Grant Dempsey

That's pretty accurate anyway.

Y'know, I was thinking about the Yuuzhan Vong in relation to the "True Sith" at one point... Perhaps I'm mistaken about something, but, as I recall, the Yuuzhan Vong's backstory, according to The New Jedi Order, was... What I'm going to say would depend on how long before The New Jedi Order that supposedly occured. Y'see, I was thinking...if some of the "Ancient Sith" survived the war with the Galactic Republic those many years ago and fled to the Unknown Regions, perhaps that group's culture -- while maintaining the philosophies of the Sith -- changed and evolved such over the years that biotechnology and some other early elements of what became the Yuuzhan Vong's beliefs and customs were integrated into it. Therefore, if Revan and the Exile were to confront "pre-Yuuzhan Vong Sith" in a Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III, the tale would perhaps end with them not dying out and becoming extinct, but, rather, becoming disconnected from the Force (reminiscent of the Exile's own experience). That would leave them alive, but their existence and presence still commonly unknown throughout the galaxy, for their culture to be impacted by their loss of the Force and for them to slowly become the Yuuzhan Vong over the next four thousand years. Besides, all the pictures I've seen of the "Ancient Sith" (like Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow and such) and the Yuuzhan Vong seemed actually vaguely similar, apart from the latter's self-inflicted mutilations and scars and so on. I can only imagine there's something wrong with all that and that it'll be pointed out to me, though.

The deaths of the three Jedi Masters on Dantooine. Kreia's actions surprised me a great deal. I knew there was more to her than there appeared to be and that she was even somehow associated with the Sith, of course...mainly because of her reviving Hanharr on Nar Shaddaa, telling him to hunt down Mira, and Colonel Tobin on Onderon, telling him she was "with General Vaklu" and allowing him to return to his "master" with information about Atris' academy on Telos. Her interaction with some of the other party members, too, led me to suspect... So, I had a suspicion that there would be a plot twist to do with her, but, it's funny, I tend to get so into characters sometimes that even if I suspect betrayal or something like that of them, it comes as a surprise to me anyway. Like, I trust them regardless of what I may think is foreshadowing or a clue that I maybe shouldn't. So, when Kreia attacked the Jedi Masters and appeared to reveal herself as an enemy, it was unexpected and shocking, even though I'd had my suspicions. The fact that I'd been so absorbed in the Jedi Masters' dialogue to the Exile and just that whole scene before it happened also contributed to that feeling.

Maybe it is Nal Hutta and they simply got the color wrong for that background, or that planet's just a nameless planet in Nal Hutta's system? It didn't seem like Goto's Yacht had gone very far from Nar Shaddaa, so it couldn't be something completely different and significant...

I don't remember that being a part of it, actually.

Still, G0-T0 being the one responsible for the HK-50s' production, as well as the events of HK-47's infiltration of the Droid Factory, were only in content which didn't ultimately make it into the game. Because of this, it may not actually apply so much, as far as Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III could be concerned. I remember reading somewhere online that there was a brief magazine article a few months after the release of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords in which it was said that the next sequel would "further explore the HK-50 subplot". Assuming G0-T0 was possibly destroyed along with Bao-Dur's Remote and Malachor V itself (in the Light Side ending), and thus wouldn't be returning, I imagine the opportunity to come up with another explanation for the origins of the HK-50s could be taken, instead of still going with G0-T0 being behind it.

I seem to recall there being some dialogue (cut from the game and found on the disc) revealing that G0-T0 was in fact behind the HK-50 series after all. I guess they really were created simply to track down and capture the Exile.

"NJO" refers to the specific series of nineteen novels, called The New Jedi Order. It's the Yuuzhan Vong invasion time period. I'm assuming that's what the thread creator meant.

I don't think I would agree with this. Kreia was a bitter and tragic individual, but her affection and admiration for the Exile ultimately seemed geniune to me and an important element of her character, and certainly deeper than one based on nothing but "scientific observation". In any case, I think people also tend to oversimplify the events of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords when they go to analyze Kreia's character. In the case of, say, the deaths of the Jedi Masters, you can't just mention the final outcome and Kreia's general response (or level of participation); you have to examine her specific dialogue and consider the sequence of events and how they played out. Along the Dark Side path through the game, when it came time to "meet the reunited Jedi Masters" on Dantooine and only Kreia was there, she spoke of having sought to achieve her victory over them through words and truth, through proving that she (her teachings and her philosophies) was right and they were wrong, by presenting them with the Exile and what he represented about the Force and its limitations. She desired a more profound victory than one achieved through needless death or destruction, and, on Dantooine, she scolded the Exile for their deaths because he had slaughtered them right off the bat, and only for the sake of revenge, rather than "beating" them with knowledge and wisdom. She felt the Exile's triumph -- of vengeance and bloodthirst -- against them was meaningless and empty by comparison. On a more personal level, the idea of overcoming the surviving members of the Jedi Council through proving herself to be right was probably important to her, and the victory the Exile achieved through death and destruction robbed her of even the attempt at seeing it through. Some people might now be thinking, "Well, that's all fine and dandy, Grant, but she did kill them, along the Light Side path through the game." First, though, look at how the scene on Dantooine, with the reunited Jedi Masters alive and well there, actually played out. Kreia did not interfere with the Exile's confrontation with them until they threatened, insisted on, and ultimately outright started to, severe his connection to the Force all over again. As far as Kreia was concerned, they had proven their stubborn ignorance and, through their insistence on taking action to neutralize the Exile without understanding the truth of the situation, they had become dangerous. They were not only about to cast aside the only individual apparently capable of bringing down the destructive and shadowy threat posed by Darth Nihilus, but about to "destroy" what was most precious to her (the Exile) for what she felt his existence and condition represented about the truth of life, the Force, and the human spirit. The more profound victory -- of truth and understanding -- that she sought could not be achieved, because the Jedi Masters refused to recognize what she felt the Exile represented, and then her hand was forced to stop them. Plus, the Jedi Masters' decision and stubborn mentality clearly angered Kreia, which was why she chose to kill them by removing them from the Force ("See the universe! See it through the eyes of the Exile!"), making them "see" what she wanted them to...sort of. Anyway, it's not really as simple as saying, "Well, Kreia completely contradicted herself, because, along this path, she killed the Jedi Masters herself, but, along that path, she scolded the Exile for killing them." There was more to the situation, and more of a difference between the Exile's motives for killing the Jedi Masters and Kreia's, than that. EDIT: Also, there is, of course, something to be said for the suggestion that Kreia's judgments of the Exile were made in comparison not just to herself, but to her expectations of him and her hopes of molding him into the great individual she knew he could become. She didn't want him to become an exact duplicate of herself anyway; she wanted him to become more than she was.

Well, personally, I don't really like the idea that the Jedi Masters had fallen to the Dark Side of the Force. All that would do is further promote an "everyone is either good (true Jedi) or evil (true Sith) and nothing else" point of view, which would appear to be the opposite of what this game was trying to convey otherwise. I just think it was more interesting that the Jedi Masters really were Jedi Masters (as opposed to "Dark Jedi"), but that that still neither made them automatically "right" somehow nor made them infallible.

The quote said "mediocre Jedi" there, though, which would mean that it wasn't necessarily a reference to the Exile's power or combat prowess so much as it was to his personality and the more spiritual side of his Jedi Knighthood. The context was there, after all, with "lust for power" and "will lead to the dark side" popping in right after. Really, "average student of the Force" could have been said with that very same meaning. Being a Jedi has frequently been expressed to be more than simply mastering one's use of and sensitivity to the Force. Spiritual and moral aspects of the Jedi Order seemed pretty significant in the life of a Jedi. Saying that someone was a "bad Jedi" could mean that, regardless of however much power or mastery they had acquired and achieved, they were perceived as having faltered in meeting other "standards" for living one's life as a Jedi. EDIT: Although I suppose I should wait to reach that point in the game again and see the rest of the conversation between he and Master Vandar again before I continue making judgments here.

Well, to be honest, I wasn't referring to your choices of Ziost and Khar Delba (I haven't actually heard of those worlds), so much as the inclusion of Alderaan and Sleheyron on your list. Personally, I've been thinking of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III taking place in the Unknown Regions for more than just its finale, and I think it would be more interesting to take such an opportunity to allow players to explore planets never before seen or heard of, rather than simply visiting worlds which fans of the Expanded Universe are already familiar with (like Alderaan or Sleheyron).

Well, "known about", maybe, but not necessarily spoken of or visited on any frequent basis. As I recall, flying through uncharted regions of space was said to be dangerous. So, even if characters like Revan and the Exile venture out there once, the worlds they visit might not exactly become hot tourist spots thereafter. Particularly true with Revan and the Exile, since their "war" has become one of relative shadow and secrecy. It wasn't as though they had a huge following of Galactic Republic troops and explorers going with them. The "Unknown Planet" from the first game was located in the Unknown Regions, as I recall, just beyond the Outer Rim, but it wasn't as though anyone spoke about it in any novel or story set after. Grand Admiral Thrawn ventured out into the Unknown Regions (I think for several years) and I don't think any of the planets he visited became common knowledge throughout the galaxy thereafter (not that there was much opportunity to sit down and chat with the man). I wouldn't find it too implausible that planets visited in the Unknown Regions weren't any that were mentioned in stories set thereafter on the timeline.

Wouldn't that list of planets ignore the fact that Revan and the Exile went into the Unknown Regions, though? Personally, I was thinking it'd be more interesting if Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III took the "Unknown Regions" opportunity to allow for the player to visit planets potentially never before even seen or spoken of in the rest of the Expanded Universe, rather than simply going to already-known worlds within the boundaries of the rest of the Expanded Universe's exploration.

That wasn't entirely what I was referring to. Did you bother to converse with the other party members at all? Kreia had several things to say about Revan long before the final exchange, as did Atton Rand, Bao-Dur, Disciple, Mandalore, HK-47, T3-M4 (sort of, through its hologram messages), and even G0-T0. The Jedi Masters (including Master Atris) may have had some words to offer about the character as well, but I don't recall in their case. Even the Exile's dialogue options at various points throughout the game mentioned -- and offered insight on -- Revan's character. Are you ignoring that in an attempt to emphasize your point and undermine mine or did you truly miss it all?

Did I just misunderstand the context of this*, then? *whilst keeping with the only consistency provided by the game, that being a total lack of any substance. Why should the character have to appear in person to be "advanced and built upon"? Revan was mentioned frequently in dialogue throughout the game (particularly in dialogue with the other party members). A lot of that dialogue shed new light, offered new perspectives and insight, on various aspects of the character (the circumstances of Revan's original fall to the Dark Side of the Force, Revan's intentions with the Jedi Civil War, and so on) and it conveyed a sense that Revan's actions and legacy were enough to leave their mark on the galaxy five years later. On top of that, Revan was a significant aspect of the Exile's backstory and character development. It certainly didn't seem to me that the writers "dropped" Revan's character just because the character never appeared in person. Revan's "presence" in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords was actually something that's stuck with me most about the game.

I don't quite see how you can say the ending wasn't written under the assumption that there was going to be another sequel "someday". In relation to the fates of the other characters, sure, one could chalk it up to poor writing or cut content, whichever of the two, but I'm referring to the "Into the Unknown Regions, the Exile goes" aspect of the ending. Given that it was the end of the Exile's personal journey and the apparent dawn of a "whole new adventure", it seemed pretty clear that it was there as a cliffhanger to lead in to a following installment, not simply a poorly-written conclusion (let me finish) somehow intended to bring an end to the entire series as a whole. Forgive me if I don't fully share your pessimism on the subject, though.

Well, I was disappointed by the ending, although not so much as others have seemed to be. My problem didn't lie with what was there so much as what wasn't there, such as particularly the awkward disappearance of most of the other party members. I geniunely enjoyed what was done with the final confrontation with Kreia and I thought the atmosphere of Malachor V and the Trayus Academy was great, but it certainly felt like more should have happened. Not in a forced "there should have been an epic battle there" sense (as I actually loved the darker and "quieter" approach), but simply in the sense of bringing the other party members into the picture and...just...allowing more events to occur. I suppose that outlook of mine would apply to the climax as a whole, from the reunion of the Jedi Masters on Dantooine onward, rather than only Malachor V, actually. Still, as I said, my problem was not with what was there. It simply felt like there should have been more to it, like there was a rush from event to event, even though I truly enjoyed what events there were. The "cliffhanger" aspect of the ending didn't bother me much at all, though. Sure, I can't guarantee that there'll be a Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III, but the ending was obviously crafted assuming there would be (and there's no guarantee that there won't be at this point either) and I didn't mind that. It did remind me of Star Wars: Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back and I felt it was an interesting and reasonable point at which to bring the game to a close, for leading in to the potential sequel.

Err...I'm sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to clear something up. Well, I didn't mean that any piece of the Exile's inner darkness or anything went into the-man-who-would-become-Darth-Nihilus, so much as just that the sudden severing of the Exile's Force bond with his comrade (because of the Exile's rejection of the Force itself) warped the man in some way.

Well, of course, the easiest answer would be the fact that the Force bond between the Exile and Kreia was generally always portrayed as uniquely potent. It could be that "feeling the Force again through someone else" wouldn't've been possible through any less powerful a Force bond. Beyond that, on the Trayus Core at Malachor V, Kreia hinted that she was directly responsible for "reconnecting" the Exile to the Force, with a line that went something like, "It was a mistake to bring the Force back to you, I see that now..." It could be possible that she forced the Force (err) through to the Exile through their bond.

They'd've also had a hard time giving Revan any spoken dialogue. I'd say the Exile was certainly "close" enough to Revan to have seen him in person and spoken with him and whatnot, but I'm reluctant to say that they were close in the sense of any kind of friendship. Their relationship, in the sense of their outward interactions, seemed to have been described and hinted at as being more as that of simply commander and general, rather than of actual friends. From thoughts I've heard around forums on the 'net and from what I recall of the hints and clues given in the game itself, Revan had had his eye on the Exile for some time throughout the Mandalorian Wars (even so far as having actually wanted the Exile to return to Coruscant to confront the Jedi Council), even with the Exile entirely unaware of it at the time. For that revelation to have had the most impact, the Exile's relationship with Revan would have to have been relatively impartial from the Exile's end, I think: Builded more on respect, admiration, empathy with Revan's (apparent) cause, and "all business" loyalty at the time than on real personal fondness. Still, it seemed clear enough that it was Malak whom was personally responsible for recruiting the Exile in the first place, not Revan.

It's simply difficult for me to embrace that idea because the Exile's loss was not described as though he lost a "part" of the Force or a "piece" of his own soul (figuratively on the latter, perhaps). It was said that he severed his connections and ties with the Force itself altogether. Actually, the Exile's sudden "reconnection" with the Force was briefly explained through Kreia's dialogue at one point. I think it was during the journey on the Ebon Hawk after leaving Peragus II. She said that the cause was his Force bond with her; he could feel the Force, distantly, through her. That spark of a distant connection was enough to get the Exile started on the path to building on his power once again, through Kreia's training and the other oddity he seemed to acquire from Malachor V (the ability to "feed" on death), even though he still seemed to lack any direct connection between the Force and his own being. Still, the idea that Darth Nihilus carried some deeper, even more personal significance to the Exile is interesting. Personally, though, I would be more inclined to explore an idea along the lines of Darth Nihilus having been perhaps one of the Exile's Jedi comrades during the Mandalorians Wars with whom he shared a connection through the Force (as the Exile was prone to establishing) and, when so many other Jedi died at Malachor V and -- consequently -- pushed the Exile to cut himself off from the Force itself, the abrupt cut-off to the Force connection between he and the-man-who-would-become-Darth-Nihilus had a uniquely ill effect on the latter, which was what stripped him of his individuality or was at least what began that change within him. From what was described in the game's dialogue, though, it seemed to me that, realistically, Darth Nihilus' loss of individuality was simply the result of his hunger's will consuming and overpowering his own.

Hahaha. You think about the significance and meaning behind lightsaber colors almost as much as I do. Well, to be honest, I imagine the colors of Revan's lightsabers were chosen simply because red and violet were the two "darkest" colors and the designers simply wanted more variety in the specter, and two red lightsabers would mean too much red in their opinion and wouldn't look as interesting. On a "thinking even deeper than the designers" level, though, I don't know. I've generally regarded violet as the "neutral" or "balanced" lightsaber color as well (since purple is the combination of blue and red), but if the intention was to convey any sort of "Revan was beyond either side of the Force" feeling, it would've worked out better for his lightsabers to have been just blue and red or for him to have just one lightsaber, a violet one. Red and violet together didn't seem to lend themselves to any deeper meaning than just "they were two dark colors and looked good for a Dark Side character". I don't mean to start a debate here, but I don't think the Exile and Darth Nihilus were quite as similar in their "wound conditions" as most people seem to have come to assume. The Exile's "condition" seemed to be the result of more than one event. He became a "wound" within the Force because he rejected it (but it was Malachor V itself that instilled his "ability" to increase his power through war and death, through taking the lives of others). He was "free" of the Force's manipulating will, according to Kreia, simply because all his ties to it had been severed, completely and utterly. It left him as a dead spot within the Force. (For all intents and purposes, one could say he was just about as close to being "undead" as one could get in the Star Wars universe. ) Darth Nihilus was never really expressed to have been like that. Darth Nihilus lost his humanity and became "more presence than man", but he did not seem to reject the Force. It was the power of Malachor V itself that seemed to twist his being (as it tainted the Exile's, on a smaller scale), not any such rejection of the Force. Of course, as I said, Malachor V tainted both the Exile and Darth Nihilus, and that was where the two of them seemed to be most similar.

That's an interesting thought. I wouldn't say the impossibility of the Exile's choice going any other way was because he wasn't "dark" enough, though. Remember, his subconscious -- and symbolic -- rejection of following Revan into the Dark Side of the Force was actually a part of what drove him to reject the Force itself altogether. It could simply be that he was "always destined" to reject the Force in that manner, to become a living void within the Force, and so it was never within him to accept or embrace the insidious power of Malachor V because that wasn't what he was "meant" to do. I don't know...I'll think more about that sort of thing. Of course, the more realistic idea would probably be that the writers simply didn't think that that little confrontation with the specter of Revan was enough to warrant any significant choice on the player's part, or that they decided it was important enough to the more linear side of the Exile's character development to not allow the player to interfere, or that they actually intended for it to come across as more ominous somehow than simply a confrontation with the Exile's past and so they didn't give the player any other ways of getting through the event. Actually, I think Revan's lightsabers were red and violet, weren't they?