The All Things Political Topic - A politician needs the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month, and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn’t happen

[Gfted1]

14 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Or this?

Nice! Ive been advocating for drones to you guys since aught '13.

Soon my dreams of blast doors will come to fruition?

[Gromnir]

ps keep in mind how since the day o' the uvalde incident we has repeated the same observation regarding time: we have yet to hear a valid explanation as to why it took so long for there to be any meaningful law enforcement response. just 'cause sarex and others expect cops to be willing to sacrifice their lives for the sake o' their fellow citizens don't make it so, however it took near an hour to come up with a plan enter the classroom? we were waiting for a valid explanation as to the delay, but given how much tie has elapsed, am thinking is fair to assume there is no good excuse. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sarex]

  

16 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

and 'round we go. at least you ain't pretending no more.

What have I been pretending about?

17 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

we have shown previous how there is no duty in fact for cops to rush in and save people.

You have shown that you can attack my spelling and not the subject of conversation.

18 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

your expectations do not match reality or legal duty. "When the alternative is to just let the bodies hit the floor? I would say yes, they are supposed to charge in." these guys is trained to hand out parking tickets and break up domestic disputes, both o' which is unfortunate and unnecessarily dangerous in this country. some police departments train for active shooters at schools. some. you know how many different police departments there is in the US? they all got potential different training and standards. how much training does ordinary local cops get for dealing with an uvalde situation? very much depends on the department and department leadership. you know those details? nevertheless, sarex believes not only should those cops in uvalde charge into a situation where they know an individual with murderous intent and an ar-15 lies in wait, but sarex holds such a belief w/o knowing what cop supervisors were telling those individual coward cops at the time. 

as for military gear, we has more than once complained 'bout local departments spending money on such extravagances, but again, even if your local cop has military gear it don't mean they is soldiers. not same training. not same duties and obligations. is an irrelevant observation. 

massive disconnect. am suspecting most folks recognize how the secret service folks is called 'pon to do the extraordinary. nevertheless, whenever an ordinary cop making ~$45k a year fails to meet the same expectations as secret service, we see their bravery questioned. if "charging in" is what we demand o' the guy who has slight more demanding hiring standards than walmart greeter, then the appreciation o' the sacrifice and bravery o' secret service loses its meaning and value. nevertheless uvalde happens and people pretend to be shocked average cop didn't hurl himself into the breech to save all those kids.

unreasonable.

HA! Good Fun!

Please don't make me go and find all the assumptions you have been making. Yes, I am assuming they are coward and yes, I could be wrong, but I think it's a fairly "educated" assumptions from all the failures I have seen previously.

What you are just saying is that the failure is systematic, be it in training or hiring process and I agree. Not everyone should be allowed to be a police officer and training should be standardized.

I have no idea what you think a policemans job is, but I know that it's to protect the public order, or at least that is what it should be.

Either way I have no clue what you are defending here, or why you feel the need to, but to each their own.

11 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Nice! Ive been advocating for drones to you guys since aught '13.

Soon my dreams of blast doors will come to fruition?

Preach!

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

Hadnt the bodies already hit the floor by the time of the video? Presumably, they heard the at least 22 shots, and had dude bottled up in the classroom? Maybe if they had ballistic shields?

I think they did, at 25 mins in they have one.  Seem pretty lackadaisical with it, but the whole time they seem to be chilling.  Even without it, they had a fair amount of guys present at that time.

They had training in this situation, two months prior.  Guess that stuck.

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/06/03/uvalde-cisd-police-hosted-active-shooter-training-in-march-that-urged-immediate-decisive-action/

The course included scenario training and informed officers taking part that in active shooter cases they “will usually be required to place themselves in harm’s way and display uncommon acts of courage to save the innocent.”

“First responders must understand and accept the role of ‘Protector’ and be prepared to meet violence with controlled aggression. A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field. Immediate, decisive action by school-based officers can have a dramatic impact on reducing casualties,” the training document states.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Malcador

[ShadySands]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

I am not a police officer nor would I ever be one. Same as with any other profession that would put my life in danger. How I would react in a matter of life and death, I have no idea. I would like to imagine with bravery, but that is just that, imagination.

Thanks for this

[Gromnir]

24 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Thanks for this

agreed, which is why the following is so weird:

30 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Yes, I am assuming they are coward and yes, I could be wrong, but I think it's a fairly "educated" assumptions from all the failures I have seen previously.

having seen other unspecified police fails, not involving same cops, he makes an educated assumption that the uvalde guys is cowards?

dude.

might as well finish the response to @Sarex 

so first you complain 'bout Gromnir assumptions and then immediate make an assumption based on past bad acts of cops not the uvalde cowards. 

*chuckle*

then you make a strawman argument.

*eye roll*

advice: never start with, "what you are saying," 'cause looks like you cannot be trusted to then describe what were said. we has explained many times how US police literal cannot be standardized (training, hiring standards, etc.) save through organic homogenization. state police power is literal off limits to the fed.  unconstitutional. nevertheless, we didn't blame uvalde on systemic problems and keep in mind we never even conceded your point 'bout cowardice so... fail again? am not certain where the fail at uvalde were other than our belief, based on the admitted lack o' an explanation, that the delay o' law enforcement to enter the classroom where the shooter had retreated were excessive. seems like a fail further up the food chain than individual cops on the scene, but again, am admitting working on a lack o' info 'cause law enforcement still hasn't provided an explanation.

btw, we purpose stopped quoting you where you admitted you don't know what cop job is 'cause we specific addressed what cop duty most certainly is not in the post you got nothing from save a spelling correction. "protect the public order" is a decent enough identification o' the duty in question, but as already stated, that don't carry with it any duty owed to any specific individual. the cop has a duty to the community, but like it or not, she don't have a duty to save or protect any individual even if the need is obvious and the cop is capable o' rendering the necessary aid. is no duty to "charge in" just 'cause people is in danger. so, add basic reading fail too. 

nevertheless we got you to at least concede you were in fact asking cops to hurl themselves into the breach and that failure to do so amounted to cowardice. baby steps.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Gromnir

[Sarex]

12 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

having seen other unspecified police fails, not involving same cops, he makes an educated assumption that the uvalde guys is cowards?

Either as collective or by chain of command. Collectively no one was willing to do anything except to prevent the parents from getting their kids, while still getting their own. By chain of command for the fear or failure and bad press that would result from said failure.

What do you think could be the reason then for their inaction?

[Gromnir]

27 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Either as collective or by chain of command. Collectively no one was willing to do anything except to prevent the parents from getting their kids, while still getting their own. By chain of command for the fear or failure and bad press that would result from said failure.

What do you think could be the reason then for their inaction?

not allowing armed and angry parents into the school is hardly unreasonable. duh. add a chaotic and uncontrollable element to an active shooter scenario? am not needing be an expert on such to recognize terribad. and there has been no meaningful corroboration o' the claim cops rescued their own kids save as part o' a general rescue effort o' kids in other classrooms. weren't as if cops were rescuing their own kids and leaving others behind, or at least is no meaningful proof o' such and is noteworthy there is no new stories making such claims. 

so again, what were the failures you "previously" observed which led you to an explanation o' cowardice? am not gonna help you with this. be specific.

as have said before, am placing at least a portion o' blame on cop leadership 'cause am unsure how to explain the time delay before entering the classroom. sure, is hardly unforeseeable that there might be an effort by those in charge to minimize loss o' life o' cops and innocent civilians. rush in w/o a plan or intelligence might be unwise even if folks such as sarex would see as brave... right up until a bunch o' kids and cops got shot and killed. but again, with each passing minute, the failure to do anything makes for a bad look for those in charge.

still not seeing any explanation for cowardice finding... other than your imagination. you admit you don't know the cop job and you clear don't know the details o' what individual cops were being told to do or what training they might have previous received. nevertheless, based on vague "previously" observed somethings, you feel confident in labeling the uvalde cops who did not "charge in" to be cowards? 

precise 'cause Gromnir don't know details, and am not making assumptions, and 'cause am having never needed to rush headlong into oncoming weapon fire to prove our bravery to faceless keyboard jockeys, we do not feel comfortable labeling individual uvalde cops as cowards. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 13, 2022 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Gfted1 said:

Soon my dreams of blast doors will come to fruition?

That's going to make it harder for the cops to deal with the shooter, no ?

[Gromnir]

9 minutes ago, Malcador said:

That's going to make it harder for the cops to deal with the shooter, no ?

as long as cops is provided lightsabres there is no genuine problem. 

blast doors is a terrible idea but admitted no worse than ted cruz's call for a single entrance for schools. more than 750 texas schools have 1300+ students. can't imagine how things could go wrong in an emergency with a single exit.

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

I think they did, at 25 mins in they have one.  Seem pretty lackadaisical with it, but the whole time they seem to be chilling.  Even without it, they had a fair amount of guys present at that time.

They had training in this situation, two months prior.  Guess that stuck.

Maybe if they'd had the course the same day?*. It was weird that the initial police group arrived looking all gung ho, then turned around and bailed out so quickly, and not just because that wasn't what they were trained to do.

It mostly looked like organisational malaise/ inflexibility ie the decision was made initially that the shooter had done his damage and to wait for more tacticool gear and they weren't going to budge from that determination and just keep waiting for more and more stuff. I do kind of wonder if the botched response in Waco was a factor even after all these years. Maybe Beslan too, though I doubt that made anywhere near the impression Waco did in the US.

*the cops who apprehended the Christchurch Mosque shooter had been at a relevant training course the same day. They also had nothing defensive but basic vests and still went in, while believing there was more than one person and he was wearing a suicide vest. The rank amateurs didn't even kill the guy.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Zoraptor

[Gromnir]

the active shooter training for uvalde cops happened in late march, so were relative recent, but am having no idea just who were part o' the training. is unlikely such were the entire department. all texas police departments is 'posed to get some kinda active shooter training, but how each department handles such training is typically american with every sheriff and police chief deciding what is sufficient. training were a monday and happened once, on a single day? were a leadership thing or did line cops get training and if so how many? participants were informed to embrace "immediate, decisive action." have few details 'bout training. regardless, immediate and decisive didn't happen.  then what? typical such training involves role-playing to address the what if situations. got a shooter with an ar-15 in a room with a bunch o' kids and cops is outside. immediate and decisive sounds swell and all, but with a doorway 'tween hero cops and the shooter, decisive looks a bit more hazardous than ramming a suspects' car.

immediate, decisive action mighta' prevented such, but once the shooter were in a classroom with kids and a doorway between him and any rescuers...

regardless, raise your hand if you thinks some number o' small town cops receiving a single day o' unspecified active shooter training made 'em experienced and qualified to handle for reals active shooter incidents. in our specific area o' ca, regular scheduled drills is being done by cops with cooperation o' schools. such happens in more than a few municipalities, but is hardly universal.  for uvalde all we ever saw mentioned is the one training day w/o much enlightenment regarding what were the training involved save for media repeating the less than helpful, "immediate, decisive action" mantra.

oh, and why do we mention car ramming? our recollection is the christchurch mosque shooter were arrested after he fled shooting scenes via car... had already killed dozens when the cops rammed his vehicle at high speed. cops pulled the shooter out o' the vehicle, and the killer were hardly moving and looked bloodied... although admitted the crude mosaic stuff made difficult to discern details from rando pedestrian video we saw on interweb capturing the arrest. maybe not exact the same as uvalde, eh?

in any event, is much more difficult to be brave in real life than to accuse others o' cowardice via the internet. is avoiding the draft during war cowardly? perhaps is times when avoiding the draft may be brave? depends on whether you respect the "draft dodger" as to whether you brand him a coward? perhaps passage o' time and opinions 'bout the war in question changes hearts and minds on the issue? 

muhammad ali.

donald trump.

if it were 1966 or thereabouts, most americans woulda' criticized ali, including jackie robinson btw. 

am thinking the situations o' trump and ali is diferent, but we also have more details 'regarding trump and ali as 'posed to broad stroke criticisms o' cops in tactical gear. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps as part o' our mcle, we took a single day course in mediation and arbitration. got a certificate and everything in addition to receiving our needed hours. bona fide. were held at the la playa in carmel, and our law firm paid so we said, "why not?" if you think for an instant the course made us competent to handle arbitration and mediation you are nuts. furthermore, we ain't never yet been part o' a mediation in which we were being fired 'pon with an ar-15. am suspecting whatever training we received via the one day course mighta' slipped our mind if our heart rate were exceeding 100 and the prospect o' our imminent death were something other than a philosophical quandary. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

It mostly looked like organisational malaise/ inflexibility ie the decision was made initially that the shooter had done his damage and to wait for more tacticool gear and they weren't going to budge from that determination and just keep waiting for more and more stuff. I do kind of wonder if the botched response in Waco was a factor even after all these years. Maybe Beslan too, though I doubt that made anywhere near the impression Waco did in the US.

One of the more creative and amusing explanations was that the cops have been affected by all the BLM protests so that they felt they'd be slammed for using force.  Probably more likely that than US cops knowing or remembering Beslan, though.

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

ps as part o' our mcle, we took a single day course in mediation and arbitration. got a certificate and everything in addition to receiving our needed hours. bona fide. were held at the la playa in carmel, and our law firm paid so we said, "why not?" if you think for an instant the course made us competent to handle arbitration and mediation you are nuts. furthermore, we ain't never yet been part o' a mediation in which we were being fired 'pon with an ar-15. am suspecting whatever training we received via the one day course mighta' slipped our mind if our heart rate were exceeding 100 and the prospect o' our imminent death were something other than a philosophical quandary. 

A brief training course is indeed no substitute for a combination of theory (how it's supposed to work) and practical exercises in the field (how it really works). Just thinking back to my own civil defense training. The theory was all nice and well, but getting chased out at 4am, sent into the dark and rescue 80kg dummies, that had to be carried out (tied to stretchers) from subterranean sewer tunnels with no light can not be explained in a class room by an instructor. Although I only ever got to use the fire fighting training and first aid training a few times in "real life" in the following decades. It was still nice to have done extensive hands on training.

 

Edit: I'm sure the instructors had a blast, literally, on those training sessions, lobbing generous quantities of flash bang and smoke grenades everywhere to improve the immersion (it was supposed to be war after all)

 

Edit2: Which is my anecdotal way of saying the amount and the nature of training matters.

[Gromnir]

@Guard Dog shared this story  

Conservatives Called an Ohio Rape Case Fake News. Now an Arrest Has Been Made

the whole situation is revolting with people attempting to score political points and gaslighting w/o any sense o' shame.

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Gromnir

[HoonDing]

Imagine worshipping a god who wants you to carry and give birth to the child of your rapist as a ten-year-old.

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

Nice! Ive been advocating for drones to you guys since aught '13.

Soon my dreams of blast doors will come to fruition?

I have also supported the usage of drones in crowd control situations and during violent protests

I wouldnt go as far as suggesting you need sniper rifles because thats only necessary in times of real war and conflict so I can understand the Israelis using this technique 

But drones can be hugely beneficial in certain cases 

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, ShadySands said:

Thanks for this

Sarex "concern " with how the police responded in Uvalde has nothing to do with if the police are really brave or the actual killings 

Its just the normal anti-US  and by proxy anti-Western ideological bashing. Have you ever known a debate on this forum where anyone has made multiple posts about when the police have gone in and killed shooters or lost there lives during a violent standoff ?

Do we say " the US police are really brave "? Im not saying people cant discuss the bravery of the police in Uvalde but its just theater and not sincere 

 

[Gfted1]

11 hours ago, Malcador said:

That's going to make it harder for the cops to deal with the shooter, no ?

The idea still needs a little massaging. Best case scenario is the doors close before the perp enters the building, failing that the doors could seal them into one hallway / classroom, minimizing the potential damage? Im just spitballing here but maybe even flood the area with a disabling gas too?

5 hours ago, HoonDing said:

Imagine worshipping a god...

You could have stopped here.  

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But drones can be hugely beneficial in certain cases

Its the future.

[Zoraptor]

7 hours ago, Gromnir said:

oh, and why do we mention car ramming? our recollection is the christchurch mosque shooter were arrested after he fled shooting scenes via car... had already killed dozens when the cops rammed his vehicle at high speed. cops pulled the shooter out o' the vehicle, and the killer were hardly moving and looked bloodied... although admitted the crude mosaic stuff made difficult to discern details from rando pedestrian video we saw on interweb capturing the arrest. maybe not exact the same as uvalde, eh?

"..precise 'cause Gromnir don't know details, and am not making assumptions.." Classic Gromnir, complain about someone else making assumptions two posts back, then goes right ahead and makes assumptions himself two posts later.

You could always have, y'know, read the handy article I linked to with first hand accounts. Which mentions that one of the cops smacked Tarrant with his gun butt to stop him setting off an IED. That's why he looked dazed.

The small town cop excuse is particularly amusing. One of the cops was based at Arthur's Pass. Population 48. No typo, forty eight. Pretty much literally cannot get more small town than that. The other was from Lincoln, population ~9000. NZ Police also don't even regularly carry firearms, unlike US police.

You may take it as read that the situation was not directly equivalent to that at Uvalde though. Doesn't really have to be to make a comparison of competence; and the cops at Uvalde had plenty of advantages as well as disadvantages- like there being 10 cops there immediately.

[Malcador]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62083196

Well, better late to find out than never, I guess, heh.

[HoonDing]

 

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

"..precise 'cause Gromnir don't know details, and am not making assumptions.." Classic Gromnir, complain about someone else making assumptions two posts back, then goes right ahead and makes assumptions himself two posts later.

 

so wait, the cops didn't plow into tarrant's car after he had already shot dozens? we just assumed that from video? would seem to be a significant difference, no? 

edit:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/03/16/this-cellphone-videos-shows-alleged-new-zealand-mosque-attackers-dramatic-arrest/

tarrant is pulled outta car, flops onto the ground and then is struck with rifle butt. 18 second mark. how much time elapsed previous to start o' video is unknown but were time enough for cops to get out of their car and reach tarrant. tarrant had plenty o' time to set off vest before being struck if that were the plan and if he were in condition to do so. just as you assume he were dazed from rifle strike, tarrant's behaviour previous to being struck suggests he were dazed from the car crash.

keyboard heroes not seeing difference 'tween subduing a guy with no hostages following a car crash and suspect visible the entire time v. "charging in" to a closed room through a single doorway not knowing where is the shooter, children and other obstacles in the room. no doubt is cowardice to not wanna be the first cop through that doorway, eh?

not analogous and should be unnecessary to point out differences.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 14, 2022 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

19 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

 

Its fake news hoonding, dont believe a word. The radical left have always been trying to undermine Peterson because he calls them out and correctly identifies  their pernicious and insidious influence 

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

The idea still needs a little massaging. Best case scenario is the doors close before the perp enters the building, failing that the doors could seal them into one hallway / classroom, minimizing the potential damage? Im just spitballing here but maybe even flood the area with a disabling gas too?

You could have stopped here.  

Its the future.

@Gfted1

I wonder if you could use rubber bullets in a drone?