The Incomplete Endings are lame.

[213374U]

You don't have to equip her with cloths... I got the options during the fight with the battle gear I had equip'd her with... Never used the options though.

Well, I don't know what was her gear in your game, but I didn't get the option to have her sacrifice herself until I replaced her robes for common clothing.

 

 

Only in the bad ones. The good ones merge the two together. If you have to force something like that to tell your story ,then your doing something wrong.

That's impossible, at least in SW. If you want to keep the players happy, you can't have those who choose Jedi classes be incredibly more powerful than those who don't. And in the movies, the sole thought of a Sith lord being brought down by Han Solo would cause an uproar. In SW, Jedi kill Jedi, and non-jedi die before Jedi. That's how it is. In this case, coherence between storytelling and ruleset is sacrificed in order to keep the classes balanced somewhat.

[Darth Hoebag]

Sometimes I would lead Atton into enemy fire just to let him get knocked out, its the closest thing to beating him I could do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My funny Atton story. Took a wrong turn in GOTOs ship and ended up in the turret room. Down goes Atton, Visis runs away. Then you see Xp 350 on screen followed by Atton falling over again. Took about 20 minutes but he cleared the room, and I had a snack break.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok... and? Is this some attempt to goad me? Try harder.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

That's impossible, at least in SW. If you want to keep the players happy, you can't have those who choose Jedi classes be incredibly more powerful than those who don't. And in the movies, the sole thought of a Sith lord being brought down by Han Solo would cause an uproar. In SW, Jedi kill Jedi, and non-jedi die before Jedi. That's how it is. In this case, coherence between storytelling and ruleset is sacrificed in order to keep the classes balanced somewhat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats why the ruleset is different to the movies. But if your playing with the ruleset then ruleset is the reality of your game.

[tmp]

Maybe it is,but it's still important that the reality of the game mechanics be taken into account when writing scenes, otherwise it makes what you do totally pointless.

To take into account sure, but not let them dictate the plot of the game... especially when the mechanics are clearly ill thought out and have all safety checks removed, allowing you to turn anyone into a godlike being with no effort.

 

But like Kreia said. It's conflict that makes us strong so it's little wonder with all the conflicts you get into.

Sion is Sith lord, his whole life is conflict. If that's where the strength comes from, he should be able to squash Atton like a little bug no matter how many pigs you two slayed on Dxun together.

[213374U]

Thats why the ruleset is different to the movies. But if your playing with the ruleset then ruleset is the reality of your game.

Then you would have a story that would contradict what we know from the movies just for coherence's sake. That's an even stupider alternative than have a plot twist overrule the ruleset.

[Grant Dempsey]

Only in the bad ones. The good ones merge the two together. If you have to force something like that to tell your story ,then your doing something wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But then where do you draw the line? If there was to be, say, an action sequence during a cutscene, must it truly take HP and other gameplay statistics into account for each character involved? Should it display HP losses each time one character were to hit another? Should characters take turns against each other even during action sequences that happen during cutscenes? Should characters never be able to do things during cutscenes that they couldn't visibly do during gameplay? Blending gameplay with the storyline has worked out well sometimes, true, but the two shouldn't be merged together entirely, I think. At least, not the point at which plot points should be completely disregarded simply because they portrayed a character as more powerful or less powerful than they were shown to be during gameplay.

 

Also, like I said, this has pretty much been my experience with all RPGs. I'm more of a console gamer than a PC gamer, though, so it could be that we're just used to different styles in gaming anyway (assuming that you're a PC gamer).

 

In regard to Darth Sion torturing and/or killing Atton Rand specifically, I would say that the storyline was pretty much set up to portray Darth Sion as nearly physically immortal so long as his will was strong and his body was able to absorb the energies of the Dark Side of the Force. As others have mentioned, too, one of the key points of the Exile's confrontation with Darth Sion was the fact that the Exile was not only defeating Darth Sion in physical combat, but in "mental combat" as well, slowly erroding his will and beliefs each time the physical duel was interrupted. Furthermore, within the storyline, I think it's pretty safe to say that the Exile was intended to be more powerful, ultimately, than the others fighting alongside him, regardless of how their statistics actually were in gameplay. Sort of like comparing Luke Skywalker to Han Solo. If there were the case, it was no surprise that the Exile was able to handle Darth Sion in combat, even if Atton Rand was not. Within the realm of the storyline.

[Darth Hoebag]

One thing that I think is cool, everyone seems to have built a certian attachtment to differant NPCs. Except G0-T0 and Hanharr, I think they are universally hated. I used everyone at least once, Hanharr when I was forced to, (I diddnt like him when I saw him, even though I was evil given the choice I would have taken Mira) And I never used G0-T0 I never even took him out to bring him above level 7. What exatly happened between him nad the droid? Did the planet blow up? Who did indeed die, if anyone. And what exactly did Revan leave to fight, and how did he get there without the Ebon Hawk, one thing I thought of, HK-47 was Revans, HK-50's are not Gotos, they want you alive, you were found on the Ebon Hawk, could it be possible that Revan sent the 50's out to bring you to him alive? Anyway anyone who can clear this stuff up I would appreciate it.

 

Speaking of getting really attachted and emotional over characters, I have never liked the FF's never have never will and I will never even try one. However, Baldurs Gate II Thron of Bhaal, when I chose to become the new Bhaal and had to leave Arie/Viconia/Jaehria behind... well maybe not Jaeheria, but Viconia was just a big softy once you put up with her long enough for her to accept her feelings. And when Bodhi turns your romance NPC into a vampire forcing you to kill them... that wasn't very cool. Anyway, yay for emotional games.

[tmp]

One thing that I think is cool, everyone seems to have built a certian attachtment to differant NPCs. Except G0-T0 and Hanharr, I think they are universally hated.

I kinda liked Goto. :">

 

Hanharr though... ehh. But that's more to do with finding the Wookies very irritating on the whole (only Ithorians are more annoying.. the two-faced manipulative little... uhh... cows

[Aegis]

Well, love and hate are strong emotions. Any game that manage to evoke either in the player did its job. If a character is developed enough for you to love or hate it as a person, then it's obviously a well-made character. Everyone doesn't have to like everyone in the game. I couldn't really stand Mission in KotOR1, for example. She was an annoying little brat, but that's okay, she was supposed to be.

 

I have never liked the FF's never have never will and I will never even try one.

 

Sorry, but that's just stupid. You've never tried it and dislike it out of principle?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

But then where do you draw the line? If there was to be, say, an action sequence during a cutscene, must it truly take HP and other gameplay statistics into account for each character involved? Should it display HP losses each time one character were to hit another? Should characters take turns against each other even during action sequences that happen during cutscenes? Should characters never be able to do things during cutscenes that they couldn't visibly do during gameplay? Blending gameplay with the storyline has worked out well sometimes, true, but the two shouldn't be merged together entirely, I think. At least, not the point at which plot points should be completely disregarded simply because they portrayed a character as more powerful or less powerful than they were shown to be during gameplay.

 

Also, like I said, this has pretty much been my experience with all RPGs. I'm more of a console gamer than a PC gamer, though, so it could be that we're just used to different styles in gaming anyway (assuming that you're a PC gamer).

 

In regard to Darth Sion torturing and/or killing Atton Rand specifically, I would say that the storyline was pretty much set up to portray Darth Sion as nearly physically immortal so long as his will was strong and his body was able to absorb the energies of the Dark Side of the Force. As others have mentioned, too, one of the key points of the Exile's confrontation with Darth Sion was the fact that the Exile was not only defeating Darth Sion in physical combat, but in "mental combat" as well, slowly erroding his will and beliefs each time the physical duel was interrupted. Furthermore, within the storyline, I think it's pretty safe to say that the Exile was intended to be more powerful, ultimately, than the others fighting alongside him, regardless of how their statistics actually were in gameplay. Sort of like comparing Luke Skywalker to Han Solo. If there were the case, it was no surprise that the Exile was able to handle Darth Sion in combat, even if Atton Rand was not. Within the realm of the storyline.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not every detail just the comparitve powerlevels.

 

Either Sion needed to be shown as more powerful when you met him on Koriban. I mean I could have stood there all day slapping him down when he got back up. But I did do Korriban last

 

If it came down to a played out one on one between Atton and Sion. I would have played it out like this.

 

Scene1. Atton fights Sion and dies within 10 rounds. If Atton lost that fight, cutscene plays of Atton losing. Fair enough because Atton just lost.

 

Scene2. Atton keeps beating Sion down for 10 rounds, or just goes invisible and hides in a corner. 10 rounds later the Exile arrives and finishes the job. Atton lives and you get your happy ending.

 

In either case the rules have been followed rather than just making up an outcome.

 

I'm an exPC gamer. I know what you mean about console RPGs, but they deal with it in a different way. I've never yet seen one where a character is killed then 5 minutes later the PC comes along and kills them. It's always a case of the character dying because they know the PC is too weak at that time and it's the only option. That makes the sacrfice meaningful I think.

[AlanC9]

Either Sion needed to be shown as more powerful when you met him on Koriban. I mean I could have stood there all day slapping him down when he got back up. But I did do Korriban last

 

Darth Malak on the Leviathan all over again, eh?

[Nitron]

Kreia--Run! You can't beat Sion, he's too strong for you. Fight him when you gain 2 more levels!!

 

Exile--That's impossible!! How can I gain so much XP?!

[Master Dahvernas]

And as for entertainment being a means of escape from reality, well, something's got to be very wrong with your life if you need to escape from it. They might as well give in to the blissful peace that sniffing glue provides.

 

Now, you're just being beligerent and arrogant, quite frankly.

 

People read books and see plays, go to concerts and see movies... And play games... As a form of entertainment and relaxation and to escape for a few hours.

 

That doesn't make them... And me which your comment was addressed to... "Inferior" or whatever you are claiming you are since you apparently never "escape" and view playing games and other recreational endeavors as "work".

 

I give up.

 

You don't really want to hear what I have to say... Or what others have to say... Unless it fits into your particular world view, so I am not going to respond to this forum anymore.

 

Fanboys and fangirls roll on...

[Astatine]

And as for entertainment being a means of escape from reality, well, something's got to be very wrong with your life if you need to escape from it. They might as well give in to the blissful peace that sniffing glue provides.

 

Now, you're just being beligerent and arrogant, quite frankly.

 

People read books and see plays, go to concerts and see movies... And play games... As a form of entertainment and relaxation and to escape for a few hours.

 

That doesn't make them... And me which your comment was addressed to... "Inferior" or whatever you are claiming you are since you apparently never "escape" and view playing games and other recreational endeavors as "work".

 

I give up.

 

You don't really want to hear what I have to say... Or what others have to say... Unless it fits into your particular world view, so I am not going to respond to this forum anymore.

 

Fanboys and fangirls roll on...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What he said. Apart from the give up bit.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Darth Malak on the Leviathan all over again, eh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

More or less. It really soured my experience of KOTOR when Malak actually died on the Leviathon and the game wouldnt let him. At least Sion had a reason (excuse) for why you couldnt kill him on Korriban. Then the whole look at me I'm immortal while running off to my recharge tanks was the last straw(Malak).

[213374U]

Not every detail just the comparitve powerlevels.

 

Either Sion needed to be shown as more powerful when you met him on Koriban. I mean I could have stood there all day slapping him down when he got back up. But I did do Korriban last

 

If it came down to a played out one on one between Atton and Sion. I would have played it out like this.

 

Scene1. Atton fights Sion and dies within 10 rounds. If Atton lost that fight, cutscene plays of Atton losing. Fair enough because Atton just lost.

 

Scene2. Atton keeps beating Sion down for 10 rounds, or just goes invisible and hides in a corner.  10 rounds later the Exile arrives and finishes the job. Atton lives and you get your happy ending.

 

In either case the rules have been followed rather than just making up an outcome.

 

I'm an exPC gamer. I know what you mean about console RPGs, but they deal with it in a different way. I've never yet seen one where a character is killed then 5 minutes later the PC comes along and kills them. It's always a case of the character dying because they know the PC is too weak at that time and it's the only option. That makes the sacrfice meaningful I think.

You are not listening. It is a widely accepted fact that Jedi classes are overpowered in comparison to non-Force using classes. Well, they are not as overpowered as they should be to reflect what a Jedi is in SW. Sion's stats are just a device to have him work in the game. They might as well just give him an invulnerability that will only go down after the exile gives him the speech about doubt. There is no way in hell a scoundrel is going to be able to best a Sith lord in combat, period. No matter how many thugs he has killed or how many footlockers he has lockpicked, Not. In. SW.

 

 

Now, you're just being beligerent and arrogant, quite frankly.

Ain't I always?

Sorry if I always say what you don't want to hear. Grow some balls and deal with it.

 

 

People read books and see plays, go to concerts and see movies... And play games... As a form of entertainment and relaxation and to escape for a few hours.

Fixed.

 

 

That doesn't make them... And me which your comment was addressed to... "Inferior" or whatever you are claiming you are since you apparently never "escape" and view playing games and other recreational endeavors as "work".

You are right. I never "escape", I deal with my problems. I do a lot of activities that allow me to blow off steam, but I always keep in mind who and what I am. And most importantly, I do all of that because I have the time to do so. They are activities to fill my spare time, not to help me hide under the bed.

 

I find it pretty hipocritical of you to hurl a personal attack like that, and then run off saying that "you give up and won't answer again". If you attack someone, you must have the decency to back your opinion and take full responsibility for it. But you have already proven you are either a coward, or plain simply, a hypocrite.

 

 

Fanboys and fangirls roll on...

Yet another elitist comment from the Master of Hipocrisy. If you are not a fanboy, what the hell are you doing here? It's not like this is a philosophy or political analysis message board. Get real.

[witchzenka]

My unneeded opinions:

Escaping from reality in a game or a book is an adventure and no more implies anything wrong with your life than taking a vacation or spending a day at the beach.

Tragedies as a form of "entertainment" become much more crucial in difficult times. Nations and the individuals in them need catharsis, and they need opportunities to examine their pain and traumas in a safe, third person way. Times are diffcult now, but times are always difficult - that is the human condition - the result of being a killer ape longing for peace and a higher sensibility.

Saying "but it is Star Wars" is no excuse to cheapen a story.

I would be devastated if I lost some of my beloved characters, but Romeo and Juliet is such an icon of love because of the sacrifices made, because of the loss, not in spite of it.

[Janson]

I find it pretty easy to become totally absorbed in books or games. I would call this 'escapism' because whilst I am concentrating on my character or the protagonist of the novel, I can quite literally forget about everything else. This does not mean that I shy or run away from my duties/work, however. I simply find it extremely enjoyable to place myself in another's shoes and have an adventure through them.

 

Anyway, excellent post witchzenka. I'm still hoping Atton lives 'til K3, though

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

You are not listening. It is a widely accepted fact that Jedi classes are overpowered in comparison to non-Force using classes. Well, they are not as overpowered as they should be to reflect what a Jedi is in SW. Sion's stats are just a device to have him work in the game. They might as well just give him an invulnerability that will only go down after the exile gives him the speech about doubt. There is no way in hell a scoundrel is going to be able to best a Sith lord in combat, period. No matter how many thugs he has killed or how many footlockers he has lockpicked, Not. In. SW.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But this is KOTOR and the game rules are the only reality that exists herer you area jedi,yetstillbe killed by turbo laster turrets, grenades or whatever else and your even more poweful than Sion so there is no logic behind your not in SW statement. Perhaps in the movies, or in a book, but this is a game.

[213374U]

My unneeded opinions:

Escaping from reality in a game or a book is an adventure and no more implies anything wrong with your life than taking a vacation or spending a day at the beach.

It all depends on the intent. If you are doing it because you can't deal with your problems, then there is something wrong with you, clinically. If that's not the case, then you should have no problem with fictional tragedies. That's the point I was arguing to begin with.

 

 

Saying "but it is Star Wars" is no excuse to cheapen a story.

Unfortunately, money is. Nowadays nobody wants a game that is challenging, nobody wants a sad ending for their stories, nobody wants anything that isn't freaking warm and fuzzy. It sickens me.

 

 

But this is KOTOR and the game rules are the only reality that exists.

Wrong. I would usually agree with you if this wasn't a setting with so much behind it, but in SW, some things take precedence over the ruleset. Hell, even in the movies there are things that are hard to believe, but that's how things are because it's SW.

[Odinson]

My funny Atton story. Took a wrong turn in GOTOs ship and ended up in the turret room. Down goes Atton, Visis runs away. Then you see Xp 350 on screen followed by Atton falling over again. Took about 20 minutes but he cleared the room, and I had a snack break.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Funniest thing I've ever read.

[Aurora]

Oh, yey, another one of these arguments. My thoughts, briefly: tragedy in fiction should make you appreciate life (within the fictional reality or in our own), not wallow in misery. There is such a thing as too much tragedy. I'm sure some people here have read George R. R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series. Great, it's vicious and harsh and sharp and fast and brutal and I love it: but at some point during the second or third book, I felt worn out. There was just too much suffering: great, sure, suffering is realistic to some extent. But it really had skewed my perception. The few times that something "good" happened to someone (a military victory with only a few dozen deaths, an easy escape from prison, one character helping out another and NOT betraying them) I'd scoff and think it was cliched, lame and unrealistic. Hint: It wasn't lame and unrealistic, I'd just spiralled into a temporary state of hardened bitterness, numbed by the constant tragedy.

 

There are a FEW writers who can handle this well, I'd imagine, and some who might very well be attempting to create the numb state in the reader (and, arguably, that works to a certain extent in K2, with the reasons behind the Exile being cut off from the Force). But if you're looking for emotional depth, or any real kind of balance as a writer, atrocity-after-atrocity is not a good method.

 

The "happy" moments in the game are few and far between as they are (although honestly, at the moment I can't think of a single one). Killing off the Jedi Superfriends without giving the PC any chance to save them is lousy. Half-killing the Jedi Superfriends and giving the PC a chance to sacrifice of hirself to save them: much better. There's real control over the story with the latter choice, there's a real sense that you can make a difference in the world instead of just being a manipulated helpless pawn despite your enormous power. Pffaugh.

 

Off topic, but Aurora - is your avatar one of the steel angels?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revolutionary Girl Utena!

[witchzenka]

It all depends on the intent. If you are doing it because you can't deal with your problems, then there is something wrong with you, clinically. If that's not the case, then you should have no problem with fictional tragedies. That's the point I was arguing to begin with. 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pathological escapism is never pretty. LOL

Me, I love adventure, and as a Midwestern mom my adventures run more in stain removal than whipping out my lightsaber and schooling thugs. Luckily there's games to provide balance.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Wrong. I would usually agree with you if this wasn't a setting with so much behind it, but in SW, some things take precedence over the ruleset. Hell, even in the movies there are things that are hard to believe, but that's how things are because it's SW.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Likewise, but it's a case of the rules needing to more reflect than film rather than ignoring the reality of the game rules just to make the game more filmlike.

 

In a movie the only reality is whats on the screen, it's up to the viewer whether or not they buy into it. But game rules are far more regular and shouldnt be broken just to tell a story.

 

I doubt anyone would accept it if your PC got to Kreia and then just died after a short cutscene. After all shes a lot more powerful than you in the SW sense.

[213374U]

Likewise, but it's a case of the rules needing to more reflect than film rather than ignoring the reality of the game rules just to make the game more filmlike.

I already explained why it would be impossible to have Jedi classes that were at the same time balanced, and fun to play with. In order to have a somewhat (!) balanced game mechanics (and stay true to the movies that gave birth to the setting), you must allow for certain compromises, such as the story overruling the ruleset at certain points.

 

 

I doubt anyone would accept it if your PC got to Kreia and then just died after a short cutscene. After all shes a lot more powerful than you in the SW sense.

I agree, nobody would accept that. But not because it went against the ruleset. Nobody would accept it because it would make no sense and it would be pretty sloppy storytelling. If the exile were to die in some meaningful sacrifice required to kill Kreia, I wouldn't have a problem with that. That would be one hell of an ending indeed.