Ukraine Conflict - "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

[Mamoulian War]

Not to mention, that 81% of Ukrainian citizens, according to the latest polls, agree that it is not a good time to hold elections right now.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/10/30/7426321/

[Mamoulian War]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

May be confusing what they've given for what they have, US has a lot and some EU countries as well that decide they still need a military themselves rather than sending everything.  The real funny part was that Ukraine is defending the world, that scthick has serious mileage (israel is using it now, lol)  His other comment that its an "equal partnership" is a bit rich.  

 

It might be laughable to you, and it might be over the top, but Ukraine is also defending my country, from getting even deeper under Russian influence. I would say, the same goes for Baltics, Moldova, Kazakhstan and Georgia. And I am very grateful to them, as I do not want to go through same pro-russian secret police harassment as my family ever again…

[Malcador]

52 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

It might be laughable to you, and it might be over the top, but Ukraine is also defending my country, from getting even deeper under Russian influence. I would say, the same goes for Baltics, Moldova, Kazakhstan and Georgia. And I am very grateful to them, as I do not want to go through same pro-russian secret police harassment as my family ever again…

Is a very small world then.  But half that lot has NATO so that's not going anywhere what with Poland arming to the teeth and the US still being a potent force - then we'd get to see who wants to get nuked over Estonia.  Still unconvinced a Russian tide will swarm the globe.  

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67360440

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3784439-russian-missile-hits-bulker-under-liberian-flag-off-odesa-coast.html

A warning ? Coincidence (anti radiation missile going after the ship's radar) ?

[xzar_monty]

53 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

It might be laughable to you, and it might be over the top, but Ukraine is also defending my country, from getting even deeper under Russian influence. I would say, the same goes for Baltics, Moldova, Kazakhstan and Georgia. And I am very grateful to them, as I do not want to go through same pro-russian secret police harassment as my family ever again…

The situation may look completely different depending on where you view it from, what is the level of your historical knowledge or how cynically jaded your world-view happens to be (and of course there are other factors, too). There is no question that I side with the ones who regard Ukraine as defending far more than its territory and culture. It's very hard to say what the potential repercussions of the war and its eventual result may be, but there is no question that Ukraine is, in a way, also defending Finland[*], along with the countries you mention.

As for what is laughable, I think there's an observation by the late David Foster Wallace that bears repeating every now and then: we in the west have managed to create a culture where no writer, for instance, dares to bring forth a novel that sincerely discusses questions of morality and heroism (in the, say, Dostoevsky vein), but ridicule of those concepts is very common. This is not meant to imply that Ukraine is an unblemished good guy, because the country had some pretty serious problems before the war and probably hasn't rid itself of any of them, but it certainly is a small guy that doesn't deserve to be obliterated by an unhinged big guy.

 

[*] Although Russia's antagonism towards and more or less overt attacks on Finland have actually increased since the war began. Russia, of course, and to absolutely no one's surprise, considers that Finland is the aggressor in every single case.

[Sarex]

59 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Is a very small world then.  But half that lot has NATO so that's not going anywhere what with Poland arming to the teeth and the US still being a potent force - then we'd get to see who wants to get nuked over Estonia.  Still unconvinced a Russian tide will swarm the globe. 

It's nicer to stay we want to defend instead we want to destroy.

[BruceVC]

7 hours ago, Malcador said:

Is a very small world then.  But half that lot has NATO so that's not going anywhere what with Poland arming to the teeth and the US still being a potent force - then we'd get to see who wants to get nuked over Estonia.  Still unconvinced a Russian tide will swarm the globe.  

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67360440

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3784439-russian-missile-hits-bulker-under-liberian-flag-off-odesa-coast.html

A warning ? Coincidence (anti radiation missile going after the ship's radar) ?

But  its nice living in Canada and dismissing the historical and current fears of East  European countries from  Russian invasion and occupation

Nothing better than knowing your own  Western  lifestyle is safe while  mocking a country  that is defending itself from invasion. 

 

[xzar_monty]

7 hours ago, Sarex said:

It's nicer to stay we want to defend instead we want to destroy.

Other than Russia, which party here has a deliberate intention to destroy instead of defend, and what is it that they want to destroy? I accept that there is a deliberate effort to destroy Russia's capacity to mount another attack of this kind, but I cannot see this as anything other than perfectly legitimate, given the circumstances.

[pmp10]

10 hours ago, Malcador said:

Is a very small world then.  But half that lot has NATO so that's not going anywhere what with Poland arming to the teeth and the US still being a potent force - then we'd get to see who wants to get nuked over Estonia.  Still unconvinced a Russian tide will swarm the globe.  

If Ukraine has shown anything is that without US NATO is completely toothless. 
Next time Trump or Trump-like is in power will be very tough on eastern Europe.

And I wouldn't count on Poland to save the day unless soldiers found only on paper can materialize and do real fighting. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by pmp10

[xzar_monty]

31 minutes ago, pmp10 said:

If Ukraine has shown anything is that without US NATO is completely toothless.

It has also shown that if France and Germany had got to decide, Ukraine would almost certainly have ended up obliterated already.

It has also shown that an attack on a sovereign country on European soil was not enough to unite [sic] the European Union.

It has also shown that Europe was and probably still is complacent on many levels, militarily for instance (with the exception of Finland and a few other countries, but not all that many).

It has also shown, again, that when Russia and Germany make plans for Europe together, that's spelled DOOM, or possibly DEATH. Not Nord Stream, anyway.

[Mamoulian War]

@xzar_monty I have found another article describing the state of attrition warfare in the conflict. And if it is plausible, it does not look overly bright for Russia.

https://www.wsj.com/world/russia-turns-to-longtime-arms-customers-to-boost-war-arsenal-5111bac4?page=1

[Mamoulian War]

And again, I help myself with the video of the Danish guy. Although he is from the West and not East, he is spot on, what is really going on in Eastern Europe, and how the rational people are seeing the conflict here.

 

[Malcador]

8 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But  its nice living in Canada and dismissing the historical and current fears of East  European countries from  Russian invasion and occupation

Nothing better than knowing your own  Western  lifestyle is safe while  mocking a country  that is defending itself from invasion. 

 

Eastern European countries are in NATO, yes? An alliance Russia knew and knows it cannot defeat, especially keyed up as they are now. EU members may lack might but they have all the kit Ukraine cried for and the US will be pulled in.

I can mock ridiculous marketing very freely, they are defending themselves only, which is fine. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Malcador

[Mamoulian War]

Nope, not with Trump around, he had already a lot of negative remarks about what happens (or more like what will not happen) when Russia hits Baltics. And do you really think, that the Russia would change the scorched earth tactics, when attacking Eastern Europe? How many towns would be razed to the ground before first Wave of defense would be created? Putin needs a war for survival of his regime. And from Russia’s political point of view, they are already in war with NATO, because they want to end the current world order. Only some politicians and people in the west are still living in the lie, that this is not affecting their future because it is only Ukraine’s war.

Russian army might be currently a big ****show, but Russian way of conquest is scorching everything to the ground to make everyone else life as miserable as their own, and then rule over the smoking pile of rubble… And for that you need only some fresh mindless meat willing do get grinded for his overlord. And Russia has enough of it. 

Putin started destabilizing Europe long time ago, first he creates millions of refugees by bombing Syria to oblivion, and then he start funneling billions of dollars to fund populist anti-immigration parties in EU. If you think, that current incompetent army stops him from pursuing his goals as soon as people like Trump stop funding the defense of Ukraine, I got pretty big bridge to sell you…

[HoonDing]

Trump will be re-elected and the war will be over on his first day in office.

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

Nope, not with Trump around, he had already a lot of negative remarks about what happens (or more like what will not happen) when Russia hits Baltics. And do you really think, that the Russia would change the scorched earth tactics, when attacking Eastern Europe? How many towns would be razed to the ground before first Wave of defense would be created? Putin needs a war for survival of his regime. And from Russia’s political point of view, they are already in war with NATO, because they want to end the current world order. Only some politicians and people in the west are still living in the lie, that this is not affecting their future because it is only Ukraine’s war.

Russian army might be currently a big ****show, but Russian way of conquest is scorching everything to the ground to make everyone else life as miserable as their own, and then rule over the smoking pile of rubble… And for that you need only some fresh mindless meat willing do get grinded for his overlord. And Russia has enough of it. 

Putin started destabilizing Europe long time ago, first he creates millions of refugees by bombing Syria to oblivion, and then he start funneling billions of dollars to fund populist anti-immigration parties in EU. If you think, that current incompetent army stops him from pursuing his goals as soon as people like Trump stop funding the defense of Ukraine, I got pretty big bridge to sell you…

I doubt Trump would win, hate is a powerful motivator and people will fear his return even if the alternative is Biden.  I may be wrong though.  But even if he is there, I can't see him resisting pressure from the DOD and others if NATO is tested and the US flinches, easy sell for his needy ego to make him look like some fantasy of Reagan, defending the free world, etc. etc.  May be a moot point to mention him anyway - Russia's not going to be able to mount operations for a long while as sanctions aren't going anywhere

NATO's air power is greater than Russia's, their intelligence is better as well.  

[pmp10]

Washington Post is openly saying Ukraine bombed Nord Stream.
Supposedly Zelensky was not consulted, might be because his administration is thought to be soft and compromised by the Russians. 
Interestingly even US objections were ignored.

Timing on this news is a little suspicions as well.
Winter bombing of Ukrainian energy infrastructure is expected to start soon and they threaten retaliation on Russia’s oil and gas.

[ComradeYellow]

On 11/9/2023 at 4:12 PM, Mamoulian War said:

Russian army might be currently a big ****show, but Russian way of conquest is scorching everything to the ground to make everyone else life as miserable as their own, and then rule over the smoking pile of rubble… And for that you need only some fresh mindless meat willing do get grinded for his overlord. And Russia has enough of it.

Funny how you could probably find an exact quote like this from some low grade dime-a-dozen Euro Nazi supporting dip**** in 1941

The good news though is that Russia has a solid industrial capacity and are producing ordinance at warp speed that the West cannot keep pace with, so it's only a matter of time before they finally start seeing some slow but steady breakthroughs by the Russians in Ukraine.  The best we can honestly hope for is some kind of frozen conflict like North Korea and South Korea, Russia annexes 4 oblasts in Ukraine and the new tense border is established for many years to come.  It's the best we can hope for.

Edited November 11, 2023 by ComradeYellow

[Zoraptor]

Ukraine better watch out, Article 5 invocation incoming:

"Nato’s secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg, said on Wednesday that if the damage to the pipeline was “proven to be an attack on Nato critical infrastructure … it will be met by a united and determined response from Nato”."

Oh wait, that was about that Finnish pipeline that got hit by an anchor last month. For NordStream... it's crickets.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Zoraptor

[Keyrock]

20 hours ago, ComradeYellow said:

Russia annexes 4 oblasts in Ukraine and the new tense border is established for many years to come.

That is, far and away, the most likely outcome, yes. The biggest question in my mind is does Russia just outright annex these oblasts or do they create an """"""""""independent"""""""""" (I can't possibly put enough quotation marks around that) buffer state?

[HoonDing]

Russian Army is weak, a bunch of drunken 17-year-olds with shovels, who have blundering around for almost two years. But they are also strong, because with all these western wunderwaffen we can't beat them.

Pls gib tactical nuclear weapons

[ComradeYellow]

 

[xzar_monty]

Difficult to analyze the situation as of yet, but it's interesting to note that more and more people seeking asylum are now beginning to appear on Finland's eastern border, and apparently these are people who look more like "folks intended to cause logistical and other problems to the Finnish authorities" than "folks oppressed in Russia that seriously need to get out" (as the latter group would likely have been detained on the Russian side).

It's beginning to look like another example of Russia wanting to be more and more of a nuisance, along with being a serious troublemaker. All because Finland became a hostile country towards Russia, as we didn't go along with their idea to attack Ukraine. Boy, weren't we evil towards our poor eastern neighbour.

[BruceVC]

https://www.businessinsider.com/speaker-johnson-ukraine-aid-seized-russian-assets-2023-11

An excellent idea  to fund Ukraine, use the Ruskie frozen $ assets  

Some banking complications but Im sure the US can make a  plan 

[Mamoulian War]

On 11/9/2023 at 8:15 PM, Malcador said:

I doubt Trump would win, hate is a powerful motivator and people will fear his return even if the alternative is Biden.  I may be wrong though.  But even if he is there, I can't see him resisting pressure from the DOD and others if NATO is tested and the US flinches, easy sell for his needy ego to make him look like some fantasy of Reagan, defending the free world, etc. etc.  May be a moot point to mention him anyway - Russia's not going to be able to mount operations for a long while as sanctions aren't going anywhere

NATO's air power is greater than Russia's, their intelligence is better as well.  

And here you are doing a big mistake of thinking like westerner and not like easterner or russian. I wanted to make a long post for you again, trying to give you more insight on how different world it is here, and why you are discounting implanted nihilism of the east into this, but I have found today a very good explanation on how russia thinks, which does a pretty good job of explaining it. And yes Putin counts on people like Trump, ex-Berlusconi, Fico, Orban to pave his way into challenging NATO and Article 5 after he has done enough to destabilize the western society through useful idiots like Zuckerberg and Musk

 

[Mamoulian War]

On 11/11/2023 at 8:56 PM, ComradeYellow said:

Funny how you could probably find an exact quote like this from some low grade dime-a-dozen Euro Nazi supporting dip**** in 1941

The good news though is that Russia has a solid industrial capacity and are producing ordinance at warp speed that the West cannot keep pace with, so it's only a matter of time before they finally start seeing some slow but steady breakthroughs by the Russians in Ukraine.  The best we can honestly hope for is some kind of frozen conflict like North Korea and South Korea, Russia annexes 4 oblasts in Ukraine and the new tense border is established for many years to come.  It's the best we can hope for.

Heh, yeah, maybe in wet Putin dreams. He tried to annex 4 oblasts, and he is not able to hold them back, which made him the first Russian leader after hundreds of years who lost Russian soil. What makes it even more ridiculous is, that he lost it to a much smaller country  And if you are thinking the West cannot keep pace with Russia if they start to try, I got a bridge to sell to you as well. Or do you really think, that a country with a pre-war GDP lower than Italy can outperform the whole Western World with 100x bigger economy combined?

Of course Putin think so, but that’s why everyone sees him as delusional and deranged dictator. Including China