Piracy

[Volourn]

"this is true to an extent."

 

Not to an extent. That's all there is to it.

 

 

" but it doesn't change the fact that piracy isn't that big a deal"

 

yes, it is. Not as big other things but sitll a big deal.

 

 

", and it's certainly not theft. "

 

It is theft. theft = taking something that doesn't belong to you without permission which is exactly what piracy is. Therefore it *is* theft.

[Malcador]

What's wrong with video previews?

 

Poor substitute for playing as you're shown what's wanted to be shown.

[Purkake]

What's wrong with video previews?

 

Poor substitute for playing as you're shown what's wanted to be shown.

What about independent gameplay videos/reviews?

[sorophx]

What's wrong with video previews?

same thing as with previews in magazines. the world would be a better place without them (both magazines and previews)

taking something that doesn't belong to you without permission which is exactly what piracy is.

and we're back to "every download is a lost sale". it isn't.

 

seriously, I don't know how you guys live in Canada (pretty bad, if I were to believe the few of my friends from Edmonton), but in third-world countries you either pirate games or don't play games at all. and most people actually don't play (they can't afford to upgrade their PC or console every few years). I don't believe a game developer would rather have them never see his game, than know that they had a chance to appreciate his work without buying a copy. (and I don't give a rat's ass about publishers. I'd rather see them disappear completely from the scheme).

[Malcador]

What about independent gameplay videos/reviews?

 

Could be useful, the delay might matter. Course, as one mentioned earlier, better to not buy games until they've been out for a year, heh.

[pmp10]

seriously, I don't know how you guys live in Canada (pretty bad, if I were to believe the few of my friends from Edmonton), but in third-world countries you either pirate games or don't play games at all. and most people actually don't play (they can't afford to upgrade their PC or console every few years).

Why can't they just buy older/discounted games?

If they have troubles upgrading their platforms it should make sense to buy software more suited to the hardware they can afford.

[sorophx]

there are no older/discounted games. there are no new games. there are no distributors to begin with. there is no market. the only way is to order overseas. or download a cracked copy. guess which one they choose.

 

I'm not saying this is an excuse. but it makes it easier to understand why piracy exists in the first place. and it only proves that Wildfire guy's point.

[Thorton_AP]

The answer is simple -- the average pirate downloads a lot more games than the average customer buys. This means that even though games see that 80% of their copies are pirated, only 10% of their potential customers are pirates, which means they are losing at most 10% of their sales. If you'd like to see an example with math, read the following paragraph. If word problems make your eyes glaze over, then I advise you to skip it.

 

Let's consider the following scenario. Because game pirates can get apps for free, they download a couple new games every day -- or about 500 games in a year. On the other hand, normal gamers tend to play the same game for a longer time -- buying an average of 5 games per year. If this seems low to you, then consider that you are also reading a post on an indie game developer blog. You are probably more hardcore than the average gamer. Anyway, given these statistics, if the market consists of 10 million gamers, then there are 500 million pirated game copies, and 90 million purchased game copies, From the perspective of every individual game, 80% of its users are using pirated copies. However, only 10% of the market consists of pirates.

 

Am I the only person that finds this math to be somewhat of the "funny math?"

[alanschu]

I don't know how you guys live in Canada (pretty bad, if I were to believe the few of my friends from Edmonton)

 

As an Edmontonian I consider this statement to be absurd (and borderline baiting). I'd prefer it if we kept the potshots over where people live out of the equation, as I'm sure you're not a fan of people telling you that where you live is a "pretty bad" place to live.

[sorophx]

I'm sure you're not a fan of people telling you that where you live is a "pretty bad" place to live.

well, I don't need other people to tell me what I know already, if that's what you mean. as for Edmonton, I didn't mean that living in Edmonton life is hard. it can be hard in any country.

[Mamoulian War]

Mamoulian War, a pirate? I don't know... I lean towards it being very likely though .

 

Heh, that's a good one, not heard it for a long while

 

Yo know, I am from central Europe, My country was at some point considered as 3rd world aswell, so I do know how it is running around here

 

And yes I was long time ago when i was teenager a pirate... you know, there was no one selling here originals, so the only way how to get the game was getting it from pirates for aprox 5-10EUR... My first salary was worth of 100EUR/month (it's almost 15 years ago)... And i was still buying the games, but from pirates, because there was not a single shop who sold games here, and with THAT income, my bank would not allow me to get a Credit Card, so no chance of getting the game from abroad... most of the shops abroad did not ship any copyrighted material here anyway...

 

I am ashamed of it? no... You know... I payed for the games, It's just the publishers problem that they did not get my money, because they did not offered the games in my territory at all...

[Hurlshort]

this is true to an extent. but it doesn't change the fact that piracy isn't that big a deal, and it's certainly not theft.

 

This is why it is hard to understand your viewpoint. Not a big deal to whom? We've had two developers come in here and tell you otherwise. We've had a writer tell you it is a big deal to copy their work. These are people with invested interests telling you it is a big deal. So who are you talking about? It's not a big deal to the pirates? Of course it isn't, they have no invested interest.

 

Copyright infringement is also a crime. In many countries the penalties are identical to theft. I'm not sure why you are so hung up on that.

[Orogun01]

this is true to an extent. but it doesn't change the fact that piracy isn't that big a deal, and it's certainly not theft.

 

This is why it is hard to understand your viewpoint. Not a big deal to whom? We've had two developers come in here and tell you otherwise. We've had a writer tell you it is a big deal to copy their work. These are people with invested interests telling you it is a big deal. So who are you talking about? It's not a big deal to the pirates? Of course it isn't, they have no invested interest.

 

Copyright infringement is also a crime. In many countries the penalties are identical to theft. I'm not sure why you are so hung up on that.

"People with invested interests" Same as the people with invested interests on the middle east that dragged us to war?

 

The profit bias is obvious, they are the afflicted party here and not the judge. So far there hasn't been an impartial study of the subject, it's either done by groups supporting or against piracy. Is it a crime? Yeah Are the companies exaggerating their losses? Of course. Will people continue to pirate games in the future? Yeah.

Piracy is and it isn't a crime; technically it's the provider who steals the product but for some reason the customer is also held liable.

[Hurlshort]

"People with invested interests" Same as the people with invested interests on the middle east that dragged us to war?

 

Uh, what?

 

I don't think this is a hard concept. A person spends a bunch of their time creating something, they ask for payment for it. When you take it without paying, even if it is digital, how is that not completely wrong?

 

What does this have to do with the Middle East again?

[Volourn]

"and we're back to "every download is a lost sale". it isn't"

 

I didn't claim that so don't stuff up. i said, quite clearly, takinmg something that does NOT belong to you without permission is theft. That's EXACTLY what piracy is. That's why it's theft. Did id you know,. btw, that bother armed robbery and shop lifting are theft? Two different types but still theft. Piracy is just another type of theft.

 

 

"but in third-world countries you either pirate games or don't play games at all."

 

Boo hoo. Cry me a river. If you are living in suchn tough places, you have muych bigger worries then whether or not you are able to play video games.

 

" and most people actually don't play (they can't afford to upgrade their PC or console every few years)."

 

Tough ****. I cna't afford to upgrade my PC every couple of years either. Your point?

 

" I don't believe a game developer would rather have them never see his game, than know that they had a chance to appreciate his work without buying a copy."

 

Balony. One shopuld be rewarded for their work.

 

You know, thank god my customers at work don't feel the way you do... partake in my services but not pay for it. LMAO

 

 

" (and I don't give a rat's ass about publishers. I'd rather see them disappear completely from the scheme). "

 

Without publishers fewer people would be able to enjoy developers' works. There's a reason why publishers exist, and it's ebcause there's a hole to fill.

 

But, stop making excuses. Thieves steal games for one reason - selfishness - they wnat something and they don't want to pay for it. Period.

 

Trying to paint publishers as evil because they want to get paid for their work is insulting to all those employees who work their butts off. Cut out the publisher, and that's THOUSANDS of jobs lost. And, a lot less games to buy and a lot less games will be able to reach a wide audience which counters your silly point.

[Malcador]

As an Edmontonian I consider this statement to be absurd (and borderline baiting). I'd prefer it if we kept the potshots over where people live out of the equation, as I'm sure you're not a fan of people telling you that where you live is a "pretty bad" place to live.

 

 

Eh I dunno, I wouldn't want to live out west with all those rednecks. Here in the immigrant ghetto of TO it's much nicer.

 

If the penalties are identical, doesn't make the crimes equal or the same. It's not theft, unless you do something neat and steal every copy as well as destroy all copies of the source (that'd be a coup). But eh, is a quibble. It's funny how you people exhibit such anger and use such harsh terms about people that download games illegally of all things (not even Scene people, just leechers).

 

Still though, no one gets the point of piracy being huge in some places due to the legit market not even trying to be appealing, hm.

 

 

 

Yarr.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Malcador

[Orogun01]

"People with invested interests" Same as the people with invested interests on the middle east that dragged us to war?

 

Uh, what?

 

I don't think this is a hard concept. A person spends a bunch of their time creating something, they ask for payment for it. When you take it without paying, even if it is digital, how is that not completely wrong?

 

What does this have to do with the Middle East again?

Just a little red herring to illustrate my point.

 

My point it's that there is an obvious bias with invested interests, it's illegal there is no doubt of that. The only problem is determining how much piracy hurts the industry.

 

Hey, there is guys who steal millions of dollars and get away with just a slap on the wrist, just how wrong is downloading a pirated product? Should we send those guys to jail and make them pay for lost revenue?

[Hell Kitty]

Publishers and pirates are just like politicians who send us to war! Oh you sneaky devil you really got one over on old hurlshot! Red herring or just plain stupid? Creators/Publishers are biased in thinking piracy hurts the industry, and pirates are biased in thinking their actions have no negative effects. One guy puts a price on the work he has done, some other guy takes it for free. Only one of these guys is doing something wrong.

 

Never mind, I've now decided that if some guy once embezzled millions and got a light sentence, then it's ok for me to shoplift. If Trent Reznor is ok with me downloading mp3's of all his songs, Obsidian is probably cool with me pirating Fallout: New Vegas.

[~Di]

Yeah the thing is you've got artists like Di who see it as stealing, then you've got other artists like Cory Doctorow, Trent Reznor, etc who send the opposite message and encourage the free proliferation of their works and often pose economic or social reasons as their rational.

 

Interestingly, it is those people who are probably onto something: http://www.marketingvox.com/study-file-sha...ng-term-042837/

 

So the artistic community is certainly not united on the matter.

 

The publishing community is quite united. The Authors Guild sued Google, and got massive reparations for books they offered illegally online. And I suspect you'd be hard-pressed to find any game developer on the planet who loves piracy, because they just want to, like, have more peeps enjoy the product they've created even if they can't pay for it.

 

Of course the publishers are quite united, because they live out of another people creative work publishers != authors... here is some prime example how a free to download thing actually makes more money, than signing in with a publisher...

 

Publishers do not belong to The Authors Guild. Authors with specific publishing credits do. The Authors Guild sued Google on behalf of its members. As for publishers being the bad guys, there's no other way I could have personally typed up and sold 7 million copies of my books in 30 different languages without the publishing and distribution talents of my publishing house. Nowadays, anyone can slap a story on the internet and claim to be an "author". Writing hard-copy books is quite a bit different. And of course, publishers will only sign authors who they believe can write a work of fiction that will have mass appeal.

 

My publisher earned every penny of profit they might have made off me after the hundreds of thousands of dollars they put into printing, translating and distributing my work. That still doesn't mean that any clown with a scanner and a web site should have the right to rip me off.

[Orogun01]

Publishers and pirates are just like politicians who send us to war! Oh you sneaky devil you really got one over on old hurlshot! Red herring or just plain stupid? Creators/Publishers are biased in thinking piracy hurts the industry, and pirates are biased in thinking their actions have no negative effects. One guy puts a price on the work he has done, some other guy takes it for free. Only one of these guys is doing something wrong.

 

Never mind, I've now decided that if some guy once embezzled millions and got a light sentence, then it's ok for me to shoplift. If Trent Reznor is ok with me downloading mp3's of all his songs, Obsidian is probably cool with me pirating Fallout: New Vegas.

Gee, thanks for the name calling

 

I have never said that it was ok, it's just that there is both a lack of impartial opinions (and studies) and a lack of appropriate legislation for the crime. Unless we can appropriately determinate how is piracy hurting each industry we won't we able to reach a consensus on the course of action. Quite frankly I see no stopping to piracy, they should just seek alternative ways to counter it/

[Purkake]

Obviously book publishers earn their keep, IIRC the problem with them was that every country had different and incompatible royalties/publishing system which made ebooks and public domain books a nightmare.

 

Book publishers are not the same as game/music publishers.

[Hurlshort]

Some of these arguments are dripping in weak sauce here.

 

Unless we can appropriately determinate how is piracy hurting each industry we won't we able to reach a consensus on the course of action.

 

Why is this important? Are you trying to argue that it is a victimless crime? That isn't going to get you very far, you have a person creating content, and they are a victim when their work is pirated, regardless of profit/loss statements.

[Gorgon]

Who said that PC sales were also being hurt by that fact that no one is producing PC games anymore, it's all console ports.

 

Anyway I have been fuming about this for some time. Sofa gaming expectations, controls, levels of complexity.... they are just different from desktop ones.

[Gorth]

Still though, no one gets the point of piracy being huge in some places due to the legit market not even trying to be appealing, hm.

The stupidity in this thread is staggering. I blame my lack of a Ferrari on the legit market not accomodating me.

 

If you don't like the word 'stealing', try 'welcher', according to the dictionary it is more correct from a narrow viewpoint:

 

"Noun 1. welcher - someone who swindles you by not repaying a debt or wager"

Synonyms: Fraad, Scammer, Shammer, Swindler, Grifter, Gouger, etc.

 

However, 'stealing' fits better because you are stealing the most valuable commodity a human being has to offer, his/her time invested in something. They are never goiing to get it back when wasted the mites of the digital age.

 

Quite frankly I see no stopping to piracy, they should just seek alternative ways to counter it/

we are already seeing the first results of that. Wanna bet that Ubisofts measures and the built in DRM in Windows Vasta/7 is only the beginning? Waiting for the day that your game requires a retinal scan and saliva samples to confirm ownership before launching.

[Calax]

The fact of the matter is, Piracy will happen, and in the digital media section, you have to find a way to moderate between "You must have your gene sample on file with this game to play" and "Here, take it for free, just give us money if you can".

 

Everyone flips out when I say this, but Steam is possibly one of the better drm scheme currently active as it provides a bonus to the player (with the community equipment) as well as the DRM built in.

 

One thing I think nobody is really looking at is the abuses going the OTHER way, usually in the fact that due to the nature of the 'net, people can claim copywrite infringement with minimal connection to them and have something removed that disagrees with their views. This mainly pops up on youtube and I've seen it mostly in videos relating to Intelligent design, creationism and evolution (with false DMCA filings being used to remove an opposing view or rebuttal).

 

This has also been used by entertainment companies to remove web reviews of their media from the 'net in order to prevent it from being ripped apart (most sterling example is Tommy Weisu taking down any and all videos reviews of his only movie "The Room"). The problem here is that it's REALLY easy to file the claim, but bloody hard to get it removed.

 

Problem with the users is that they want everything to be on the honor system, problem with publishers is that (being businessmen) they'd want to charge you for breathing if they could. And trying to strike a balance in the 'net (which is barely able to be regulated, much less moderated) is going to be akin to trying to get a cat to stop snubbing it's owner.