NWN2: Storm of Zehir is out

[Gorth]

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End of old Thread

 

I still need to play this one

[CoM_Solaufein]

Its okay, nothing to get too excited about.

[newc0253]

finally finished this on the weekend & liked it more than MOTB - no "epic" storyline, just good old-fashioned D&D fun.

 

i particularly liked the overland map - the shame of things is that the NWN engine is so creaky and old, we're unlikely to see another expansion, because it'd be great to see that developed. i guess the owls of minerva really do fly at dusk.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I've still not gotten it but I, most likely, will sometime soon - it sounds like a good, if different, campaign.

[aries101]

I have finally got the game and jumped right in and played some of it. I'm in the Samarach city? and planning what to next. Unfortunately, the camera is really bad, I find. I mean, I like the OK and all, but the camera and the camera modes are making it nearly unplayable for me. I can only play it, it seems, if I choose to option that has a fixed camera like BG2 and from a sort of isometric view. Is there any way to remedy this situation?

[Starwars]

Not really, other than customizing the options as much as you can to your liking (you can customize them in the Options menu). I mostly use Exploration Mode, where I control the camera with the mousewheel (click and hold to rotate camera). This works beautifully for me.

Or use Strategy mode and place the camera in as much of a top-down view as you can. That plays pretty closely to the cRPGs of old, though I suspect camera collision can get annoyying if you do this (I'm not sure, I haven't tried it).

I'm constantly changing views and spinning the camera around, I think it works great for that.

[Moatilliatta]

What is wrong with the camera? I thought it worked well after the MotB addition of strategy mode, I think that was what I used anyhow. It had good visibility of everything and was easy to control.

 

...though I suspect camera collision can get annoyying if you do this (I'm not sure, I haven't tried it).

I don't remember encountering this.

[Tigranes]

Everyone hates NWN1 and NWN2 camera, but I can't really say. Never minded either of them. With a game like NWN, it's impossible to play with just a single camera angle and zoom all the way through without ever touching the controls, simply because of the nature of the game. Esp. in NWN2. You want to control a party and spread them out, have big battles, have ceilings and tall trees and buildings, have major elevation changes, the ability to zoom in and rotate and to roam free-cam.... then at some point you're gonna have to touch the camera. I quickly got used to using the mouse-wheel (which you can press for mouselook) to readjust all the while, and also to switch to an isometric or even bird's eye viewpoint in some of the more narrow caverns. Luckily, Obsid devs seemed to figure out pretty quickly that small narrow areas in NWN2 really screw with the camera, so most of the time you'll get decent pathways (i.e. the Skein).

 

Still in Samarach because I didn't want to go to the Sword Coast too early. It's odd because I'm level 7 or something, but there are several areas in Samarach that are way too difficult for me, but I hear if you go to the Sword Coast you can't come back for ages. I haven't crafted a lot yet of course, but hell, I don't even know where to get Timber! Am I meant to make the jump?

[samm]

Still in Samarach because I didn't want to go to the Sword Coast too early. It's odd because I'm level 7 or something, but there are several areas in Samarach that are way too difficult for me, but I hear if you go to the Sword Coast you can't come back for ages. I haven't crafted a lot yet of course, but hell, I don't even know where to get Timber! Am I meant to make the jump?

Lvl. 7 sounds too early. Go do some quests etc Timber you get by trading with other cities - you have got the trade introduction already, haven't you? Because if you haven't, you couldn't leave for the Sword Coast yet anyway. You can jump back anytime you want, but it'll cost you (2500 gold or something).

[Starwars]

I think I got to the Sword Coast around level 9 or so. By that time, I believe I (on my second playthrough) could take on whatever I could find in Sammarach, though some fights are quite challenging. But yep, you can still go back to Sammarach later on for a small fee. There is a small window in the main quest where the portal back doesn't work (I assume it's a bug) but if you just follow the questline for a tiny bit it should start working again.

 

And yep, you get Timber from trading with cities, though you can find it on the OL map if you're lucky (can't recall the relevant skill you need).

 

Also, small tip... Before you leave for the Sword Coast, you should take one unit of Salt (need to do a certain quest for that to show up as a Rare Resource Trade Good in a certain town) with you as you can use it for a quest on the Sword Coast. That'll save you time running back and getting it later.

[Moatilliatta]

@Tigranes

My problem with the NWN2 camera (I had no problems with the NWN camera, mostly because it lacked a party) was that I didn't feel like I could get all the info from the visuals with the original camera, and it didn't matter how I positioned it. Once MotB came out I could always find some way to position it so that it didn't bother me.

 

I had the same problem in Hinterland (where you couldn't move the camera at all). Bad cameras give me a claustrophobic feeling and can ruin the game entirely.

[Tigranes]

Hm. This game is hard.

 

I don't know why, maybe I'm missing something. I've got over a dozen locations in Samarach, advanced the main quest up to where you go to the Sword Coast, and did a bunch of sides, but there are still some areas that knock the stuffing out of me (like those

yuan-ti in the temple ruins up north who have bloody high AC after Ghostly Visage and Shield (of Faith?)

).

 

Also doesn't help that I forgot some obscure bit of 3.5ed D&D again and realised Favoured Souls don't get Turn Undead, and so can't become a Doomguide. Well that was just stupid, so I cheated in Extra Turning. Now I have a doomguide who can't... turn undead.

 

The Overland Map really became disastrous when at one point my rogue died, and I had to hotfoot half of Samarach with my Fighter. Dear god, it was a pain. Teaches me for forgetting about Coins of Life. I can easily avoid every encounter when the rogue is alive, though... perhaps it shouldn't be quite so easy to do that on one hand, and on the other, perhasp encounter rates DO need to be toned down a bit, say 15-20%.

 

Samarach is beautiful and the music is magnificent; the combat is quite fun, too. Main gripe is how shallowly developed it is. I was absolutely delighted to just stumble on to a Crypt, only to realise it was only one freaking room. I mean, come on. You couldn't have made it a decent floor? Or even TWO rooms? I suppose it was a time/budget issue, but I'd much rather they had the whole game in a slightly expanded Samarach with more detail than Samarch AND the Sword Coast. Imagine half of a Durlag's Tower in SOZ. Of course, I haven't been to the Coast yet. Maybe it's much better there.

 

Currently it's not a game I can play for hours and hours on end, but it is fun in frequent short bursts and I'm eager to hit mid-game.

[Gromnir]

"Also doesn't help that I forgot some obscure bit of 3.5ed D&D again and realised Favoured Souls don't get Turn Undead, and so can't become a Doomguide. Well that was just stupid, so I cheated in Extra Turning. Now I have a doomguide who can't... turn undead. aiee.gif "

 

you know, when Gromnir saw your grey orc favored soul/doomguide we were considering asking, "why?" sure, am seeing why it could make sense to go assimar favored soul/doomguide with a level o' cleric thrown into the mix... boost charisma and increase wisdom as little as is deemed useful. use the gazillion turn attempts for divine might and divine shield 'n such instead o' turning. couldn't figure out why you would do so with a grey orc. shoulda' asked.

 

the console is your friend. go to any tavern and re-register your party. dump the grey orc favored soul and add a grey orc cleric... then cheat in enough exp to equal the rest o' your party. turning ain't necessary in game, but it is the equivalent o' free exp. a cleric/doomguide with 12+ class levels will pretty much insta kill any undead encounter. you gets a dozen turn attempts per day? is a good enough reason to never bypass a wight encounter. feels like cheese though.

 

"Of course, I haven't been to the Coast yet. Maybe it's much better there."

 

the improvement in sword coast is marginal at best. there is a couple multi-room encounter locations, but they is still rare, and even the multi-room locations is basic straightforward hack 'n slash.

 

soz is half-baked. overland map is a nice addition, but developers really underdeveloped the rest of the game. what a shame.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

you know, when Gromnir saw your grey orc favored soul/doomguide we were considering asking, "why?" sure, am seeing why it could make sense to go assimar favored soul/doomguide with a level o' cleric thrown into the mix... boost charisma and increase wisdom as little as is deemed useful. use the gazillion turn attempts for divine might and divine shield 'n such instead o' turning. couldn't figure out why you would do so with a grey orc. shoulda' asked.

 

Yeah, it was just a case of "Hey Gray Orc, new!" "Hey Doomguide, new!" "Hey, I haven't tried FS yet, new!". It didn't take me long to see that it didn't make a lot of sense, though.

 

I might just take your advice on re-making it as a cleric. Broken parties do just fine in, say, the OC, but not so much in SOZ.

 

Anyway, yeah, it does feel half-baked. It is flawed, so far. But it's still fun and I'll probably play it a couple of times.

[Rhomal]

Its okay, nothing to get too excited about.

 

Clearly you never played old school PnP D&D or you'd realize they captured the feel of such fun, high adventure modules like war rafts of kron or quest for the heart stone to the T!

 

If thats not your cup of tea or before your time then I can see where one simply does not 'get it' with this XP. Even if it's not your thing the additions to the game engine are going to open a new era for community mods I think. Looking forward to see what folks like Adam Miller do with it.

[Monte Carlo]

Its okay, nothing to get too excited about.

 

Clearly you never played old school PnP D&D or you'd realize they captured the feel of such fun, high adventure modules like war rafts of kron or quest for the heart stone to the T!

 

If thats not your cup of tea or before your time then I can see where one simply does not 'get it' with this XP. Even if it's not your thing the additions to the game engine are going to open a new era for community mods I think. Looking forward to see what folks like Adam Miller do with it.

 

^ What he said, to the power of ten.

[samm]

I agree to some extent, but will add that there are several things lacking that show that some people working on the expansion hadn't thought about the stuff a PnP DM has to think about (like "what will I do when the players don't follow my preset oder of events", "how do I tell a story that connects with the game world") and stuff an NWN2 module wiz has to think about (like "how do I connect areas / modules in a way that doesn't annoy the player", "how do I define active areas to be a) reachable and b) not overshadowing other active areas").

 

A very good game none the less, and could have been great with few changes.

[Tigranes]

Wandered around the Sword Coast a bit, and it largely seems to be the same, just a little better (and of course with proper expanded trading). Trading is well done, but nothing special so far. I liked what they did with Neverwinter and Crossroads Keep.

[Volourn]

"Clearly you never played old school PnP D&D or you'd realize they captured the feel of such fun, high adventure modules like war rafts of kron or quest for the heart stone to the T! "

 

Wrong. They didn't capture any of the old spirit. SOZ is horrible, and it's not fun. It's bland, boring, and has no spirit or soul.

 

 

"If thats not your cup of tea or before your time then I can see where one simply does not 'get it' with this XP."

 

Not before my time, and I love those type of adventurers - if they're done right. SOZ is not done right. It's done poorly.

 

" Even if it's not your thing the additions to the game engine are going to open a new era for community mods I think. Looking forward to see what folks like Adam Miller do with it."

 

The additions are alright; but face it NWN2's modding commiunity isn't grow any larger. That ship has most certainly sailed.

 

SOZ is a HUGE dissapointment to me as both a NWN2 fan, and an 'old school fun, high adventurer module' fan.

 

Just a poor, poor expansion.

[Nightshape]

Having not finished SoZ yet, I can't really comment on much... I certainly don't dislike the game, but my complaints are pretty much the same as always, clunky interface, and frustration with the camera(s).

 

The performance is now atleast acceptable.

[Rhomal]

*snip*

 

Yes V we should all just uninstall nwn2 and go back to nwn1 because it was so much 'better'.

 

Next.

[Volourn]

Huh? I never mentioned NWN1 at all. I like NWN2 just fine. NWN2 OC was a pretty good game, and I absolutely love MOTB which I find even better than my favorite NWN1 campaign HOTU. SOZ just isn't good. It has nothing to do with NWN1.

 

Perhaps if you weren't ignorant, and actually read my post you'd know that. Stop being a fanboy.

 

NWN2 OC = Good = 7.8

 

MOTB = Great = 8.5

 

SOZ = Crappy = 4.0

 

NWN OC = Good = 7.5

 

SOU = Average = 7.0

 

HOTU = Above average = 8.2

[Rhomal]

You give the NWN1 OC a 7.5 and you call ME the fanboy?! *blinks*

 

Then again if your idea of good writing is 2 giant fed-ex quests duck taped together then sure it was a 'good' story.

[Volourn]

Says the guy who thinks SOZ is a great game, and a gift to old schook rpgs. LMAO

 

Of course, as usual, you ignore everything that disproves what you calimed before. Not surprising. Just like you conviently ignore the fact you believe that NWN2 would completely wipe out NWN1's player base. LMAO

 

I guess your idea of exploration/adventure is entering 1-2 room 'dungeons'. LMAO

 

I guess your idea of good writing is the sozziness of SOZ's 'plot' (or what passes off for it). LMAO

 

I guess your idea of a 'fanboy' is someone who rates a game 7.5 SEVEN POINT FIVE, and criticizes the game a lot. OMGZ LMAO

 

Then again, you rarely truly criticize NWN2, and when you do its tempered by lameness excuses of it's 'the publishers'fault'. LMAO

[Gromnir]

old skool = good skool?

 

why?

 

in any event, soz don't really hearken back to the better old school modules that Gromnir recollects, and it really not remind us o' iwd... which were the comparison that the developers made more often than not previous to soz release. soz, for the most part, is filled with underdeveloped encounters. maybe why some people thinks that soz reminds 'em of old school d&d is 'cause they were crappy role-players or had a horrible dm. play the A or S series o' tsr pre-2nd edition modules strictly according to the basic framework provided by printed material? is gonna be a pretty spartan experience. is virtual 0 dialogue in those old modules, and unlike current wotc modules, individual encounters were pretty much left to dm's discretion.

 

Gromnir heard the "old school" stuff from fans when toee were released by troika. is funny too, 'cause previous to toee release Gromnir had lamented the use o' toee as source material... we noted that the old toee super-module kinda sucked. troika fans responded that o' course troika would do more than simply give a black letter xerox copy o' toee. like any competent dm, troika would no doubt build 'pon the framework o' the old tsr module. there is no bad d&d modules if you have a good dm, right? (though am gonna argue that tomb o' horrors is a crap arse module regardless o' the dm running the adventure.) before toee release we heard from troika fans that "of course toee will be developed beyond the barebones pnp module." after the release o' toee we heard same folks defending troika... noting that troika simply followed the toee blueprint. what a crock. is new fans defending obsidaina, but is same crock. soz ain't like iwd... not by a long shot. where is the severed hand or dorn's deep or even the black wolf temple/vale o' shadows? 'stead we get http://www.gamebanshee.com/icewinddale/wal...sthavencave.php what a load.

 

soz puts some very interesting (if buggy) tools into the hands o' module makers... but the demo module we got from obsidian is pretty lackluster. a vast majority o' soz encounters is the kinda crap we sees in bad releases over at nwnvault: adventures filled with numerous brief, combat-heavy encounters.

 

am recalling a tedious debate we had at codex regarding soz. one codexian fan o' soz gave us an example o' the superior encounters found on the sword coast map portion o' soz: a two room cabin filled with dire animals and a malarite druid who attacks you w/o any possible dialogue options were the example put forward by the codexian as representing superior obsidian design.

 

...

 

huh?

 

Gromnir were never a fan o' bg. lots o' random seeming encounters and poorly designed "dungeons" dot an otherwise enormous world map. even the bio developers has noted that much o' the great story stuff in bg were simply imagined by fans... 'cause the developers left pretty damn sparse. that being said, there IS people who genuine enjoy the sorta by-the-book and developer-lite approach that bio took in bg. is not particularly imaginative or innovative, but if you want lots o' combat/1007/exp opportunities, soz and bg provides 'em in spades. heck, both obsidian and bioware has gone "old skool" with release o' me and soz... the only difference being that mass effect did throw in some larger set pieces.

 

regardless, soz ain't old school d&d so much as it is old school crpg... relative speaking. old school d&d required a dm to build 'pon the basic module framework. compare old ravenloft module to the new return to ravenloft. virtual every encounter in the New product has a 2 page write-up that describes possible combat and dialogue resolutions and appropriate dcs 'n such. sure, the dm can still ignore, and players is still likely to color outside the lines, making the printed material largely useless, but there is a reason why old module is 32 pages and the new version is more than 200 pages. soz is old school in the sense that the obsidian developers left sparse and largely underdeveloped... which is a valid approach in a pnp game, but in a crpg in which the developer IS the dm/gm...

 

still, soz coulda' been a good game if there were at least one encounter on both samarach and sword coast map that really gots developed... but there weren't such an encounter. world maps were filled with lots o' small encounters that never felt genuine fulfilling... 'less your only real aim were to level and 1007.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited January 25, 2009 by Gromnir