Grant Dempsey

I wouldn't say it was weak on Bioware's part. It just seemed to be an aspect of the Star Wars mythology in general. Even during the Clone Wars, Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters took up high-ranking positions among the Galactic Republic's armies and starfleets, even becoming generals and commanders.

Frankly, I'm surprised by how many people don't seem to want Revan to make any sort of reappearance. I definetly would like him (and the Exile) to play a role in the next game, and, while I definetly loved the characters for their own sake, it's also more than that. I would like them to return for the sake of the series' storytelling as a whole. Dropping or ignoring the storyline begun by Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, and shooting off into some other era entirely would just strike me as sloppy and kind of irresponsible, not to mention very disappointing. At this point, I really want to see what happens next in this series' storyline, with these characters.

In the Dark Side ending, Kreia said, "You are not a Sith...not truly, and it is for that that I love you." (In the Light Side ending, Kreia said, "You are not a Jedi...not truly, and it is for that that I love you," too, as I recall.)

Erm...still would be grateful to anyone with a clip...

Err...what do you mean by "sucked in"? Just because I didn't immediately come to regard it as "the stupidest thing I've ever heard of"? All I did was try to explain how it might not actually be a contradiction.

Would it really be a "contradiction", though? From what I've heard, the incident in which the Sith were thought to have gone extinct was when the Galactic Republic launched an orbital bombardment against Korriban. Would it really be too contradictory -- toward the Expanded Universe -- for this game to have revealed that perhaps some "true" Sith managed to survive or escape that incident and live on? At the very least, Naga Sadow already managed to do so, but was (presumably) killed by Freedon Nadd many, many years later.

Well, I remember that one of the Exile's dialogue options while first entering the Sith Academy on Korriban was, "Get in there, you big furry oaf. I don't care what you smell," if you brought Hanharr along...

That might not be the exact wording but you can see how K2 blatantly contradicts it. (Granted, they haven't proven they exist, and I hope they never do, but they've sold the idea pretty hard and many people have bought it) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wouldn't call it a "contradiction" so much as a "revelation" (assuming Kreia truly even meant the species when she mentioned "True Sith"). Y'know, a plot twist. It wasn't there to ignore what was said previously about the species having gone into extinction. It was there to "reveal" that the species was assumed to be extinct, by the Galactic Republic and the Jedi Order, and that that was simply not actually the case (as perhaps a group of them had managed to escape what would have been their doom a long, long time ago and began "rebuilding" their empire in the Unknown Regions or something).

Well, I suppose where we disagree would be in the idea that Kreia lost her interest value as a character in the game's finale. Kreia's role in the storyline certainly switched from that of "party member" to "antagonist to be confronted" rather quickly, but I don't think that detracted from her character. Her desire to force the Exile into a "the apprentice versus the master" confrontation on Malachor V didn't come across as forced or poorly constructed in itself to me. I thought it seemed fitting and, in a way, complimented some of the other seemingly-tragic elements about her character. Besides, it would appear that, while we may disagree over the exact "how" and "why" about it (such as her actual intentions at Malachor V), we do agree that Kreia wasn't generally "evil" in any black-and-white sense and was, in some ways, actually compassionate. At the same time, however, her methods -- even in "teaching" another -- were harsh. Forcing the Exile into a situation where his only options were to "break" or to fight back and kill her seemed fitting in that regard as well. She didn't really strike me as the type who would have ended the Exile's "training" with a friendly pat on the back and a, "Go get 'em, tiger." Well...alright, in a sense, she did anyway, but not without forcing him to leave her with a fatal wound first. Well, if we were to consider the Exile's own dialogue (options), reasons of the sort that I mentioned did seem to be an explicit part of his reasons for going to Malachor V. After all, two of his dialogue options when first approaching Kreia at the Trayus Core were, "I have come to kill you, Kreia," (arguably a dialogue option for Dark Side characters) and, "Kreia, it's not too late. You can still be saved," or something along those lines (pretty clearly a dialogue option for Light Side characters). The Exile's own reasons for traveling to Malachor V to confront Kreia did seem to go beyond simply "not wanting to die through Kreia's suicide" (even though I'm sure that only gave him more incentive to go anyway). Activating the Mass-Shadow Generator "or" claiming Malachor V for himself somehow did seem to factor into his reasons for traveling to Malachor V as well, since he knew even before going that Malachor V itself was corrupt with extremely powerful dark energies. Again, when first approaching her at the Trayus Core, two of the Exile's dialogue options were, "Malachor will survive...but you will not," (presumably for Dark Side characters) and, "This Academy won't last, Kreia. I can activate the Mass-Shadow Generator again," or something like that (presumably for Light Side characters). The fact that Bao-Dur's Remote was all ready to go when it popped out of the Ebon Hawk and that G0-T0 knew in advance to follow it certainly made it seem like activating -- or disabling -- the Mass-Shadow Generator was a part of the plan in the first place. Furthermore, the revelation that Malachor V was the "base" from which Darth Sion and his followers were launching their strikes against the galaxy was certainly brought up before the game itself actually moved there (to Malachor V). "Ending the threat of the Sith" -- which extended beyond Kreia alone, even at that point in time -- certainly seemed to be a part of what drew the Exile and company to Malachor V as well. I didn't mean to imply before that Kreia's threat of "double suicide" was really the biggest draw for the Exile. It seemed like it was simply there to give the Exile further incentive, in case he really began to consider refusing to go at all. Either way, I don't mean for this to come across as though I'm really trying to argue against you here. I'm just looking at this as a friendly discussion. So, I apologize if I'm coming across as edgy or anything.

Well, I wouldn't be immediately inclined to agree with that. Personally, I really enjoyed the ideas and themes that this game introduced, including the new perspective(s) on the nature of the Force itself. I wouldn't say that the game offered nothing or even that Kreia's dialogue was particularly self-contradictory or hollow of meaning. What was the Exile supposed to do otherwise, spend the rest of his life in a bar on Coruscant? He had been "betrayed" by someone he apparently trusted and came under the impression that Kreia was, in actuality, a Sith Lord. Aligned with the Light Side of the Force, it wouldn't be too ridiculous to assume that the Exile would have wanted to follow Kreia to Malachor V to see if she could be "saved" or "redeemed" or even simply to end the current threat of the Sith. Kreia wasn't the only potential threat either, after all; there was also still Darth Sion and his followers to deal with. The Exile had just been informed that Malachor V was not only the base from which Darth Sion and his Sith were striking, but an entity of extremely powerful darkness in itself. Activating the Mass-Shadow Generator might have been a part of the plan in going there in the first place, for the sake of ridding the galaxy of Malachor V itself once and for all. Aligned with the Dark Side of the Force, it wouldn't be too ridiculous to assume that the Exile would have wanted to follow Kreia to Malachor V simply to kill her as vengeance for "betraying" him, as well as -- potentially -- to claim the Trayus Academy and the dark power of Malachor V for himself. I wouldn't say it would've made more sense for the Exile to let himself die...

Well, hey, I'm sorry you felt it was so poorly written, but what's the point of a discussion like this if we're not going to actually examine and consider the actual dialogue from the game itself? Because I suppose Kreia wanted the Exile to surpass her and to prove it to her by killing her in a final confrontation between master and apprentice, as well as for that very showdown to serve as the Exile's final test in itself. Beyond even their confrontation, even simply forcing the Exile to "confront" Malachor V itself seemed to be an important final step in the "training" Kreia had for him. Her lessons and trials certainly weren't limited to helping him to "build up his raw power" or something. A lot of it was more philosophical than just passing on techniques. She sought to pass on her teachings and philosophies altogether, and to help (force) him to confront his past, and to push him through certain preconceptions he may have held about the nature of the Force and whatnot. I don't actually recall Atris saying that Kreia's threat to the Exile was connected to her "plan to kill the Force" or that Kreia would have only killed herself if the Exile was on Malachor V. I was under the impression that Kreia's threat -- that she would kill herself and, consequently, the Exile (through their bond) -- was to be in the case that the Exile refused to go to Malachor V to meet her. Y'know, like, "Come to meet me on Malachor V. If you don't come to meet me there, I will kill the both of us and all will have been in vain. So, if you don't want to die, you'd better come." I do remember Atris mentioning something separately about Kreia planning to destroy the Force and "needing" the Exile at Malachor V to do it, but that would appear to have been contradicted by the fact that that didn't seem to be Kreia's actual intention on Malachor V. One could argue that Kreia had told Atris a lie, knowing that Atris would pass it on to the Exile. If the Exile were informed that Kreia's intention was to destroy the Force, it would have given him more incentive to actually follow her to Malachor V to confront her.

There was no indication in the game itself that what Kreia said was intended to come across as "a sack of crap". Frankly, Kreia was probably our best source of information in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords when it came to Revan. It clearly wasn't all intended to be, "Oh, Wacky Insane Kreia's at it again with her foolishness!" or anything like that; it was a pretty clear offering of insight into Revan's character. So, like I said, feel free to ignore what was said, if you would really prefer to do so, I guess, but you can't then really expect your perspective to become the standard.

Well, it's not actually a "theory"; at least, not the part about Kreia having sought to train the Exile. Did you follow her dialogue trees on Malachor V? It was what she was doing throughout much of the game, with all her "lies" and manipulations, whilst taking care of "other things" along the way. Kreia's "ultimate goal" was quite simply to train the Exile, to forge him into the greatest of her apprentices. Her hope beyond that was that the Exile would choose to follow Revan into the Unknown Regions to assist him in confronting the "True" Sith, but she did not seek to actually impose that hope upon him. It was enough of a reward to her that he had surpassed her at all.

You can't just shrug everything aside like that. What about the Exile? He was the living representation of what Kreia would have wanted for the galaxy as a whole. He had severed all of his ties to the Force, so much so that his only hope of rebuilding his connection with it was to do so through a Force bond with another being (Kreia), yet...he still lived, even without it. That was exactly why the Exile was so important to Kreia. It was proof, to her, that life could exist without the Force, that it was at least possible, which gave her hope. She had no interest in destroying all life everywhere. In fact, compassion on some level was what drove her "vision for the galaxy" to begin with, as she loathed the Force for imposing its will upon the galaxy solely to achieve some form of "balance" while letting so many die in the process. I don't even like to call her "insane" or "delusional" because all it does is take away from the point of her character and to serve as an excuse to conveniently shrug aside things she has said. Really, in my opinion, she never had any intention of or "plan" for destroying the Force. It was her personal vision for "a better galaxy", yes...her dream and hope, yes...but not her ultimate goal over the course of the game. She didn't lure the Exile to Malachor V to "use him to kill the Force". She lured the Exile to Malachor V because it was to be his "final test": Confronting both Kreia and the Malachor V from his past. Her "ultimate goal" was to die by the Exile's hands, as the final step in his training.

I ran a search, but I didn't come across any actual clips of his voice. I'd really be very grateful to whoever can post one for me. I don't have the PC version of the game (just the XBox version) and, even if I did, I wouldn't actually know how to extract audio files and whatnot myself...

Kreia never really wanted to "destroy the Force" in the way it seems most people would think. Her ultimate goal was not to end all life everywhere; heck, she even criticized Darth Nihilus for spreading such death across the galaxy. Kreia's goal -- or rather, her dream, her hope, her personal vision for the galaxy -- was essentially for life to be "freed" from the influence and manipulation of the will of the Force, to be forced to live without the Force.

She never wanted to destroy all life.

Well...that wasn't exactly what I meant, though.

Well, I don't think anyone can deny that he was "on" the Dark Side of the Force while he was "Darth Revan". Whether it was a sacrifice and he allowed himself to fall or it was plain ol' corruption, he still became "aligned" with the Dark Side of the Force. (Even along the former branch -- the idea that Revan allowed himself to fall knowingly -- if the Dark Side of the Force had not changed him at all, how would it have even been a "sacrifice"? What would he have lost if he was completely in control and had not changed?) So, I suppose the question here should be, "How far do you think he was into the Dark Side of the Force and what do you believe were the true circumstances of his fall?"

Why would that even have to be true? Shouldn't it depend more on the person's intentions and motives and whatnot? It would be like saying that every Supreme Chancellor was "evil" because they decided to run for office at all...or that the Jedi Order was "evil" for putting itself in the position of the Galactic Republic's primary "keepers of the peace". This would be where the absolute truth of Revan's actions, intentions, and motives have been made somewhat unclear, though. Kreia's dialogue certainly -- and quite blatantly -- implied that there was more to Revan's fall to the Dark Side of the Force than just plain ol' "corruption" and that his ultimate goal may have been to defend the galaxy the entire time. However, from other sources, including several who knew Revan first-hand (such as Atton Rand and HK-47), it was clear that Revan wasn't very "goody-two-shoes" about getting things done, certainly. I guess this would be a bit like the question, "If you could develop a cure that would end cancer all around the world, but would require sacrificing an innocent child to do so, would you sacrifice that child?" I do like the idea that the Dark Side of the Force did change him, even if he remained in control enough to prevent himself from becoming too far gone (such as by keeping himself from using the Star Forge beyond a certain point to avoid its influence and such), and it even seemed to be the case (even Kreia implied that he was indeed changed to some degree on the surface). I don't, however, like the idea that he just grew into an average Sith Lord, into Exar Kun all over again, and that really didn't seem to be the case. You would have to ignore what Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords revealed about him, which is certainly your right, I guess, but you can't expect everyone else to rush to agree with you. (Besides, heck, if there was ever anything that Revan seemed to be "obsessed" with, I would say it was knowledge, more than power...judging from Kreia's assessment of him. After all, according to Kreia, during his time with the Jedi Order, before he left for the Mandalorian Wars, he went from place to place, from mentor to mentor, in relentless pursuit of knowledge, to learn all that he could learn. Though, of course, "power is knowledge and knowledge is power", which seemed especially true in the mythology of Star Wars, so I suppose one could argue that...)

Personally, I tend to prefer avoiding really declaring characters to be "good" or "evil" and trying instead to just examine them on more of a case-by-case sort of basis. So, right off the bat, I wouldn't feel very content to just say, "Revan just became evil, that's all," and leave it all at that. That said, no, I didn't think Revan was "just another Sith Lord". I don't really see why anyone would even prefer that over how his character was portrayed through, say, Kreia's dialogue. Why would you just want another Exar Kun? Sure, Revan may have been a departure from the usual "black-and-white" setup in Star Wars (which even the prequel trilogy blurred and greyed anyway), but it was geniunely interesting. To be honest, it wasn't until I'd heard all that dialogue about him throughout Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords that I'd really come to appreciate his character on a truly deep level. In my opinion, what happened to Revan was that he was neither truly a Jedi Knight nor truly a Sith Lord. He was something more -- and simply different -- than either of those affiliations. I believe that his motives and intentions were always, deep down, to defend the galaxy, but that he was a very "the ends justify the means" willing-to-do-whatever-he-saw-as-necessary kind of person. I think he did fall to the Dark Side of the Force in some sense, but I also think he was aware of it, and beyond just in a, "Mwahaha, I'm growing more powerful!" kind of way. I think he let himself fall to the Dark Side of the Force, believing that only by doing so could he acquire the means to strengthen and prepare the galaxy. I do believe he wasn't entirely in control of himself, though. Enough to keep himself from falling completely, certainly, but I'm sure it still changed him on some level, still affected him. Do I believe Revan was a pure follower of the Light Side and the Jedi Order? Of course not. Do I believe Revan was an entirely corrupt being adhering to the Dark Side and completely loyal to the Sith Order, though? Not exactly. Uh...SPOILER ALERT FOR BATMAN BEGINS!!!:

...an audio clip of Darth Nihilus talking? An audio clip of his Movie scene with Visas Marr or something, maybe? I'd really appreciate it.

Mmm... I voted Anakin/Padme, but, in reality, it'd probably be a tie for me, too: Between that and Revan/Bastila. Well, I don't really know, actually. When I hear Across the Stars, I tend to associate it with the game in general, not Revan and Bastila specifically (or even any other romance possibility). Yeah, its use in the trailer was pretty effectively memorable.

Revan's character wasn't "rewritten" either. Information was simply added to his backstory, where it was plausible and open for such, not really "changed". Revan's reasons -- and motives -- behind his original fall to the Dark Side of the Force weren't particularly laid out in the original anyway. They were left relatively ambiguous and mysterious, so there was certainly room there for more to be revealed.

Well, personally, I'm used to -- and a big fan of -- more "console-style" RPGs. Y'know, along the lines of Final Fantasy, Xenogears, Shadow Hearts, and so on, and a lot of those kinds of RPGs generally don't delve into a complete choice-and-consequence experience. They're pretty linear, offering a relatively preset story-based experience. So, I never really found fault when it came to points in the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic games at which the player's choices didn't factor in as much. I focused more on the storyline and the scenes for what they were, along with the atmosphere. The player's choices should -- and would, had the "cut content" actually made it into the game -- have affected more, I suppose, but that wouldn't be the sort of thing I'd hinge my entire decision on.