Fallout: New Vegas

[Ausir]

Yeah, but given that this backstory for Caesar in VB was written by Chris Avellone and J.E. Sawyer, I'm pretty sure it will stay that way in FNV too.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Hey so it's red shield discussion tyme.

 

*~

 

Imagine that there is an amount of damage that armor directly subtracts from damage... a "threshold" of damage, if you will. While a small percentage of damage may get through even the thickest armor, damage threshold can effectively neutralize a lot of small arms. Fallout 1 and 2 used numerical feedback to let the player know when their weapons weren't doing any damage. In F3 and F:NV, the player only sees enemy health meters that represent a percentage of total health rather than an exact value. This makes it difficult to tell how effective an enemy's armor is (as opposed to the target simply having a ton of health). In F:NV, the red shield appears next to a target's health meter when you hit it for damage that is equal to or less than the target's damage threshold. A HUD-colored shield appears next to the player's health meter when the player is hit for damage equal to or less than the player's damage threshold.

 

High RoF weapons typically have a low DAM, high DPS. E.g. 10mm SMG. Low RoF weapons are the opposite. E.g. Hunting Rifle. F:NV's Pip-Boy Weapons tab now cross-fades between DAM and DPS so the player can make more tactical choices about what weapon to use in any given circumstance. Having both of these values visible has also allowed us to revise the calculation of DAM/DPS values to be less abstract and more accurate. Using the weapons previously listed, a 10mm SMG would be best against unarmored/lightly armored targets at close range. The Hunting Rifle is ideal against armored targets at long range. But if the player wants to get fiddly with numbers, the Cowboy Repeater (mentioned in the Escapist preview) is better than either weapon against unarmored/lightly armored targets at long range since it is accurate, has a decent DAM and a better DPS than the Hunting Rifle. Add ammo subtypes and mods into the mix and there are a lot of ways to optimize the gear you carry and use.

[Slowtrain]

Sounds good. It's fiddly. I like fiddly.

 

 

Surprisingly perhaps, the red shield doesn't bother me. It's a feedback device that helps with the abstraction of the combat. Not a problem.

[Nemo0071]

F:NV's Pip-Boy Weapons tab now cross-fades between DAM and DPS so the player can make more tactical choices about what weapon to use in any given circumstance.

Love it. Will prevent a lot of confusion on my part. A very small yet very important tweak in FO3's inventory system imo.

 

 

Add ammo subtypes and mods into the mix and there are a lot of ways to optimize the gear you carry and use.

Ammo subtypes as in hollow point / armor piercing etc.? I didn't know they were back...

 

This keeps gettin' better and better...

[Enoch]

Thanks, Josh. So are armor damage thresholds uniform, or are there different DTs for different damage types (ballistic, melee, fire/plasma, laser, electric/pulse, etc.)?

[Gromnir]

In F:NV, the red shield appears next to a target's health meter when you hit it for damage that is equal to or less than the target's damage threshold. A HUD-colored shield appears next to the player's health meter when the player is hit for damage equal to or less than the player's damage threshold.

 

sounds... crude. such a scheme is indeed a better feedback feature than forcing the player to squint at a foe's health meter and guess whether lack o' visible health meter movement during combat is due to the strength o' the foe's armour or is resulting from the critter's extreme large pool o' health. red shield is an improvement, but a small one... 'less DR is equal crude. enoch's question is a valid one: is dr uniform for all damage types? does game actual recognize damage types? if not, then red shield is sufficient, but lame as an aspect o' combat is simplified to the point o' stoopidity. if damage types is varied and amours provide equally varied protections (e.g. tesla armour providing relative superior protection to energy weapons,) then player is still forced to trial an error his way to enlightenment, no?

 

better than nothing... and no doubt w/i a month o' the game's release, a nerdling will create a comprehensive armour/damage chart and post it on a fo:nv wiki thus dispelling any sorta unnecessary dr obfuscation.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

You know what type of damage your weapon is doing, though. If you see a red shield you can assume that the weapon and/or ammo you are using now won't get past its DR. What exactly are you suggesting that is less 'obfuscating'? That the game should tell you how much damage is absorbed, and what type? Not that big a difference, and the FO3 GUI can't really handle detailed textual information, so we'd have something messy like separate icons for separate DR types.

[Gromnir]

You know what type of damage your weapon is doing, though. If you see a red shield you can assume that the weapon and/or ammo you are using now won't get past its DR. What exactly are you suggesting that is less 'obfuscating'? That the game should tell you how much damage is absorbed, and what type? Not that big a difference, and the FO3 GUI can't really handle detailed textual information, so we'd have something messy like separate icons for separate DR types.

 

 

dr is not typical Yes v. No. maybe you still damage folks in power armour when using your trusty hunting rifle and no red shield appears 'cause the damage done is greater than the damage threshold o' the armour. however, chances are that your hunting rifle ain't doing full potential damage neither. damage Reduction... key word is kinda obvious. but red shield not tells you how effective dr is... only tells you if the dr of foe is significant enough that they complete shrug off the damage dealt.

 

better than nothing, but not great.

 

as for messy... HA! not need separate icons. you already got the shield thingie, so why not add a few color variations to show degree o' dr effectiveness? add a couple extra colors is messy?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[jero cvmi]

the red shield appears next to a target's health meter when you hit it for damage that is equal to or less than the target's damage threshold. A HUD-colored shield appears next to the player's health meter when the player is hit for damage equal to or less than the player's damage threshold.

...

Pip-Boy Weapons tab now cross-fades between DAM and DPS so the player can make more tactical choices about what weapon to use in any given circumstance.

ah, a small tweak for the GUI, a large step up in the gameplay. i think it's elagant and classy.

Edited May 2, 2010 by jero cvmi

[Tigranes]

Alright Grom, I got what you're saying now.

 

as for messy... HA! not need separate icons. you already got the shield thingie, so why not add a few color variations to show degree o' dr effectiveness? add a couple extra colors is messy?

 

True, I think it's pretty damn trivial in FO3 / FNV though. In a first-person, relatively fast-paced shooter game you don't really need to know the gradations of damage reduction that are occuring with this particular enemy, which will most likely kill you or be killed within the next 20 seconds. It's not like a turn-based fantasy RPG where you have dozens of different elements to try out, enemies have buffs or 5000 health points.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Damage threshold return confirmed, huh? Good. Hope this means combat will need a little bit of strategy and planning this time.

[Slowtrain]

Josh,

 

Does the DT remain constant even as the armor suffers damage? Or does the DT decline similar to the DR as the armor loses HP?

 

Also, please, maybe just a hint if you guys have changed the repair system into something less odious.

 

Please?

[Starwars]

This is really great and will likely be really good news for the combat gameplay.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Thank the lord for A) being able to get into the game quickly, skipping tutorial stuff and B) the addition of iron sights.

 

Really don't like this though:

When targeting some of the stronger units in New Vegas, you might see a red shield appear on the screen. That would be your indication to switch weapons to something more effective. Perhaps a Plasma Caster would be called for.

 

Hope that can be turned off. I wonder what they mean by that there are new camera modes during combat, or if that is just referring to being able to use the iron sights.

 

yeah. i'd hope a consideration for hard-core mode will allow this option to be turned off. because while i like what Sawyer says here:

 

Hey so it's red shield discussion tyme.

 

*~

 

Imagine that there is an amount of damage that armor directly subtracts from damage... a "threshold" of damage, if you will. While a small percentage of damage may get through even the thickest armor, damage threshold can effectively neutralize a lot of small arms. Fallout 1 and 2 used numerical feedback to let the player know when their weapons weren't doing any damage. In F3 and F:NV, the player only sees enemy health meters that represent a percentage of total health rather than an exact value. This makes it difficult to tell how effective an enemy's armor is (as opposed to the target simply having a ton of health). In F:NV, the red shield appears next to a target's health meter when you hit it for damage that is equal to or less than the target's damage threshold. A HUD-colored shield appears next to the player's health meter when the player is hit for damage equal to or less than the player's damage threshold.

 

High RoF weapons typically have a low DAM, high DPS. E.g. 10mm SMG. Low RoF weapons are the opposite. E.g. Hunting Rifle. F:NV's Pip-Boy Weapons tab now cross-fades between DAM and DPS so the player can make more tactical choices about what weapon to use in any given circumstance. Having both of these values visible has also allowed us to revise the calculation of DAM/DPS values to be less abstract and more accurate. Using the weapons previously listed, a 10mm SMG would be best against unarmored/lightly armored targets at close range. The Hunting Rifle is ideal against armored targets at long range. But if the player wants to get fiddly with numbers, the Cowboy Repeater (mentioned in the Escapist preview) is better than either weapon against unarmored/lightly armored targets at long range since it is accurate, has a decent DAM and a better DPS than the Hunting Rifle. Add ammo subtypes and mods into the mix and there are a lot of ways to optimize the gear you carry and use.

 

i think i'd get the impression that my weapon isn't effective if the enemy simply isn't dying. admittedly, i went from raging to "meh, whatevs" after his explanation though. at first i was like "another ****ing consolized hand-holding goddamn mother****ing etc etc".

[HoonDing]

I just pull out the Fat Man if the enemy isn't dying.

[TwinkieGorilla]

I just pull out the Fat Man if the enemy isn't dying.

 

[Slowtrain]

i think i'd get the impression that my weapon isn't effective if the enemy simply isn't dying. admittedly, i went from raging to "meh, whatevs" after his explanation though. at first i was like "another ****ing consolized hand-holding goddamn mother****ing etc etc".

 

 

Look at it this though: many games have soem sort of feedback indicator to help ther player gauge the successfulness of their attacks.

 

In FO1 and 2 , you had the pip boy screen which would give you info like target hit for no damage etc.

 

 

 

Video game combat is usually an abstraction of real world combat and as such real world "rules" don't apply. So games need to give some sort of indicator on how the player character is doing with their attacks while under that particular game's system of abstraction.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Look at it this though: many games have soem sort of feedback indicator to help ther player gauge the successfulness of their attacks.

 

In FO1 and 2 , you had the pip boy screen which would give you info like target hit for no damage etc.

 

 

 

Video game combat is usually an abstraction of real world combat and as such real world "rules" don't apply. So games need to give some sort of indicator on how the player character is doing with their attacks while under that particular game's system of abstraction.

 

oh, i know. like i said...my "before" and "after" impression of the red shield changed after Sawyer's explanation. it was a good explanation, and i love damage threshold (not to mention actually bringing back real Fallout rpg mechanics) but still...i dunno. the text box was like the dungeon master telling you what happened after you did something. the red shield is saying "hint: try something else!" i know it's a fine line, and it's more of an aesthetic and it's probably much more difficult to make an FPS feel like an RPG...but meh. this is what happens when you combine a spoon with a fork. you get a goddamn spork.

[Gorgon]

In Clear Sky I took out a Hind with a sub-machine gun, which I thought was pretty damn silly. I imagine shooting a BB gun at a super mutant would be about the same. It's not something I feel strongly about either way though.

[Gromnir]

Thank the lord for A) being able to get into the game quickly, skipping tutorial stuff and B) the addition of iron sights.

 

Really don't like this though:

When targeting some of the stronger units in New Vegas, you might see a red shield appear on the screen. That would be your indication to switch weapons to something more effective. Perhaps a Plasma Caster would be called for.

 

Hope that can be turned off. I wonder what they mean by that there are new camera modes during combat, or if that is just referring to being able to use the iron sights.

 

yeah. i'd hope a consideration for hard-core mode will allow this option to be turned off. because while i like what Sawyer says here:

 

Hey so it's red shield discussion tyme.

 

*~

 

Imagine that there is an amount of damage that armor directly subtracts from damage... a "threshold" of damage, if you will. While a small percentage of damage may get through even the thickest armor, damage threshold can effectively neutralize a lot of small arms. Fallout 1 and 2 used numerical feedback to let the player know when their weapons weren't doing any damage. In F3 and F:NV, the player only sees enemy health meters that represent a percentage of total health rather than an exact value. This makes it difficult to tell how effective an enemy's armor is (as opposed to the target simply having a ton of health). In F:NV, the red shield appears next to a target's health meter when you hit it for damage that is equal to or less than the target's damage threshold. A HUD-colored shield appears next to the player's health meter when the player is hit for damage equal to or less than the player's damage threshold.

 

High RoF weapons typically have a low DAM, high DPS. E.g. 10mm SMG. Low RoF weapons are the opposite. E.g. Hunting Rifle. F:NV's Pip-Boy Weapons tab now cross-fades between DAM and DPS so the player can make more tactical choices about what weapon to use in any given circumstance. Having both of these values visible has also allowed us to revise the calculation of DAM/DPS values to be less abstract and more accurate. Using the weapons previously listed, a 10mm SMG would be best against unarmored/lightly armored targets at close range. The Hunting Rifle is ideal against armored targets at long range. But if the player wants to get fiddly with numbers, the Cowboy Repeater (mentioned in the Escapist preview) is better than either weapon against unarmored/lightly armored targets at long range since it is accurate, has a decent DAM and a better DPS than the Hunting Rifle. Add ammo subtypes and mods into the mix and there are a lot of ways to optimize the gear you carry and use.

 

i think i'd get the impression that my weapon isn't effective if the enemy simply isn't dying. admittedly, i went from raging to "meh, whatevs" after his explanation though. at first i was like "another ****ing consolized hand-holding goddamn mother****ing etc etc".

 

sooooo you thought red shield were "consolized hand-holding" right up until josh reminded you that the fo1 hand-holding were far more detailed.

 

*chuckle*

 

is probable a lesson for developers to couch descriptions of any fo3 feature in language such that one may easily draw parallels to the original fo incarnation.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[TwinkieGorilla]

sooooo you thought red shield were "consolized hand-holding" right up until josh reminded you that the fo1 hand-holding were far more detailed.

 

um. no. reading comprehension fail. do not pass go. do not collect $200.

[Gromnir]

sooooo you thought red shield were "consolized hand-holding" right up until josh reminded you that the fo1 hand-holding were far more detailed.

 

um. no. reading comprehension fail. do not pass go. do not collect $200.

 

no need for you to be dishonest. fibbing = fail.

 

in any event, the red shield is a minor (albeit consolized) improvement over "the enemy simply isn't dying" method espoused by twink as we will at least be made aware when dr complete negates damage. enoch suggestion of actual animation feedback would be the ideal, but am not thinking that such an approach is practical given the resource limitations inherent in game development.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sannom]

Is the red shield really necessary? At first, I thought that it would indicate to the player that his damage-type wasn't really effective against this enemy, but apparently it only appears when the weapon is really useless and doesn't do any damage. Shouldn't that be obvious to the player even with the problem "Is my weapon ineffective or does he have a huge amount of HP?"?

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

You know other shooters just have the blood effect removed when you're not doing any damage to a target? Or they play a blocking sound with no blood but a small puff of smoke or sparks. Sounds better than whatever this red shield looks like.

[Gromnir]

as noted by josh earlier, red shield is of very limited practical usefulness as it simply indicates whether a seeming lack of movement on enemy health meter is due to dr or an overwhelming pool of health.

 

HA! Good Fun!