Mass Effect 2

[Raithe]

It's nice that all the experienced professional soldier types also come with an identical personality.

 

If you're writing a story you need to give your characters some depth, "generic space marine" just isn't going to cut it.

 

Well I don't class Shepherd as "generic space marine". But I do agree with depth needed in the majority of professional soldier type characters. In a lot of ways you get presented with the basic "image" of a marine and how you play a game with them is what makes them non-generic. Unless you have a detailed "origin" system for them, it makes it very difficult to create a backstory that appeals to the majority of gamers while also being "neutral" enough to fit with whatever the personal gameplay style and choices of those gamers as well...

 

With ME, you at least had the partial nod to crafting the general background to how you wanted to percieve the protagonist, and then play the protagonist in that style for the rest of the game..

 

And going with the military route in sci-fi can make a lot of sense storywise. I mean, how many people have access to large amounts of weaponry, advanced tech starships and such ? While it can be the "simple" way of setting up a storyline, being the marine ordered into a situation that explodes into something totally new and that you then have to deal with...

[Purkake]

I wasn't talking about ME specifically. While Shepard was somewhat generic, I was mostly happy with the presentation.

 

When speaking of the main character the ever-present problem of you vs your character inevitably arises. While I like to play established characters, apparently most other people don't and having a super blank slate as your PC is pretty annoying at times.

[Darth Drabek]

My point is that you don't need to inflate the stakes to cosmic levels to make the story feel epic. With decent writing a personal story will be easier to relate to and be much more gripping and satisfying than fighting for some abstract goal of cosmic proportions. Not many developers understand this or at least don't have enough initiative(or freedom from publishers) to stray from the norm.

 

I hear ya; I really do. But that isn't the kind of game BioWare is trying to make. You're talking about indie films; they're talking about blockbusters.

 

They're different, sure, but it's OK to like both.

 

...

 

 

Regarding Enoch's proposed "everyone sacrificed for the greater good" ending: I know the developers have said it's a possibility, but I can't see how they would implement it. Who becomes the PC if Shepard dies? Conrad Verner?

 

If you import a game in which Shep sacrifices himself -- which I think should be an option -- that character should be gone. And I don't think Bio will do that.

[Raithe]

I wasn't talking about ME specifically. While Shepard was somewhat generic, I was mostly happy with the presentation.

 

When speaking of the main character the ever-present problem of you vs your character inevitably arises. While I like to play established characters, apparently most other people don't and having a super blank slate as your PC is pretty annoying at times.

 

It's mostly one of those areas that's all swings and roundabouts. I like detailed characters to work with, but I don't always like getting straightjacketed into the style of play that those backgrounds would suggest. That's where games that allow you some say to develop the background and then actually show some reference to it within the game are the ones I found I've enjoyed a lot.

 

A game that lets you choose a heavily detailed character background.. but then has nada to show for it within the game (apart from maybe potential game mechanic bonuses) isn't particularly great to my mind. It's one of the things that disapointed me in DA, they harped on the wonders of their origins but then it didn't really feel that beyond a few set pieces, the rest of the world actually noted any of it. I mean, playing through the origins was nice, it provided a lot of background feeling to your character..but then once you were past it and in the Grey Wardens.. >shrugs< Sure, Mass Effect didn't really provide much emphasis on the whole Earthborn/Colonist/Spacer backgrounds, but it still actually felt like it was there. Maybe that's just because there wasn't all the pre-game hype on that aspect to judge it against.

 

I'm more just verbalising my thoughts on it then arguing any point with you over it

[Purkake]

@Darth: There's nothing stopping a "blockbuster" from having a story where you don't save the world. It's not some crazy innovation, how many movies are about saving the world? Even most of the popcorn movies aren't about that.

 

As for the end, IIRC there will be a canon ending where Shep lives and they will use that as the default for ME3.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Purkake

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's probably because the developers feel they need to stroke the pathetic little egos of social reject gamers.

[Volourn]

"I think I'd be silenced for eternity if they allowed me not to save the world once, with REM's "Its the end of the world as we know it...", playing in the background."

 

Been there done that. It's called JE.

[Purkake]

I didn't think anyone actually got to the end of that.

 

Was it a thing of pristine wonder on which no mortal had ever laid eyes upon?

[RPGmasterBoo]

Been there done that. It's called JE.

 

Sorry I must have blinked and missed it.

[Raithe]

Hey, I know I'm in the minority but I mostly enjoyed JE. There were flaws, but the storyline ran nicely, and the main bad turned out to be a magnificent bastard par excellence once all was revealed. Even if some of the game mechanics were a bit clunky.

 

And it did handle the whole "post world saving quest" future histories of your character and the various companions depending on how you played the game quite nicely.

 

Then there's always the bonus of John Cleese voicing a "he's so awful he's kind of amusing" npc for a short section.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Raithe

[RPGmasterBoo]

It was too short to form an impression.

 

Always yanking you about places, then when you really start getting into it - you get to see the credits roll.

 

But since I got it in a tin box for 5 euro I can't complain.

Edited January 21, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Killian Kalthorne]

Jade Empire was a fun little romp.

[Meshugger]

You should not try encapsule what is intelligent, complex, fun or entertaining into artificial definitions that only exists in your head.

 

Why not? It's what everyone else does. What is fun and entertaining depends on the individual. That is, it exists only in their head.

 

Sorry, must be the language barrier or something. What i was trying to say is that you shouldn't label what is truly entertaining by adding nonsense labels on what can entertain you or not. It is simply contraproductive in the long run, since you will not discover anything new or interesting that way.

 

Entertainment is not about simple laughs, it is much more than that.

 

Entertainment can be many things, and "simple laughs" is one of them. An entertainment product that succeeds in providing mindless fun is better than one that tries and fails to offer something more.

 

Of course it can, i did not claim otherwise, i was however saying that they should not be mutually exclusive. Neither is does the second sentence say anything, unless we are talking about financial gain for company that produces the product.

 

The rest of your post can be summed up as: Hey man, like, open your mind. You'll, like, totally learn and appreciate stuff.

 

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with that now, isn't there? Unless you tried to do a witty remark that my point bears the same weight as of a drugged up hippie.

[Starwars]

Think Jade Empire is Biowares most underappreciated game for sure. I don't think the length was a weakness at all. But, I don't think it came even close to realizing the great potential of the setting or the combat system (a great idea for an action-RPG but not challenging enough). It could've done well to shake off some of "KOTOR-ness" as well.

 

A game set in the Jade Empire setting, with the political machinations of Dragon Age inserted into it would've *really* cool. I hope they'll return to the setting someday.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Think Jade Empire is Biowares most underappreciated game for sure. I don't think the length was a weakness at all. But, I don't think it came even close to realizing the great potential of the setting or the combat system (a great idea for an action-RPG but not challenging enough). It could've done well to shake off some of "KOTOR-ness" as well.

 

A game set in the Jade Empire setting, with the political machinations of Dragon Age inserted into it would've *really* cool. I hope they'll return to the setting someday.

 

You're right, the overall gameplay was stupidity incarnate. Technically speaking Diablo had more options.

 

Still the art direction was great, some of the characters were amusing and the plot wasn't too bad - so suffering through the gameplay wasn't all that difficult.

 

I suppose I enjoyed it more than ME overall, because of the story.

[Raithe]

It did seem that from the cheap seats, that a lot of people thought the story/plot was confused... which has always made me wonder how many people picked up on what a manipulative bastard the big bad was..

 

But ah well, it wasn't overlong, you could run through it in a single day which isn't the norm for those dedicated rpg games but it did have a fun time. And the mythic asian china made a good change from the usual elves and orcs

 

It was also the one where if the male protagonist didn't make a choice between the two female romance options.. they'd both turn up on the "night before everyone thinks they might die" compared to how bio normally makes romances an either/or choice.

[Oner]

I don't understand why people rip on ME for being so unabashedly epic, yet speak in hushed reverential tones of the fabled Baldur's Gate series. Look, I loved those games too, but SoA and ToB pretty much define the term "epic adventure." If you're sick of saving the world/galaxy, go play Shenmue and move pallets with a forklift for three hours.

I rip Bio for the unabashed fan wanking they do. Someday they're just going to crack and every NPC line will be: You, the main character and that guy playing you are awesome. You wanna see my titties while stuff explodes in the background and dramatic wind blows?

Their trailers are about screaming THIS IS EPIC **** at you until you agree.

They're like the Michael Bay of video games or something.

 

 

I think Starcraft is like the only game to avoid that cliche.

The save the galaxy cliche?

 

 

My point is that you don't need to inflate the stakes to cosmic levels to make the story feel epic. With decent writing a personal story will be easier to relate to and be much more gripping and satisfying than fighting for some abstract goal of cosmic proportions. Not many developers understand this or at least don't have enough initiative(or freedom from publishers) to stray from the norm.

Isn't BG a heroic fantasy with epic proportions? ME is an epic fantasy (well, sci-fi, but you get the idea)space opera with huge armies clashing (in the end at least) to defeat the galaxy destroying ancient menace.

[Darth Drabek]

I think Jade Empire gets a bad rap.

 

Usually even the detractors agree that the art design was great -- many of the game's areas were stunning. I thought the combat was fun, too. It can get repetitive, sure, but that's when you try using some finesse and busting out some of those harmonic combos.

 

I don't have any issues with the story, but the NPCs weren't exactly the most original lot I've ever adventured with, that's for sure. The Mysterious Loner, the Ingenue, the Femme Fatale, and a motley crew of Comic Relievers all join you on your quest.

 

Some of the "closed fist" choices scattered throughout the game make you feel like a truly terrible person. Much more than other Bio games, in my opinion. Still, it's worth the guilt just to see Dawn Star's transformation from wishy-washy boring good girl to a much more interesting NPC.

[Volourn]

JE > BG

 

Story, combat, role-playing, , C&C, graphics, music, artwork, characters, writing, EVERYTHING.

 

The only thing that BG did better was that it had dwarves.

[RPGmasterBoo]

The save the galaxy cliche?

 

Yes, at least concerning the outcome of the original campaign.

I rip Bio for the unabashed fan wanking they do. Someday they're just going to crack and every NPC line will be: You, the main character and that guy playing you are awesome. You wanna see my titties while stuff explodes in the background and dramatic wind blows?

Their trailers are about screaming THIS IS EPIC **** at you until you agree.

They're like the Michael Bay of video games or something.

 

They didn't do it so much before, I dunno what came over them. You'll see anyway.

 

@Volo: you keep tearing a hole in the universe by repeating that nonsense

Edited January 21, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Pop]

I didn't think Jade Empire's visual design was that good, honestly. Most of the blame falls on the engine, which was never all that impressive. Besides that it just never gets that exotic. It sure is bright though.

 

Pretty much everything in the game was subpar. The character mechanics were awful and there was a minimum of elements that could differentiate one character build from another. The Demon Girl (Wildflower? Something like that) was a nice idea. Besides that, the characters were unremarkable. I liked NWN more than JE.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Pop

[Oner]

The save the galaxy cliche?

Yes, at least concerning the outcome of the original campaign.

Quite true.

 

They didn't do it so much before, I dunno what came over them. You'll see anyway.

Oh I know.

[Pidesco]

JE's combat wasn't just bad it was broken enough as to become pointless filler. And when the game's core gameplay doesn't work, it can't really be a good game.

[Volourn]

"@Volo: you keep tearing a hole in the universe by repeating that nonsense "

 

Sorry.. I just moved passed the basis of BG. It was awesome when you are a kiddie; but for people have matured (well.. aged heh since if you post on the nets you aren't mature), it simply is the basis of basic rpgs. BG is a literal dumbing down of 2E D&D. The characters don't change at all except a handful much later in BG2/TOB. None do in BG1. You cna't even can't the wussy elf (who I loved btw) to stop acting like a gutless funnyman despite everything he faces while in the party. Outside of the choice between Minsc and his g/f with that pansy shemale there is no real C&C to speak of except *maybe* 1 or 2 situations.

 

All BIO RPGS since - be it JE, ME, KOTOR (BIO's worst game I've played), NWN, and DA are all superior RPGs. Bg has lost its lustre for me.

 

 

"pointless filler."

 

JE had the least filler - pointless or otherwise - of all BIO games. That's why, coincidentally, it's the shortest. It doesn't have spamming combat, silly random travel over empty areas, or silly inventory matrix, and other time wassters. It really was all about action - whether thata ction was combat or dialogue, it didn't matter.

 

It was awesome. Unlike BG.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Volourn

[Kaftan Barlast]

Oh crap.... there's already a PC release out. Someone in the chain really messed up this time. 7 whole days before release.