the tanks) rather than the weaker ones.

 

The bigger issue is that, if you have no way to control which enemies attack what character, that means you are encouraged to make characters with similar ability to soak damage. And this takes away from the variance of characters design, as you encouraged to design characters the same way, at least in this aspect.

 

I can think of 3 ways to solve this:

1) Make stupid AI, that attacks the first enemy it sees, so players can solve this with easy positioning. I think the IE games had a lot of stupid AI like this, but there was several exceptions as well, even within a specific game I think.

2) Make combatant positioning count so that enemies can't attack any characters they see freely. The attacks of opportunity used NWN is one example, though I don't think it worked at all (it works fine in PnP).

3) Give the player abilities to influence what enemies attack directly. I'm not sure if WoW was the first one to do this, but it's probably the most famous.

[Gorth]

1) Make stupid AI, that attacks the first enemy it sees, so players can solve this with easy positioning. I think the IE games had a lot of stupid AI like this, but there was several exceptions as well, even within a specific game I think.

Yeah right... in a game where 3 out of 4 encounters (possibly exaggerated, didn't count them) are scripted and your party, despite foreshadowing and knowledge of what to come, happily discards any tactical advantage and marches up into the middle of a trap, surrounded be enemies >_

[Tigranes]

Alas, NWN2 OC was probably the worst I've played at that, outside of JRPGs. Your rogue would cleverly sneak past an entire floor of opponents and creak open a door, only for a cutscene dialogue to teleport your entire party in front of the boss.

[Maria Caliban]

ps

 

can somebody clarify our possible misconception re: dual-wield warriors. will warriors in da2 be able to acquire dw powhaz as they did in da:o?

 

Nope. PC warriors get two-handed and sword and board while rogues get dual wield and archery. Moreover, companions get one weapon tree. Isabela dual wields. You can't give her a bow or crossbow.

[Gromnir]

ps

 

can somebody clarify our possible misconception re: dual-wield warriors. will warriors in da2 be able to acquire dw powhaz as they did in da:o?

 

Nope. PC warriors get two-handed and sword and board while rogues get dual wield and archery. Moreover, companions get one weapon tree. Isabela dual wields. You can't give her a bow or crossbow.

 

makes perfect sense. if bio resorts to removal o' features to promote uniqueness of classes, then why not do the same with the jnpcs? at least they is being consistent with their silliness. am all in favor o' removing broken features, powhaz and classes, but that ain't what is happening in da2. developers is going with seemingly quickest and easiest approach to fixing da problems, and they shows very little concern for reason and logic. the paucity o' creativity and lack o' elegance these moves exhibit is disturbing. no doubt they will sell their changes as "innovative" much like they did with the dialogue wheel. a resource saving device that stretches vo resources and cuts down on need for writers to expand their dialogue trees becomes a praise-worthy feature? am genuine curious to see how bio will spin the changes they is making to da2?

 

...

 

bio has been claiming "revolutionary" 'bout their games for many years, but the truth is that bio games does very little that is genuine new. am not a huge proponent for "new" just for the sake o' being different, so bioware's tendency to use familiar conventions (but with higher competence and production values) did not bother us overmuch... though the puffery endemic in their claims o' innovation felt unnecessary. well, finally bio is breaking new ground. the developers o' virtual every other sequel we care to name tries to ADD to their initial offering: makes bigger and better... more, More, MORE! but bio bucks the trend and is going with less, Less, LESS. bio will finally achieve genuine innovation?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Thorton_AP]

a resource saving device that stretches vo resources and cuts down on need for writers to expand their dialogue trees becomes a praise-worthy feature? am genuine curious to see how bio will spin the changes they is making to da2?

 

This doesn't appear to be true for Mass Effect 2. I remember you mentioned this a while back and I experimented with the opening areas and part of the first act, and every time I picked a different conversation option, I had a unique line of VO (the conversation would often have a unique response for one line too, before usually consolidating into a common path that each dialogue option would eventually reach - a practice that existed long before the dialogue wheel) for that response.

 

Of the 3 primary responses (Northeast, East, and Southeast) which would progress the conversation forward. I suppose some of the context sensitive responses in the NW and SW (or the paragon/renegade lines) may have repeated some of the eastern responses but that would be... strange and surprising since those options often aren't even available without specific catalysts.

[HoonDing]

Yeah right... in a game where 3 out of 4 encounters (possibly exaggerated, didn't count them) are scripted and your party, despite foreshadowing and knowledge of what to come, happily discards any tactical advantage and marches up into the middle of a trap, surrounded be enemies

I liked the one in Denerim where pickpocketing an elfroot would trigger a random encounter where your party was surrounded by at least fifty guards after the five minute loading screen.

[Gromnir]

a resource saving device that stretches vo resources and cuts down on need for writers to expand their dialogue trees becomes a praise-worthy feature? am genuine curious to see how bio will spin the changes they is making to da2?

 

This doesn't appear to be true for Mass Effect 2. I remember you mentioned this a while back and I experimented with the opening areas and part of the first act, and every time I picked a different conversation option, I had a unique line of VO (the conversation would often have a unique response for one line too, before usually consolidating into a common path that each dialogue option would eventually reach - a practice that existed long before the dialogue wheel) for that response.

 

Of the 3 primary responses (Northeast, East, and Southeast) which would progress the conversation forward. I suppose some of the context sensitive responses in the NW and SW (or the paragon/renegade lines) may have repeated some of the eastern responses but that would be... strange and surprising since those options often aren't even available without specific catalysts.

 

am doubting you tested much, 'cause a poster at the bio boards looked into the same and showed examples (post lazarus station) that there were more than a little me2 dialogue duplication.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

Alas, NWN2 OC was probably the worst I've played at that, outside of JRPGs. Your rogue would cleverly sneak past an entire floor of opponents and creak open a door, only for a cutscene dialogue to teleport your entire party in front of the boss.

Actually that's every Obsidian game.

[Hassat Hunter]

Not just Obsidian. Use of the ME2 Turret Skill (Engineer) frequently let me skip combat situations for cutscenes...

 

Many a times in DA:O too.

[Hurlshort]

Am I the only one who thinks it is crazy to care about a gigantic dialogue tree? I don't play through these conversations over and over again to see what the different results will be.

[entrerix]

1. Isn't your 360 under warantee? heck, when my 360 did a red ring of death last year I got a new one and I didn't even have to show them a 'proof of purchase'.

 

 

the warranty expired after 3 years, my xbox lasted 4.

 

 

edit: and yes hurl it is crazy not to care about giant dialogue trees. Those are the things that provide much of the "roleplaying" experience, where you actually have choices about what to say and what to talk about when interacting with NPC's. without good dialogue trees you might as well be playing diablo (not that there is anything wrong with that, its just different)

 

also: you don't have to experience every single line, the purpose is that without those other lines existing, the dialogue is linear and you have no choices to make, it might as well be a cutscene. you can simply play the game once, but have the satisfaction of the result of the game being determined by your decisions, this has been key in roleplaying games for a very long time, Fallout 1 is considered a classic for many reasons, but one big one was the dialogue tree's and the amount of choices in dialogue you could make which would impact the game world by the ending.

Edited January 6, 2011 by entrerix

[Orogun01]

Am I the only one who thinks it is crazy to care about a gigantic dialogue tree? I don't play through these conversations over and over again to see what the different results will be.

Can't you understand that games are becoming more "artsy"? SquareEnix is going to make CG movies only and BW is moving onto the dating sims market.

[HoonDing]

I don't recall any BioWare game with a giant dialogue tree.

[Nepenthe]

Link by any chance?

 

For my own curiosity. I did go post lazarus station but since I was starting to get bored I ended up moving on.

 

How common do you think it is?

I didn't notice it in ME2, not in any of the seven playthroughs so far. Obviously this is mostly due to the fact that I haven't ABd different dialogue options to find examples of it, but my gut feeling is that it's a lot less common than it was in ME1. Still, I consider this a total non-issue in any case.

[Hurlshort]

edit: and yes hurl it is crazy not to care about giant dialogue trees. Those are the things that provide much of the "roleplaying" experience, where you actually have choices about what to say and what to talk about when interacting with NPC's. without good dialogue trees you might as well be playing diablo (not that there is anything wrong with that, its just different)

 

I didn't say no dialogue tree, I'm just not hung up on there being a huge tree where everything I say leads to a completely different conversation. It's extremely unrealistic, and it doesn't even sound that cool. Sure, some variety is great, multiple options is nice, and both ME's achieve that, but it sounds like some folks are getting hung up on this a bit too much.

[Gromnir]

Am I the only one who thinks it is crazy to care about a gigantic dialogue tree? I don't play through these conversations over and over again to see what the different results will be.

 

your lack o' desire to play through all the options is a pointless critique. honest. most people do not play through all the options, and rare is it that a hardcore gamer plays through all (or even most) of the options. and yeah, on a crpg development board you shoulds be the only person to thinks it is crazy to care 'bout the dimensions o' the dialogue trees... 'cause that is where many/most o' the meaningful CHOICES shoulds be taking place in a crpg. if you is unconcerned 'bout illusory dialogue choices in a crpg, then we thinks you is playing the wrong sorta games... but maybe you is just crazy 'nuff that it don't matter to you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps if you were just shooting strawman arguments off for $#%@s and giggles, then we apologize, but we didn't see anybody (anywhere) advocating gigantic dialogue trees, so we assumed you were inspired to comment based on the discussion regarding the me2 dialogue wheel.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Gromnir

[entrerix]

edit: and yes hurl it is crazy not to care about giant dialogue trees. Those are the things that provide much of the "roleplaying" experience, where you actually have choices about what to say and what to talk about when interacting with NPC's. without good dialogue trees you might as well be playing diablo (not that there is anything wrong with that, its just different)

 

I didn't say no dialogue tree, I'm just not hung up on there being a huge tree where everything I say leads to a completely different conversation. It's extremely unrealistic, and it doesn't even sound that cool. Sure, some variety is great, multiple options is nice, and both ME's achieve that, but it sounds like some folks are getting hung up on this a bit too much.

 

 

I think Planescape: Torment has the ideal amount of dialogue/tree/branching. so... yeah, I like lots of options in dialogue. but i do admit that I can imagine a game some day going too far with it, I just don't think that day will be arriving any time soon.

Edited January 6, 2011 by entrerix

[Maria Caliban]

 

Looks like we know who the Signature Edition character is, and he'll be available to everyone else as DLC.

 

So what does everyone think of him? http://dragonage.bioware.com/da2/addon/

 

Adventure alongside Sebastian Vael, an archer of noble birth, as he seeks revenge for the brutal murder of his family. Aid him in his quest, and direct his righteous wrath on your enemies. Sebastian is a full companion character, complete with his own series of side missions. Gain the prince

Edited January 7, 2011 by Maria Caliban