Grant Dempsey

Warning: This post will probably contain major spoilers from the Knights of the Old Republic games. I would prefer that the main character of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III be someone new. As Blaise Russel said, Revan and the Exile's individual character development had been pretty much resolved by the end of their respective storylines, and it would be interesting to follow the story of a new character now. Personally, though, I would hope that this new third main character not simply be a "nobody" who "just happened" to be Force Sensitive; I would like to see another main character with a relatively preset backstory and/or identity, for the sake of intriguing character development, and an interesting and engaging storyline (which would hopefully continue the series' trend for plot twists and mysteries). (That was what I loved so much about playing as the Exile. Obsidian Entertainment really managed to blend the experience of nonlinearity with actual character development in such a truly magnificent way.) I wouldn't at all mind if Revan and the Exile reappeared some other way, though, since they still apparently had some role to play in confronting the "true" Sith Empire. Perhaps as NPCs, if the issue regarding their levels and power in gameplay could be solved somehow. There could still be some material for character development as NPCs, after all. Revan's relationship with Carth or Bastila (possibly even Canderous as a Dark Side female) and how Revan dealt with leaving them behind, or something. And fighting alongside Revan again, as he (or she) did during the Mandalorian Wars, could provide material for the Exile's character development as an NPC, or perhaps something else. Regarding the subjectivity of their classes and specific skills and abilities, though, I pictured Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III beginning with a "prologue" similar to Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords' prologue sequence with T3-M4 repairing the Ebon Hawk. This prologue sequence would "star" Revan, in some mysterious location (that would be yet unknown to the player until the player would revisit the area later on into the game) in the Unknown Regions, wearing those robes with the mask that he (or she) wore whenever the character was shown in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic before the actual revelation (or some variation of those robes anyway). At the beginning of the prologue sequence (which would come after the player already selected the class, attributes, skills, abilities, etc. for the main character, as usual), the player would be prompted to do the same for Revan, choosing a class and whatnot, possibly even an alignment. (Like I said, I'm not certain how Revan's level and power in gameplay could be solved through this exactly.) Then, the player would play out Revan's small prologue sequence, throughout which Revan would wear those robes, effectively obscuring his or her physical appearance. After Revan's, maybe a similar sort of prologue sequence could play out for the Exile, who would also wear clothing obscuring his or her physical appearance for the duration. Then, later on into the game, when the player met Revan and the Exile again, for when they would actually join the party as NPCs or simply be there as characters to speak to (or fight or whatever), there would be a sequence during which they would "unmask" themselves, at which point the scene would then cut to a portrait selection menu, listing the proper list of available portraits for the two characters (from their respective games). Or hell, perhaps Revan and the Exile wouldn't be NPCs in the new main character's party, but rather separate characters entirely in some way that the player would control for certain special events or locations throughout Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic III when the storyline would allow. That way, their dialogue options could even be selected by the player throughout those events, returning the nonlinearity of the characters' personalities and possibly eliminating the need for voice acting for their characters. With that, the game could potentially satisfy those who might've wanted to play as a new main character, those who might've wanted to "reprise" their role(-playing) as Revan or the Exile, and even those who simply wanted to keep Revan and the Exile's personalities and physical appearance and so on subjective to themselves in either case. Ah, anyway, I'm sorry for the crappy ideas here. I don't know, I'm just...thinking outloud...in text.

I would also like to simply comment on (not debate against) another point you brought up, in another post...wherein you said that Darth Nihilus made a better "bad guy" than Kreia... Well, personally, a major aspect of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords' storyline that appealed to me was the fact that its primary antagonist (Kreia) wasn't simply a traditional villain in the sense that she was immensely powerful (although she was powerful) and out to conquer or destroy the galaxy for no other particular reason than because she was "evil". The lines of good and evil were blurred in this game, especially with Kreia (and the Jedi Masters), and that really appealed to me. It's actually become sort of a "trend" in story-driven videogames lately, I've noticed; blurring the lines of good and evil. Personally, I actually find it incredibly refreshing for an antagonist's opposing point of view and/or motive(s) to be almost relatable and understandable, sympathetic, for the player, rather than simply "evil" and detached. I much preferred Kreia as a character to Darth Nihilus, for what she brought to the storyline. And, by the way, I apologize, everyone, for my massive post (and for my double-posting). :"> Given the apparent lengths of my replies in this particular discussion, I might just try to refrain from participating a bit, if for no other reason than to spare others. "

The reason I keep saying it, then, I suppose, is the fact that you keep emphasizing how you felt the final confrontation with Kreia was "boring" because it had "endless dialogue" and a lack of an "epic" atmosphere. It just seems to me like you have yet to really specify how the climax could have been helped -- in the sense of the storytelling (not just the atmosphere) -- by switching the confrontations with Darth Traya and Darth Nihilus. I mean, you seem to explain it somewhat, when you refer to Darth Nihilus as the "biggest bad guy", but he really just didn't seem to be -- assuming we're talking about the game itself here, not the advertising. Just because Darth Nihilus was a figure of extraordinary power, it didn't automatically mean he was presented or portrayed as the primary antagonist (even if he may have posed the largest "threat to the galaxy" of the characters in the storyline). To me, the Exile's relationship with Kreia seemed to be a much larger conflict in the storyline than Darth Nihilus' rampaging was. P.S. Regarding Kreia's "endless dialogue" during the Exile's final confrontation with her, since when was this game not a primarily dialogue-driven RPG? Y'know, I've heard a lot of people bring that up; the thought that everything Kreia said -- even during the final confrontation -- "could" have been complete and utter lies simply because of her previous "half-truths" and manipulations. Personally, I can't help but feel that they missed a major point about her character. The whole point of her character was not that she was a liar and a manipulator, and that the player should feel wholly uncertain about whether or not to trust anything this "insane old woman" ever said. There were times when she was truly honest, when it fit her character to be so (which was actually more often than not), and the final event at the Trayus Core on Malachor V was quite clearly one of those times. She confessed the truth of her motives, her actions, her hopes, and so on. Don't just shrug it all off as automatically untrue or even untrustworthy simply because she "might" have been lying, particularly when the whole point to the dialogue was that it was indeed the "moment of truth" (so to speak) between she and the Exile. Not exactly... What the scene with Carth (and potentially Bastila) on Telos' Citadel Station did was simply further the mystery of Revan's departure from all known space and really only explore Revan's relationships with those particular characters. On the other hand, Kreia's final moments of dialogue actually seemed to resolve said mystery and actually explored Revan's own reasons for leaving, not to mention provide insight as to why Revan left his loved ones and allies behind. It seemed to be the much more fitting course to take -- for the sake of the storytelling -- in how to balance the information that the two scenes offered. Now, that is an idea that really appeals to me. Not as the game's conclusion or epilogue, but simply as the "Revan fell to the Dark Side of the Force" branch's equivalent to the "Revan returned to the Light Side of the Force" branch's scene with Carth (and potentially Bastila) on Telos' Citadel Station. It would have been an interesting opportunity for "Mandalore" to unmask himself, and for Canderous to provide some insight into the personality of "Revan the Sith Lord" and such (whereas Carth -- and Bastila -- spoke only of "Revan the Jedi Knight"). Then again, the Dark Side path already really had its equivalent to those scenes on Telos' Citadel Station: Bastila's recordings on the Sith Holocron in Korriban's Sith Academy... Saving the galaxy from Darth Nihilus wasn't the storyline's main focus, though. It was one of the storyline's major conflicts, certainly, but not the main conflict. As others have said in this thread before me, the storyline's main focus -- its main conflict -- instead seemed to be the Exile's journey of "rediscovery" through confronting unresolved, lingering pieces of his past (of which Malachor V seemed to be the most haunting), as well as the Exile's relationship with Kreia and the training she put him through. Since climaxes are meant to be the culmination points for their storylines' main conflict, it seemed, therefore, that the climax which would have best fit the progression of the storyline, really, would have been the one that was actually there: The Exile's final confrontation with Kreia on Malachor V, during which he resolved his past (having also confronted Malachor V itself in a poetic sense), completed his training, and surpassed his mentor, freeing him to make a choice as to what to do next. It was also the best point at which to conclude the game (with its cliffhanger) because it was pretty much the true turning point for his character, the end of his training and the beginning of his new path. (Please note that I'm not saying the climax -- the scenes on Malachor V -- were handled perfectly (what with the cut content and all), but I support setting the visit to Malachor V as the climax nonetheless.) Furthermore, Malachor V was not only the most haunting unresolved piece of the Exile's past, but also the source of everything that seemed to be happening across the galaxy, the point at which everything had pretty much started. In a very real sense, Malachor V itself as an "entity" -- along with the Trayus Academy on its surface -- posed more of an overall threat to the galaxy than Darth Nihilus himself did. It was where Revan apparently first learned of the "true" Sith Empire's existence beyond the Outer Rim and of the other worlds belonging to the Sith Order, and where he basically began his "fall" to the Dark Side of the Force. It was where the Exile caused the deaths of thousands during the final battle of the Mandalorian Wars and severed his ties to the Force to survive the echoes that resulted. It was where Revan converted so many soldiers and Jedi to his cause during the Jedi Civil War. It was where Kreia first became "Darth Traya". It was the base from which Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion were striking at the galaxy. It was the source of the Exile, Darth Nihilus, and the legions of the Sith's ability to increase their power by "feeding" on war and death. Compared to all of that, Darth Nihilus really was just a man wearing a black cloak and an eerie mask. He had -- for all intents and purposes -- no dialogue and no particular personal connection to the Exile. He possessed the same sort of "feeding" ability as the Exile (admittedly on a much larger scale), which certainly gave him a significant role in the storyline. Just not as significant as Kreia's role, or Malachor V's. Others have called Darth Nihilus a "lackey", which I assume to mean Kreia's lackey (in a poetic sense since he was not in league with her), but he wasn't entirely that; he was Malachor V's "lackey" as well. He had become a sort of living (or not quite so since he lost his humanity) manifestation of the echoes of Malachor V, existing simply to sustain his hunger and spread the echo. Personally, considering Malachor V's significance within the storyline and to the Exile's character, I think it was infintely more dramatic that the Exile's ultimate fate was determined by whether he chose to destroy Malachor V and rid the galaxy of its hideous power and corruptive energies for good or let Malachor V survive with its corruptive energies and hideous power intact (ultimately choosing to either undo and attone for or "accept" and revel in what he caused there), rather than by how he dealt with Darth Nihilus. Leading the Exile from Malachor V back to Telos to confront Darth Nihilus, his so-called "antithesis" (primarily just for the sake of ending the game with an epic space battle and a confrontation with an evil figure of admittedly-immense power), and having his ultimate fate be determined there, simply wouldn't compare to the extreme significance Malachor V itself carried within the storyline and to the way in which the end of the Exile's training led so directly into the cliffhanger ending. Okay, look. Something else I noticed is that you seem to be regarding Darth Nihilus as though he was exactly what Kreia seemed to be training the Exile to confront, as though Darth Nihilus was the true threat looming over the galaxy the whole time. He wasn't. Well, not entirely, anyway. Kreia's intent in training the Exile seemed to be a partial hope that he would follow Revan into the Unknown Regions to find him and fight alongside him against the "true" Sith Empire (which was apparently the true threat and an unimaginable evil). So, in a sense, this entire game was about the Exile "settling his personal issues" before actually heading off into battle. Some people seem to have been disappointed by Darth Nihilus' role in the storyline because, after following all the advertising wherein he was prominent, they were surprised by the fact that he wasn't actually the primary antagonist (and most likely by the strange nature of his "dialogue" as well), feeling that he was "only there to throw in another boss battle" in the long-run. Personally, I wasn't at all disappointed by Darth Nihilus' portrayal in the storyline, but, regardless, I don't quite see how having the showdown with him come after the final confrontation with Kreia would've made him suddenly seem anymore important to those who were disappointed. On the contrary, wouldn't the timing only emphasize what it was about him that disappointed people? I mean, it wouldn't've really changed his character or his role in the storyline. It would've made people think Obsidian Entertainment was trying to portray him as the primary antagonist (instead of Kreia), however, and that would've just led to more emphasis on the "flaws" in his character that disappointed people. Anyway, all things considered, if you felt the space battle around Telos and the confrontation with Darth Nihilus was more of a climax than the "return" to Malachor V and the final confrontation with Kreia was, why not simply see it that way? Why not just think of the former as the climax and the latter as the (lengthy) falling action? That would stand as a valid perspective, I think.

Hahaha. Speak for yourself, I've found myself dead in the Trayus Academy more than a couple times now. Some of those Sith Lords and Sith Assassins can be pretty ruthless. :">

Hey, I don't think he was being sarcastic, though... I could be wrong, but I didn't read it as sarcastic. In response to your idea myself, though, I liked it, but I feel that Darth Sion should have played that sort of role on Malachor V (it actually seemed like Darth Sion was going to play a similar role to that in the cut content), while Darth Nihilus would remain dead after being beaten on the Ravager. After all, we can't all forget about poor Darth Sion.

Again, it seems to me that what you're really judging is the "excitement" and epic atmosphere of the climax more than how the climax would've fit the actual progression and buildup of the storyline. As if you're sort of saying, "How could the storyline have been different to justify this space battle coming at the very end instead?" First of all, setting up Kreia as the final "voice of persuasion" for the Exile to follow Revan into the Unknown Regions better fit the progression of the storyline, because she actually had some knowledge of what it was out there that Revan went to face. Carth, on the other hand, did not. Would it really have felt like the storyline was "moving swiftly along" if the player learned the truth from Kreia, went back to Telos and dealt with Darth Nihilus, and finally spoke to Carth on Telos' Citadel Station, who had no real idea whatsoever as to what might be out there? What would have been the point to furthering the development of the mystery of Revan's departure from all known space (which the scene with Carth did) when the truth (or at least as much truth as was revealed in this game) was already revealed by Kreia earlier? By the way, you seem to be forgetting the fact that that particular scene with Carth (and -- potentially -- Bastila) wouldn't always appear during the game. It only played if the player had said Revan had been redeemed to the Light Side of the Force in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. If the player had said Revan had fallen to the Dark Side of the Force in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, that scene wouldn't've played at all. That would leave that "epilogue" moment (in your vision of the climax) seeming even more empty, no? Also, with Kreia as the final "voice of persuasion" for the Exile to follow Revan into the Unknown Regions, it was essentially set up as the true turning point for the Exile's character. When he confronted Kreia for the last time, he had confronted and resolved most of what lingered deep within him from his past along the path that she laid out for him, save for one thing: Malachor V itself. In confronting Malachor V in person -- resolving his past -- and truly completing all of what training Kreia had for him by surpassing Kreia herself, the Exile was now free to make his actual choice, to determine the fate of the galaxy, to an extent. It was the perfect point at which to bring on the conclusion -- and cliffhanger -- because it was the true resolution to the development the Exile's character underwent over the course of the storyline. By setting up the final confrontation with Kreia as the "sub-climax" and the showdown with Darth Nihilus as the "actual" climax, it wouldn't enhance that crossroad point for the Exile's character. Quite the contrary, it would lessen it. He had already completed his training because he would have already surpassed Kreia, which would mean that he had already reached the end of his character development. All that would've been left for him to face...was a massive space battle that wasn't very personally signficant to him, apart from "just" saving the galaxy. Also, regarding your apparent belief that Darth Nihilus somehow had a deeper connection to the Exile than Malachor V itself did...I don't quite see how. Darth Nihilus was another "byproduct" of Malachor V like the Exile, sure, but it still seemed obvious that Malachor V itself held a more profound connection to the Exile. After all, Malachor V wasn't just another "byproduct" of itself; it was the source of essentially all that had happened. The Exile carried more of Malachor V -- and took more from his experience at Malachor V -- than even Darth Nihilus seemed to, really. For the Exile, it wasn't just the source of his unusual ability to "feed" on the deaths of his enemies -- those he struck down in war -- to increase his power (since Malachor V itself also fed its power by feeding on war and death), as it was for Darth Nihilus. For the Exile, it was also where he rejected and severed his connection and ties to the Force. It also carried much emotional barrage in that it was where he ordered the Mass Shadow Generator's activation, and caused the deaths of hundreds (possibly thousands) of soldiers, Jedi, and Mandalorians to bring an end to the war, his decision to abandon the Jedi Order to join was another "unresolved" part of his past. Malachor V just seemed more significant to the Exile's character than Darth Nihilus did.

So, then, your whole point isn't about concern over how the climax could've better fit the progression of the storyline (which is what a climax should do) at all, but rather about concern over how the climax could've better highlighted the massive space battle around Telos. What I mean to say is, the starting point for your argument here isn't "how the game's storytelling could've been improved". You're starting from just wanting the climax to highlight the "big war event" and, from there, are trying to find ways that the storyline could work around that. Personally, I found the final confrontation with Kreia and her dialogue therein very dramatic and intriguing, and I'm sorry you found it to be "boring hogwash". I wasn't particularly disappointed at all that Darth Nihilus didn't end up being the primary antagonist, mainly because I found Kreia so interesting. What I feel hindered the game's climax was really just the amount of content that was cut from Malachor V and how more could've happened there.

I disagree. Personally, I support the decision to set the confrontation with Darth Nihilus around Telos before the confrontation with "Darth Traya" on Malachor V. I think it fit the progression of the storyline, particularly with the whole revelation of the "true" Sith Empire and the truth of Revan's departure from all known space, and how it led so directly into the cliffhanger ending. I also thought the mysterious, omnious environment and atmosphere of Malachor V -- and the final confrontation with Kreia -- set the mood perfectly for leading into that cliffhanger ending, which seemed quite omnious in itself as well.

I wouldn't agree with that, personally. I don't at all see Revan as just another Sith Lord out for power and conquest. I'm more of the mind that Revan has been opposing the "true" Sith Empire this whole time. I feel Revan's "fall" to the Dark Side of the Force wasn't so much a fall as it was a sacrifice (as Kreia said), most likely for the sake of somehow strengthening the galaxy (in his mind) to prepare it for potentially having to defend itself against the "true" Sith Empire. It was definetly what so many characters throughout the game seemed to suggest...

What would be the point of that, though? For one thing, if that were indeed the case, then in terms of just basic storytelling, I would say the writer(s) seemed to make way too big a deal of this "true" Sith Empire manipulating and looming over the galaxy from beyond the Outer Rim, if all it actually was were simple lies and propaganda being spread by Kreia for no particular reason...particularly since the cliffhanger the storyline concluded on relied heavily on its -- this "true" Sith Empire's -- actual existence. Aside from that, the point at which she spoke of this "true" Sith Empire to the Exile was after he had already struck the fatal blow against her. She was dying. What reason or purpose could she possibly have had for continuing to spread any lies or propagonda while she was already dying? For that matter, what was it, then, that Revan departed from all known space to go find? What was it that Revan went into the Unknown Regions to confront? What was this "greater evil" Revan left to face alone that Mandalore spoke of during a conversation between he and Visas Marr (that didn't make it into the game and was found as cut content on the disc), if not the same one Kreia spoke of later?

That's not true, though. As I said earlier in this thread, it just depended on whichever dialogue option the player selected. "Tell me what you saw," led to her description of Malachor V. "What did you see when you looked at him?" led to, "A man, nothing more." Whether or not the Exile told her to bring him Darth Nihilus' mask didn't affect it...

Visas Marr never said anything about Darth Nihilus being "Death Incarnate" after removing his mask...

Oh, no, no. When I said, "which she claimed to have seen through the Exile as well," I didn't mean that Visas Marr necessarily saw the Exile in Darth Nihilus or vice versa, but that she saw the same "graveyard of ships" through the Exile that she saw through Darth Nihilus, since Malachor V itself lingered spiritually within both of them.

By the way, you're right. It just depended on whichever dialogue option the player selected. If the Exile had said, "Tell me what you saw," Visas Marr spoke of seeing "a graveyard of ships" and the remains of a great battle and atrocity (obviously Malachor V), which she claimed to have seen through the Exile as well. If the Exile had said, "What did you see when you looked at him?" Visas Marr simply replied, "A man, nothing more."

Hahaha! My first time through the Trayus Academy, I actually mistook one of those columns for Kreia (in her "Darth Traya" cloak) from afar.

A man, nothing more. "

On one of the loading screens in the Ebon Hawk. Well...yeah. I think you misread that sentence in my post. I said that "almost a decade" had passed between the end of the Mandalorian Wars and Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, which itself took place five years after Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. So, around four years or so passed between the end of the Mandalorian Wars and the first game, meaning nine years or so passed between the end of the Mandalorian Wars and the second game.

Five years passed between Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. Two years passed between the beginning of the Jedi Civil War and the incident during which Malak betrayed Revan. The time that passed between the end of the Mandalorian Wars and Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords was said to be "almost a decade", which seemed to indicate somewhere between eight and nine years, which would then leave about two years or so. I would say, perhaps around one year between the end of the Mandalorian Wars and the beginning of the Jedi Civil War, and around one year between Malak's betrayal of Revan and Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.

It was never there on any of my playthroughs...one of which was indeed a male Light Side character. I don't think it was necessarily a movie movie (as in one of the movies accessible from the main menu). It might've been just a scene. It definetly came from content that was cut from the game, though. I recall reading the dialogue from it in one of the "cut content" threads on this forum.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. I'm more interested in this line... "I used your death to deceive the Sith, to make them believe they had won, so they would turn on each other." Was that from cut dialogue? I certainly don't remember it from anytime I'd ever played the game... Perhaps she was referring to whatever incident it was that would've triggered the other playable characters' "thoughts" about the Exile's death, from the cut content. Actually, perhaps she was referring to when she "struck down" the Exile on Dantooine (y'know -- when, after Kreia then left with the Handmaiden(s), the Exile awoke and learned either Force Enlightenment or Force Crush). I also recall dialogue from another cut scene that was posted on this forum, which indicated that Darth Sion would've paid a visit to Darth Nihilus, telling him that he has "succeeded in wiping out the Jedi" and that their alliance was over. I think the chain of events was going to be that the scene on Dantooine would've played, with Kreia "striking down" the Exile (and the Jedi Masters, depending on the Exile's alignment) for the sake of masking his presence amidst the "echoes" of Dantooine (since she explicitly spoke of Dantooine's unique "connection" in the Dark Side version of that scene), then leaving with either the Handmaiden or the Handmaiden Sisters (depending on whether the Exile was male or female). Then, that scene on the Ravager with Darth Sion visiting Darth Nihilus and announcing both the fall of the "last Jedi" and the end of their alliance would've played, followed by the "thought montage" sequence with the other playable characters, which would then lead directly into the Exile awakening from his "death" on Dantooine and learning either Force Enlightenment or Force Crush. I think that would've been what Kreia was referring to when she said, "I used your death to deceive the Sith, to make them believe they had won, so they would turn on each other."

Regarding the debate over Jolee Bindo, I think it was safe to say he leaned much closer to the Light Side of the Force than the Dark Side of the Force. He just didn't serve the Jedi Order. There's a difference between being a "good" Force user and being a Jedi, I think, just as there's a difference between being a Dark Jedi and being a Sith. (Dark Jedi were simply fallen Jedi. Sith were members of the actual "order" of the Sith religion. A Dark Jedi could be a Sith, but being a Dark Jedi does not necessarily mean you are a Sith.)

Yeah, they seemed like two words for the same species since Bao-Dur was referred to as both a Zabrak and an Iridonian throughout the game.

Oh, no, no, I wasn't meaning to imply that Revan hadn't become anything more than a Padawan at all. I simply meant, over the course of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, as an amnesiac. With his memories gone, it seemed he had even consciously forgotten how to use the Force, hence why he underwent training on Dantooine again even though he had already done so before losing his identity. Since the Jedi Council certainly didn't want to clue him in on his own identity, they had to train him as though he were an entirely new learner altogether, which meant that he was learning (or "relearning") how to use the Force at a relatively natural pace. That was why Master Vandar and the rest of the Jedi Council only "officially" recognized him as a Padawan. Regarding Kreia, you did make a good point. Although, remember, Kreia's connection with the Force was stripped from her by Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion, so I suppose it could be argued that she herself was sort of "regaining" her power over the course of the game as well, meaning she would have started doing so from a weaker state, reflected by her class during her time as a playable character being that of a simple Padawan or something. Though, I think she had a prestige class as a boss character (Sith Lord).

Don't forget, though, that Master Yoda was also well-known as an extremely skilled lightsaber duelist, so I wouldn't necessarily say that Jedi Consulars couldn't still be skilled with lightsabers. (I would consider Count Dooku as having been a Jedi Consular and Sith Lord, after all, and he was clearly very skilled in the art of lightsaber dueling.) Anyway, I just feel like Qui-Gon Jinn's general demeanor and attitude about the Force fit the bill as potential traits of a Jedi Consular. His focus on meditation, his contemplation as to the true nature of the Force, etc. He was rebellious toward the Jedi Council, certainly, but, then again, so was Jolee Bindo, another Jedi Consular. If not a Jedi Consular, then I would say he was a Jedi Master for his prestige class, at least. Oh, the Core Rulebook didn't include the Jedi Sentinels at all? Only the Jedi Guardians and the Jedi Consulars? I suppose that would explain it, then. Still, I would be willing to accept Obi-Wan Kenobi being a Jedi Guardian as a Padawan and a Jedi Watchman once he actually became a Jedi Knight. His demeanor in Star Wars: Episode I: The Phantom Menace, especially throughout the confrontation with Darth Maul, seemed relatively befitting of a Jedi Guardian, whereas his demeanor (and the mission he was sent on) in Star Wars: Episode II: Attack of the Clones and afterward definetly seemed befitting of a Jedi Watchman. I could be extremely wrong here, but, based on the fact that never actually seemed to become officially recognized by the Jedi Council as more than simply a Padawan throughout Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (since Master Vandar still referred to him as "the Padawan" during the scene wherein he and Bastila contacted Master Vandar from inside the Ebon Hawk along the game's Dark Side path), perhaps it could be said that Jedi Guardians, Jedi Sentinels, and Jedi Consulars were actually the classes of Padawans, while the prestige classes were the classes of actual full-fleged Jedi Knights and/or Jedi Masters, or something like that anyway. Like I said, though, I'm probably extremely wrong.

I would be inclined to agree with this. However, the fact that the Exile survived his "loss" seemed to be potrayed as a rare phenomenon in itself. After all, as I recall, Darth Nihilus' power -- his "feeding" -- was based on severing connections between life and the Force (which was essentially what happened to the Exile, though the Exile severed his own ties himself and by "choice" instead of external force) and feeding on the death resulting from that loss. I think it was still a given that there were many who would die as a result from being cut off from the Force as the Exile had been. Personally, I'm sort of inclined to believe that "the death of the Force" was basically a far-away dream to Kreia, an ideal. I have no doubt that she truly did despise the control the "will" of the Force wielded over the galaxy, but I don't really think she actually planned on making any real galactic-scale attempt to spread the echoes from Malachor V to deafen the galaxy to it. At least, not over the course of the game. She recognized that, although spreading the echoes could very well "free" many living things from the Force, it would also undoubtedly kill just as many, if not many more. Regardless, it was no doubt the Exile's "spiritual" strength in surviving his loss that drew Kreia to him. During one of her individual conversations with Disciple, she basically said as much, acknowledging it as a horrible thing that needed to be ended. She added that she didn't seek to win her war through death and destruction, but instead through her ideals and her teachings, and that she sought a victory that would reflect her ideals and her teachings proving themselves true, not a victory that would reflect her power or a willingness to needlessly destroy. She also said as much, in a different context, during the Dark Side version of the "reunion of the Jedi Masters" scene at the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine: She spoke of how she would've much preferred to defeat the Jedi Masters without striking a blow, to defeat them by proving their teachings were wrong and misguised as she had believed them to be. I think Kreia's ultimate goal over the course of the game was quite simply to train the Exile to reach the fullest of his potential. "Killing" the Force was simply a part of the galaxy she envisioned in accordance with her own philosophies.