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"The don't buy their games card doesn't really work since the number of story driven RPGs that are released each year is countable on the fingers of one had... if you cut off a few fingers.

 

If you ignore Bioware, you're left with Obsidian and CDProjekt Red for story driven RPG's. The first one has only a few games of varying quality to their name, the second - one.

 

Gothic, Divinity, Drakensang etc may be good games, but they're not the same type of experience. "

 

Nonsense.

 

Why buy a game you gonna hate? The fact there is a lack of story driven RPGs as ane xcuse to buy a crappy game is nonsense.

 

To buy/play something just because it's there even though you hate spending time on it is the ultimate of foolishly wasting money.

 

If CDProject was the last RPG story driven company lived I would NOT buy their games just ebcause because their one game I did play sucked. Why waste my money?

 

Illogical.

 

Also, I'm a sports game junky. I loved EA's MVP series. The last version of it in 2005 was awesome. However, their competition got an exclusive deal with MLB so no more MVP series. I tried that otehr company's baseball game. It sucked. I haven't bought a baseball game sense.

 

Why would I buy a baseball game I know will suck just because it's there? ILLOGICAL.

 

I spend my 'fun money' on thing I believe I will enjoy. I thought all people did that? I was wrong. :p


DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Try to understand that there is a wold beyond unflinching adoration on one side and foaming on the mouth hate on the other. Bioware's recent games are of passable quality, (except for NWN OC which is hopeless).

 

I like story driven RPG's. In fact, its now the only genre I consistently play. I take what I can get, which isn't much these days. If I considered a game an absolute and total waste of time I wouldn't play it, or I would ditch it after a few hours (Eg: Fallot 3, Gothic III, Oblivion).

 

Everyone's gripe with Bioware is not that their games are rubbish, its that they are not what they could be. They're fun, just not very memorable. I treat them like a quick fix until something better comes along.


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Imperium Thought for the Day: Even a man who has nothing can still offer his life

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Games I think will always be sort on an uneasy balance between gameplay and story, unlike a novel or a movie which can be mostly story since there really is no interaction, only presentation.

 

 

The need for games to be interactive forces simplification of the narrative presentation almost by neccessity. IMO.

To me, the best thing about games is interactive storytelling. There should be no conflict there at all. The problem is many developers treat story and gameplay as separate things, but to be a powerful medium games have to merge the two.

 

 

Of course there's a conflict. The more choices the player is allowed, the more difficult is becomes to present a well-structured narrative. If the choices are trivial ones, then it is less of an issue, certainly, since the narrative doesn't have to alter grearlt to present a trivial choice. But major choices require major alterations of the narrative.

 

Good luck with that in this day and age of inflated game budgets.

 

Down the road, if AI becomes better at responding to player chocie and altering narrative flow dynamically, then it would be much more possible.

Interactive doesn't just mean you occassionally get to make a "big" choice, although that's what Bioware is now defaulting to. In fact the best interactive story telling I've seen are games like Call of Cthulhu, Shenmue 2, and Thief: DS, where you hardly make any choices at all. Of course it's also possible to tell a story in a choice driven game, which is what Age of Decadence is trying to do, so we'll see how well that works. As far as mainstream developers, let's just say their priorities lie elsewhere $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

 

I guess we just differ in how we define interaction.

 

Yes, interaction can be defined as simply pounding colored pegs through holes in order to move to the next level. But that sor tof interaction has nothing to do with changing the gameworld or having an effect on the narrative. It's just a puzzle. Puzzles are fine. But they;ve been in games for years.

 

For me, interaction with a narrative is makign choices that reflect how the narrative plays out. Like in Deus EX, I would have like dto make the choice to stay with MJ12 and become buiddies with Gunther and Anna. But, of course, that wasn't an option. I had to leavbe MJ12/UNATCO and I had to kill Anna and Gunther.

 

 

I understand why. Game developers can't afford to write multi-threaded narratives at this point. So its fine. But at the moment, interaction in games is pretty much limited to choosing your hair color, who you are goign to romance and which weapons to carry. Its just way too complex to try to make interactive narratives.


Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.

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"I don't buy their games anyway, I bought their last two games,"

 

Let's rephrase this quote....

 

 

I DON'T BUY THEIR GAMES ANYWAY

 

 

 

I BOUGHT THEIR LAST TWO GAMES

-----------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------

 

 

Jigga wut?

I thought what I said was quite clear, but I'll explain further. KOTOR was my favorite game ever. JE was also good, but incomplete (in retrospect, the start of the fall of Bio) ME was extremely disappointing, DAO a little better but still crappily designed. At this point I'm unwilling to continue to give the benefit of the doubt to Bio.

 

Yes, interaction can be defined as simply pounding colored pegs through holes in order to move to the next level.
OK, but for it to be interactive storytelling, pounding the pegs would have to be an important part of the story somehow.

 

Edit: And OK, you're talking about interacting with the narrative, not interactive storytelling, so we're not really talking about the same thing. The best I can do here is point to Age of Decadence again, and I'm assuming it'll live up to its promises.

Edited by Wrath of Dagon

"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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didnt nwn oc come out before kotor? that wasnt the start of the fall?


The Internet: A place where everything is literally binary and the only shade of grey is the one seen by angry nerds when imagining what their ideal Diablo screen-shots look like.

Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.

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didnt nwn oc come out before kotor? that wasnt the start of the fall?

May be, it was before I started playing games, or at least I wasn't aware of it at the time.


"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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didnt nwn oc come out before kotor? that wasnt the start of the fall?

May be, it was before I started playing games, or at least I wasn't aware of it at the time.

 

Maybe you have just become jaded over time, or you've placed the early games on a pedestal?

 

I'm not sure how you can possibly put JE over DA on the quality scale. I liked JE, but I think most folks agree it isn't their best work, whereas DA has gotten quite a bit of positive reaction from the community.

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I don't buy their games anyway, I bought their last two games, didn't like them, and not planning to buy any more. So far as what they do from now on, I care no more than what the rest of EA does.

EA says:

I am the game, you don't wanna play me

I am control, no way you can shake me

I am heavy debts, no way you can pay me

I am the pain, and I know you can't take me

:p

Edited by Orogun01

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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didnt nwn oc come out before kotor? that wasnt the start of the fall?

Fall? LOL

 

Every subsequent Bio game since BG has been (more or less) an improvement over its predecessor.


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didnt nwn oc come out before kotor? that wasnt the start of the fall?

Fall? LOL

 

Every subsequent Bio game since BG has been (more or less) an improvement over its predecessor.

 

 

If you're not Volo, how do you figure that?


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"Everyone's gripe with Bioware is not that their games are rubbish, its that they are not what they could be. They're fun, just not very memorable. I treat them like a quick fix until something better comes along."

 

That describes some people here; but not you. Go back and look at your last 100 posts about a BIOI game then come back and tell me seriously you don't find BIO rubbish. You speak like you speak for 'everyone' but you don't.

 

There are others here who criticize (heck, I critcize them); buit it's obvious they actually enjoy BIO games. Your posts do ntohing but trash them and make it clear that they disgust you and are 'worst games ever'.

 

Now, back to topic.. why waste money on games from a company you believe makes utter rubbish that ar eonly worth trashing non stop en masse on the internetz? Seems a waste of money to me.

 

 

"If you're not Volo, how do you figure that?"

 

Cause it is true - espicially if you are a TRUE RPG fan.

 

No way no how can one argue that BG1 and even BG2 are worst *role-playing games* then the ones that came after. NWN, KOTOR, JE, ME, and DA are all superior games when it comes to role playing. This is fact.

 

You may like BG2 more (BG2 is tied as my fave campaign along with DA still not counting NWN:TP); but it definitely is a product of its time as I seriosuly doubt it be as popular if it was released now since it lacks role-playiong wise. Not to mention, combat, writing, and C&C wise.


DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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I like the movie trailer style, but melodramatic much?

 

It reminds me of the Matrix Revolutions trailer.

Agreed. That was a bit *too* dramatic.


"Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade - make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons, what am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager. Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons. Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons. I'm going to to get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!"

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I wonder if beating the unbeatable Reapers, passing the relay that no one has ever returned from and winning the unwinnable war is just a day's work in ME2, what will Shepherd do in ME3? Oh that's right, rise from the dead :p

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I wonder if beating the unbeatable Reapers, passing the relay that no one has ever returned from and winning the unwinnable war is just a day's work in ME2, what will Shepherd do in ME3? Oh that's right, rise from the dead :p

 

 

Have we not been following the ME2 news? Been there, done that.

 


I'm going to need better directions than "the secret lair."

 

-==(UDIC)==-

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You should not try encapsule what is intelligent, complex, fun or entertaining into artificial definitions that only exists in your head.

 

Why not? It's what everyone else does. What is fun and entertaining depends on the individual. That is, it exists only in their head.

 

Entertainment is not about simple laughs, it is much more than that.

 

Entertainment can be many things, and "simple laughs" is one of them. An entertainment product that succeeds in providing mindless fun is better than one that tries and fails to offer something more.

 

The rest of your post can be summed up as: Hey man, like, open your mind. You'll, like, totally learn and appreciate stuff.

 

I guess we just differ in how we define interaction.

 

Yes, that does seem to the problem with this particular discussion. If I press 1 on the keyboard and then aim and press the mouse button to shoot the enemy, then I'm interacting with the game world. You seem to be asking for a choose-your-own-adventure style branching storyline.

 

Lack of branching story lines isn't really a new problem (as in games being so expensive to make now) as the more branches you have, the move work the developer needs to do, which is as true for both AAA blockbuster RPGs as it is for text adventures, and not every developer sees it as a valuable thing. Valve, for example, makes strictly linear games as they see no value in putting extra work into something most people won't even see.

 

I prefer games like Deus Ex, Thief, or Hitman which feature mostly or completely linear stories, but allow me a bit of freedom in how I complete missions. Freedom in how I interact with the gameworld in order to advance the story, even if the story itself remains the same. The end slides of games like Fallout and Dragon Age are nice, but I prefer small changes that occur while I play, rather than big changes that I can read about once I've finished playing.

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I wonder if beating the unbeatable Reapers, passing the relay that no one has ever returned from and winning the unwinnable war is just a day's work in ME2, what will Shepherd do in ME3? Oh that's right, rise from the dead :p

 

 

Have we not been following the ME2 news? Been there, done that.

 

 

Maybe he'll be more dead then?

 

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I think I saw that in an old episode of Space Ghost.


Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.

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didnt nwn oc come out before kotor? that wasnt the start of the fall?

May be, it was before I started playing games, or at least I wasn't aware of it at the time.

 

Maybe you have just become jaded over time, or you've placed the early games on a pedestal?

 

I'm not sure how you can possibly put JE over DA on the quality scale. I liked JE, but I think most folks agree it isn't their best work, whereas DA has gotten quite a bit of positive reaction from the community.

I certainly don't put JE on a pedestal, I see plenty of problems with it. I think what it comes down to different people look for different things from a game. In an RPG I look for well designed quests, as they make me feel I'm fully participating in the game world and story. JE has plenty of those (though not all), DAO hardly has any. As far as quality of execution, DA probably is better than JE (although the art design is more generic). It's in the quality of design, specifically quest design, where it really falls down. To see that for example, compare the haunted orphanage quest in DA with any of the ghost quests in JE (like the ghost children, or the liver transplant, or pretty much the whole sunken city).

"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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Okay, ME nerds. Jags needs your help.

 

While spending my afternoon break gazing at pr0n, I noticed that I inadvertently deleted my ME folder, shamefully thinking it was spyware side-effect of digital juggling gazooms. Treacherous pr0n! Why dost thou tease me so? But fear not gentle gamer - for Bio are super clever and included the Bio ME Save Games Bling in My Documents where my intergalactic poontang exploits are safe and sound. Unfortunately, I don't know which file is which (as they're generically named) and I can't load it as my ME disc is hidden somewhere amongst my cache of hardcopy porn underneath my bed. So the question I pose to thee is which is the last file that I want to import into ME2: the highest numbered save or the autosave? The highest numbered save is not only the highest number but it's also the largest save. On the other wang, the autosave is the chronologically last file to have been modified. :shifty:


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Okay, ME nerds. Jags needs your help.

 

While spending my afternoon break gazing at pr0n, I noticed that I inadvertently deleted my ME folder, shamefully thinking it was spyware side-effect of digital juggling gazooms. Treacherous pr0n! Why dost thou tease me so? But fear not gentle gamer - for Bio are super clever and included the Bio ME Save Games Bling in My Documents where my intergalactic poontang exploits are safe and sound. Unfortunately, I don't know which file is which (as they're generically named) and I can't load it as my ME disc is hidden somewhere amongst my cache of hardcopy porn underneath my bed. So the question I pose to thee is which is the last file that I want to import into ME2: the highest numbered save or the autosave? The highest numbered save is not only the highest number but it's also the largest save. On the other wang, the autosave is the chronologically last file to have been modified. :shifty:

 

Looking at my own save files, I'd be inclined to say the strangely named "Char_##_##_#_#_#_###_#.masseffectsave" files. There's just enough human readable text in the file for me to make out that they belong to the three times I've gotten through the whole game.


I'm going to need better directions than "the secret lair."

 

-==(UDIC)==-

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"Everyone's gripe with Bioware is not that their games are rubbish, its that they are not what they could be. They're fun, just not very memorable. I treat them like a quick fix until something better comes along."

 

That describes some people here; but not you. Go back and look at your last 100 posts about a BIOI game then come back and tell me seriously you don't find BIO rubbish. You speak like you speak for 'everyone' but you don't.

 

There are others here who criticize (heck, I critcize them); buit it's obvious they actually enjoy BIO games. Your posts do ntohing but trash them and make it clear that they disgust you and are 'worst games ever'.

 

Now, back to topic.. why waste money on games from a company you believe makes utter rubbish that ar eonly worth trashing non stop en masse on the internetz? Seems a waste of money to me.

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Imperium Thought for the Day: Even a man who has nothing can still offer his life

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