Dragon age discussion

[Monte Carlo]

^ Yeah, but will there be tunnels? and fighting in tunnels?

[Volourn]

"Morrigan is very eager for you to save Sten and a blood mage in Redcliffe, and you get a lot of approval points if you do."

 

Aw, man. Why did you have to leave the goof off so easy with these spoilers? By, gah, he needs to squirm.

 

 

"Translation: I have none as I am talking out of my arse... again. "

 

So, anymnore crap you want speel as you try to claim garbage about me?

 

 

 

 

"Which brings us to our next point. Not all the blood mages in the tower were aligned/stayed aligned with Uldred (and his plan to turn the mages into abominations). Indeed, most of the rebel mages were motivated by escape. Look at it from the mages perspective. The Circle is but a glorified gilded cage, their home and prison both. Virtually, all the mages were drafted to the circle against their wishes. Is not freedom a fundamental right? Does not everyone have a right to personal liberty until they it has been forfeited? I don't believe that it is evil at all to for one of those mages to try and escape. And excluding the blood mages aligned with Uldred, the rebels only crimes were revolting against their Templar captors. It's not unreasonable to believe that the Templars are the ones with the lower moral standing, as they're the one's keeping the mages imprisoned against their wishes. On top of that, the Templars were poised to invoke their Right of Annulment. If this doesn't qualify as evil, I'm not sure what does. It essentially a blanket sentence of genocide - no due process, no fundamental safeguards for individual rights. And given that the Circle was locked up by the Templars, it would not be unreasonable for an ordinary prudent mage in her position to presume your presence in the tower was on behalf of the Templars. So I don't blame her one bit for attacking you on sight."

 

Game. Set. Match.

 

Doing the Chantry/Templar's dirty work is sickening. They are most definitely in the wrong which is why the mean boss analogy isw rong. The boss is a slaver. Now, if he was, would you be so quick to judge? Why should someone feel remorse for wanting to escape their prison. Also, some of the CT mages are all for the Chantry because they've been brainwashed into believing that controlling mages is a good thing.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Volourn

[Aristes]

Both Dega and Jags make good arguments, but the point is that they make good arguments for their perspectives. I don't think Bioware should make the moral decision for us. In a game where you are not only expected to kill off tons of folks but actually required to do so in order to further the game, it should not be a clear cut question with easy answers on the part of the design team. If Dega kills off the wretches, then the design team should not overtly put it in terms of being evil. In his mind, this isn't evil. It's justice. If Dega spares the wretches, then the design team should not put it in terms of being good. In his mind, it might not good. It might be indifference. My point is that the design team feels compelled to dictate the moral basis for the decision overtly whereas the player should not be forced to view the act confined by Bioware. Of course, a game that allowed that kind of leeway is going to far more ambitious than any of the games I've seen in recent years.

 

In prinicple, I agree with Dega about how Bioware depicts the decision. In practice, however, I'm going to forgive Bioware for taking the expedient route.

 

This game has been quite entertaining. I find the battles sufficiently difficult to be fun without being a chore, which is to say that I hardly ever have to restore from a save because of wipes, but I do have to spend a little time micromanaging. Yeah, the AI can be irritating, for example, the idiots should really avoid running into my inferno effect, but what the hell? You can't have everything. I've had the game for a while, but I was gone for a couple of weeks so I've only now gotten into it. It's not as addictive as Fallout 3 so far, but I think the character creation and advancement is more entertaining so I think I'll end up with more replays.

[Gorgon]

Ok so I got the game kinda by chance, was supposed to meet someone who didn't show, so I went into a nearby blockbuster and it was on sale.

 

Installing now. I'll be most displeased if I wont be able to outfit my dwarf with a proper beard.

[Gromnir]

In prinicple, I agree with Dega about how Bioware depicts the decision. In practice, however, I'm going to forgive Bioware for taking the expedient route.

 

that is the rub o' it though, no? the question is not whether or not bio got morality right or wrong, but whether or not they gave the player plausible options. player feels cheated if only options is as follows : 1) kill, 2) set free. is not that bio is presenting the player with a tough moral dilemma, but rather that they is presenting an implausible moral dilemma.

 

as for da morality... am not surprised that the da shades o' gray were less evident than we were led to believe. typically we had a Good option and a Bad option as a possible resolution for most major quests. on the positive side, the Bad choices weren't simply selfish... you could see a Machiavellian or pragmatic reason for choosing Bad. even so, there were no tough moral choices in game... 'least not as far as Gromnir recalls. the Good option, while maybe not the most beneficial to your character or anybody else, were hardly hidden. da were hardly gray, but at least Some o' the choices had consequences. is too bad those choices and consequences were not particularly dependent on the origin material as were suggested by the biowarians.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

Poor Grom is so so wrong. Then again, he's the one who claims that rogues are useless in the game and that's been proven wrong already.

 

One example is the choice of who to put on the dwarven throne. There is no good vs evil quick fix answer there, and if oftend epends on the movitivaion. In fact, the viewpoint there can heavily change on whether you played the Dwarf Noble or Commoner Origins.

 

 

Compared to the vast majority of games includinhg your precious BG2, DA is as 'gray' as we're gonna get in a RPG. Then there's the chocies dealing with SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER, and SPOILER.

 

Tsk, tsk, Grom. Rogues are 'useless'. L0LZ

Edited December 3, 2009 by Volourn

[Enoch]

The toughest 'moral' choice I've had to make in the game so far was right up front in the Mage origin.

[HoonDing]

Then there's the chocies dealing with SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER, and SPOILER.

By all means, spill the beans.

[~Di]

The toughest 'moral' choice I've had to make in the game so far was right up front in the Mage origin.

 

Yep, me too. A lose-lose situation. Either way, I felt like crap.

[Volourn]

"By all means, spill the beans."

 

No, I've been pushing the edge of spoilers as is in these Obsidian threadsw when Obsidian has banned me from spoiling things. If you want specific examples from me ask me on the BIO/COdex/ITS forums, or wait until I do my review where I will spoil everything in a billion words or less.

 

I've alreayd been proven to be correct in this thread about the whole Morrigan thing depsite an accusation I'm using the spoiler thing as a cop out. Yet, I've yet to recieve an apology (nor do i expect one on the net). I've played the game so I don't have to make stuff up like some people seem to feel the need to.

 

 

"Yep, me too. A lose-lose situation. Either way, I felt like crap."

 

There's lots of situations like this where I made x decision that wasn't clear cut, or I actually *thoguht* it was clear cut but it actually *wasn't*. btw, In a semi spoiler, the situation you meet Sten in, is a perfect example of this, and is one of the best things I've seen in a CRPG when dealing with recruiting a joinable npc. And, i say that, despite hating Sten.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

Poor Grom is so so wrong. Then again, he's the one who claims that rogues are useless in the game and that's been proven wrong already.

 

is a dozen times we specifically said that rogues ain't useless, but your reading comprehension ain't improved. pointless? yeah. useless? no.

 

and if you thinks the orzamar throne situation provided genuine moral ambiguity, then you is no doubt the lowest common denominator that bio is trying to appeal to. congrats on living up to such a lofty standard.

 

enoch and di,

 

haven't played the mage origin, so am not sure what you reference, but is good to know that there is more genuine moral ambiguity than there would seem to be... even if it were only a small addition.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"and if you thinks the orzamar throne situation provided genuine moral ambiguity, then you is no doubt the lowest common denominator that bio is trying to appeal to. congrats on living up to such a lofty standard."

 

Have you played the dwarf commoner origin? No, it's not so clear cut and dry tool.

 

Heck, even as a dwarf noble origin, it's not so clear cut and dry tool.

 

Then again, youa re the one who keeps saying rogues are useless yet uses them. LMAO

 

The problem is you see everything in balck and white so you can never see things in gray. problem is your perception of what is gray NOT the game's.

[Gromnir]

Have you played the dwarf commoner origin? No, it's not so clear cut and dry tool.

 

Heck, even as a dwarf noble origin, it's not so clear cut and dry tool.

 

yes we did play the dwarf commoner origin. thanks for asking though.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

I liked the Dwarf Noble origin, thought it was plenty 'gray', but it was all let down by the fact that no matter what you do there is only one outcome. Clearly, you were an idiot all your life if you did nothing to build up enough political influence to prevent the way things went.

 

Oh, and that's enough baiting, kthx.

[Oner]

lots of arguing

You guys are overthinking it. This is dark fantasy. You **** up, your colleagues/higher-ups kill you.

The blood mages ****ed up, you killed them. Sucks to be them.

 

Then again, youa re the one who keeps saying rogues are useless yet uses them. LMAO

"That is a blatant lie or the most amazing display of ignorance I've ever heard." Edited December 4, 2009 by Oner

[Aristes]

I wouldn't count on getting real moral ambiguity from the mage origin. It's a fairly tough decision for a CRPG, though. I think the fade was really interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing the other origins. Probably human rogue next.

[Niten_Ryu]

There were no tough moral choices in DA but I don't think it's even possible to create 'em for me, or to anyone who roleplay their characters. Of course one could roleplay total neurotic character who'd doubt EVERY choice in the game, no matter how trivial. For my Dwarven rogue commoner, utilitarian option was always there, as clear a day and choices were really easy to make.

 

For my disgrunted and disfigured mage there was often "positive" choice or no choice at all. I couldn't figure out how to make worst choice for example in Orzimmar dwarven chantry quest. In the end, I didn't turn in that quest at all. Now you could get dwarf killed in the end credits if you choose to turn in that quest, but that's metalore. Same for all those o'bag sidequests. Didn't have effect on one way or the other. Should have gut those cheap bastards for giving me only few pitiful gold.

[Monte Carlo]

^ For me, moral ambiguity is all about the dividend between "do I kill him and get the loot or let him go and get the XP?"

[Gorgon]

I have to say the animation is quite substandard. Maybe you don't notice that as much when you get a full party and is more zoomed out to see the whole picture. The voice acting is quite laughable at times. I have restarted 3 times so far not clearing the tutorial level with either;

The elf city person, the dwarf commoner, and human noble.

 

I think I'll restart again as dwarf noble, as the commoner forced some undesirable skill choices like dual wielding. What does dwarf noble start with, shield skill or two hander ?

[Critter]

What does dwarf noble start with, shield skill or two hander ?

 

Shield Bash if I remember correctly.

[trulez]

There were no tough moral choices in DA ...

That's just you being stubborn and not facing the facts. There were several tough moral choices in DA, maybe they the story wasn't good enough for you to actually feel anything for the characters but saying those choices weren't there is just a lie.

 

As an example:

On my first play through I went to Redcliffe before clearing the Circle of Magi tower, and when presented with the option to either:

kill a child who's possessed with a demon, sacrifice his mother to enter the fade and battle the demon, or visit a far away land to clear tower full of blood magi not knowing if the solution was even viable

, I definitely felt like facing a tough moral choice.

 

Or at the end, before facing the Archdemon,

Morrigan asked if I should impregnate her and have our unborn child consume the spirit in Archdemon when it was slain, not knowing if it would kill him/her as it would kill me

, that definitely felt like a very tough moral choice to make.

[Critter]

Id say Redcliffe is what really got me into the game.

 

First playthrough:

 

 

So I came across Jowan and basically told him to piss off and I never wanted to see him again. He didn't show up when I discovered Connor was possessed. Basically it stuck me with killing the kid or going to the Circle. On the fly, I figured with the decisions and what I felt was a pressing time-frame, I killed the kid.

 

 

 

Second playthrough:

 

 

This time, I didn't tell Jowan I never wanted to see him again, and he showed up offering the sacrifice of the Mother and all that. On this playthrough, I was already annoyed by her character so much I said screw it and sacced her to be done with it.

 

 

 

To me, the small thing such as a single dialogue line of a person who may or may not be directly involved can change the outcome of a situation I thought this was an excellent touch.

 

Of course, doing more reading on DA, it seems Ive missed a few things concerning Alistar and Morrigan I think would be neat to play with, so I gotta go through and tinker with that some.

[Pidesco]

I have to say the animation is quite substandard. Maybe you don't notice that as much when you get a full party and is more zoomed out to see the whole picture. The voice acting is quite laughable at times. I have restarted 3 times so far not clearing the tutorial level with either;

The elf city person, the dwarf commoner, and human noble.

 

I think I'll restart again as dwarf noble, as the commoner forced some undesirable skill choices like dual wielding. What does dwarf noble start with, shield skill or two hander ?

 

http://www.dragonagenexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=9

 

Use this mod to avoid the forced skills at start.

[Gromnir]

There were no tough moral choices in DA ...

That's just you being stubborn and not facing the facts. There were several tough moral choices in DA, maybe they the story wasn't good enough for you to actually feel anything for the characters but saying those choices weren't there is just a lie.

 

As an example:

On my first play through I went to Redcliffe before clearing the Circle of Magi tower, and when presented with the option to either:

kill a child who's possessed with a demon, sacrifice his mother to enter the fade and battle the demon, or visit a far away land to clear tower full of blood magi not knowing if the solution was even viable

, I definitely felt like facing a tough moral choice.

 

Or at the end, before facing the Archdemon,

Morrigan asked if I should impregnate her and have our unborn child consume the spirit in Archdemon when it was slain, not knowing if it would kill him/her as it would kill me

, that definitely felt like a very tough moral choice to make.

 

the first one is a toughie... only if you visited redcliffe first, and even then did you really think they would give you a bogus option? there were clearly a Good choice, just not an easy choice.

 

your second example also not really present gray, as it were obvious what the right, honorable and good choice would be. sure, is a tough choice 'cause players, like people, is greedy and selfish, but it were obvious what were the good and right choice to make.

 

there were a couple places in the game where bio faces the player with a hard choice, and we applaud 'em for it. however, don't confuse hard choices with moral ambiguity. all bio did was sometimes give you a genuine cost for trying to do good.

 

*chuckle*

 

am recalling how we glanced at the pc achievements page at gamebanshee. we got no genuine interest in such things, but am always curious to see some o' the wacky stuff for which the developers eventual award their silly achievements. anywho, there is three or 4 basic Game Resolution achievements and we noticed that the achievement Gromnir were awarded were still grayed-out on gamebanshee's chart. obviously whomever had constructed and posted their chart had played every option save for the one that involved some kinda cost to the player. were not a moral ambiguous choice, but it were hard... for some folks at least.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Niten_Ryu]

There were no tough moral choices in DA ...

That's just you being stubborn and not facing the facts. There were several tough moral choices in DA, maybe they the story wasn't good enough for you to actually feel anything for the characters but saying those choices weren't there is just a lie.

 

As an example:

On my first play through I went to Redcliffe before clearing the Circle of Magi tower, and when presented with the option to either:

kill a child who's possessed with a demon, sacrifice his mother to enter the fade and battle the demon, or visit a far away land to clear tower full of blood magi not knowing if the solution was even viable

, I definitely felt like facing a tough moral choice.

 

Or at the end, before facing the Archdemon,

Morrigan asked if I should impregnate her and have our unborn child consume the spirit in Archdemon when it was slain, not knowing if it would kill him/her as it would kill me

, that definitely felt like a very tough moral choice to make.

 

Redcliffe was clear choice both times for my characters.

 

First run on the good guy, all mobs are dead in castle, except the child. Thus it was relatively safe option to get help from the mages. I expected to see Woman and the Alistairs other relative possessed (again) or killed but to use blood magic just wasn't option for my character. Bioware didn't make any negative choices for this option. Wynne went into fade and killed the demon. Like I said, I didn't even expect it to be this easy

 

Second run I left Redcliffe, but killed Smith and Dwarf first so they couldn't help defending the town. I also killed Elf spy and told bartender not to sell beer to the men. They have to fight scared. After while I came back and saw all town dead, except the plot critical character. Killed all towns people (who were undead by now), tried to set Blood mage free (bastard wouldn't leave). Chose option to use blood magic, thus killed the woman and then got ability to spec my char to blood magic. Unfortunate choice for the child. End credits tell that he got sick one day in the near future and disappeared. Again, all choices were clear as day, even without metagaming.