Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 4

[InsaneCommander]

I'm in Act II. Got the terrible habit of trying to move the camera in Crusade battles, so I always end up hitting "w" and making my first unit delay its action until the end of the turn. And it is usually the archers. I'm getting the impression that these battles will become very repetitive. Archers seem to cause much more damage, so it is all about keeping them away from the enemies and healing the frontline units. At least for now.

Regill is quite an interesting npc. I'll definitely play as a Hellknight/Hellknight Signifier in the future, both for roleplaying and to see everyone's reactions when I praise his decisions.

Oh, and now I understand all those memes about Ember.

With Camellia and Daeran out of the party

Spoiler

the corpses and heads stopped appearing. I hope they don't do anything bad to Galfrey while I'm away from the camp.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

14 hours ago, Gorth said:

The movie version of Conan was sort of a Barbarian/Thief multiclass, but that might be an option in this game (I don't know yet)

You can multiclass with almost anything. So many different combination are possible....but many of them are ****.

[Gorth]

7 hours ago, KP From Another World said:

You can multiclass with almost anything. So many different combination are possible....but many of them are ****.

Yeah, I noticed the very familiar system of picking a class (any class you qualify for) level when leveling up. I did get a second barbarian level though for level 2. Later I might go Rogue for a bit, just for the role playing fun (I need to practice my Austrian accent). That being said, I consider this character "expendable" and it's more of a testing the waters run, to see what to expect later. I.e. how badly is min/maxing needed etc. and how much wiggle room is there for at least some limited experimentation.

Once I get the hang of it, I might try what looks like more challenging classes (more "stars"). Maybe even something just for the sake of later gaining those classes you can't get at character creation (like Assassin). But, for now, just left the Mongrel "village" and exploring a maze.

 

Edit: Playing "Normal" difficulty. While I'm a noob at this game, I don't consider myself completely clueless to the mechanics. Also, categorically using turn based combat (I could probably have roflstomped all opposition so far in RTWP, but I think I learn stuff better by taking it one turn at a time and consider what my characters are doing)

 

[MrBrown]

13 hours ago, Gorth said:

 That being said, I consider this character "expendable" and it's more of a testing the waters run, to see what to expect later. I.e. how badly is min/maxing needed etc.

Lots.

Also depends on how much effort you're prepared to give for each fight.

But it does sound like Normal will be too much for how you're playing it, eventually.

[Gorth]

2 hours ago, MrBrown said:

Lots.

Also depends on how much effort you're prepared to give for each fight.

But it does sound like Normal will be too much for how you're playing it, eventually.

Let's see how far it goes. Gorth the Barbarian is now level 3 and made it to the tavern. I feel a bit like I just finished Irenicus' dungeon again

Nothing difficult so far... except that "mini boss" at the garrison. I had a suspicion the game was rigged when I used the Inspect function and saw she had 32HD

[majestic]

15 hours ago, Gorth said:

Edit: Playing "Normal" difficulty. While I'm a noob at this game, I don't consider myself completely clueless to the mechanics.

It's not really only about mechanics, these are relatively similar to any d20 game. Base Attack Bonus, Armor Class, etc., but the specific implementation and knowledge of items and how specific mechanics interact in this particular implenentation of the Pathfinder ruleset. To give you a primer, we were talking about just one of these things a page back.

Armor Class scaling can't be done with armor at all*, so any characters who are supposed to tank whose defenses rely solely on armor class gained from armor are going to get into a bit of a bind later on. In order to get the armor class necessary to comfortable stand in melee range of enemies and not get beaten into a bloody pulp, you'd need to take an Oracle level with Nature's Whispers, which lets you you take your CHA bonus to armor class (as a bonus, you can now dump DEX to 7) and take one level of Scaled Fist monk.

These two stack, because the Monk AC bonus stacks on top of the DEX bonus, which is now caused by CHA. Therefore, starting this character with a CHA of 21 means at the second level the character already has a +10 bonus to AC. Endgame we're looking at 26 base CHA with a +6 CHA item, i.e. 32 CHA. 10 + 11 x 2 = 32 AC before buffs. Good luck finding any armor in the game that comes with stats like that, especially once you figure out that Mage Armor stacks on top of that (+4 AC) and taking a potion of Mage Armor proccs Archmage Armour (adds another +10 AC at Mythic 10, although that is quite late in the game - but you still get to +7 AC from Mage Armor + Archmage Armour relatively quickly!), so we're sitting at 46 AC.

46 AC might sound like it is a lot, but how well do you think that stacks up against enemies having 50+ AB and 8 attacks per round, and we're not even talking about Unfair difficulty yet which just adds even more on top of the insanity...  to get through that you need to actively use exploits, like the little fun fact that Mounted Shield only gets checked when mounting your, uhm, mount. So switch to that fat tower shield, climb on top of your horse and switch back to that two handed lance for the extra charge oomph while still having the AC from Mounted Shield...

*Technically not true, but the numbers coming out are so low it is near enough to can't be done at all at anything at or above normal.

Edited August 25, 2022 by majestic

[MrBrown]

^ You don't have build like that on Normal necessarily, if you're ready to spend some extra time on fights. Higher than Normal, probably yeah.

[uuuhhii]

47 minutes ago, majestic said:

It's not really only about mechanics, these are relatively similar to any d20 game. Base Attack Bonus, Armor Class, etc., but the specific implementation and knowledge of items and how specific mechanics interact in this particular implenentation of the Pathfinder ruleset. To give you a primer, we were talking about just one of these things a page back.

Armor Class scaling can't be done with armor at all*, so any characters who are supposed to tank whose defenses rely solely on armor class gained from armor are going to get into a bit of a bind later on. In order to get the armor class necessary to comfortable stand in melee range of enemies and not get beaten into a bloody pulp, you'd need to take an Oracle level with Nature's Whispers, which lets you you take your CHA bonus to armor class (as a bonus, you can now dump DEX to 7) and take one level of Scaled Fist monk.

These two stack, because the Monk AC bonus stacks on top of the DEX bonus, which is now caused by CHA. Therefore, starting this character with a CHA of 21 means at the second level the character already has a +10 bonus to AC. Endgame we're looking at 26 base CHA with a +6 CHA item, i.e. 32 CHA. 10 + 11 x 2 = 32 AC before buffs. Good luck finding any armor in the game that comes with stats like that, especially once you figure out that Mage Armor stacks on top of that (+4 AC) and taking a potion of Mage Armor proccs Archmage Armour (adds another +10 AC at Mythic 10, although that is quite late in the game - but you still get to +7 AC from Mage Armor + Archmage Armour relatively quickly!), so we're sitting at 46 AC.

46 AC might sound like it is a lot, but how well do you think that stacks up against enemies having 50+ AB and 8 attacks per round, and we're not even talking about Unfair difficulty yet which just adds even more on top of the insanity...  to get through that you need to actively use exploits, like the little fun fact that Mounted Shield only gets checked when mounting your, uhm, mount. So switch to that fat tower shield, climb on top of your horse and switch back to that two handed lance for the extra charge oomph while still having the AC from Mounted Shield...

*Technically not true, but the numbers coming out are so low it is near enough to can't be done at all at anything at or above normal.

stat bloat really are impressive in owlcat game

hit die 50 are basically as high as even the most ridiculous pathfinder 1e demigod go

and there are hit die 45 enemy in the third chapter of wotr

edit

hit die 36 was how high most powerful demigod go

Edited August 25, 2022 by uuuhhii

[Gromnir]

12 minutes ago, majestic said:

snip

hmmm

we found seelah, spec'd sword and board, perfect capable o' tanking most encounters up to hard difficulty. however, for a few boss fights, the paladin were not a viable tank... and the boss fights are kinda the chokepoint for those who might not wanna min-max. seelah, particularly if you made her a mounted combatant (we used wolf most often, but for full tanky seelah, boar is a decent choice... though admitted to do non-horse you gotta multi with oracle or something else,) is gonna be an excellent tank for +90% o' all wotr encounters on difficulties short o' unfair, but is not as if you are able to ignore boss battles which effective undermine her tank worthyness. so the question is why would you build seelah as a tank in the first place? crazycakes camellia is arguable the most effective pure tank 'mongst the companions as is typical better to use a dex build for ac than to try and stack armour bonuses. 

y'know, the main reason we keep seelah sword and board in all our wotr runs is 'cause there is a holy avenger in the game and 'cause somebody in our party is gonna be equipping the undying love of the hopebringer. more freaking metagamey nonsense, eh? the shield is too useful for most o' our dc and fear-exploitation parties not to have the shield figure into our strategies, so somebody needs equip it and seelah is an obvious candidate.

in our estimation, your best wotr tank is a summons or an animal companion. sure, you may build an angel oracle to be nigh invulnerable, but why bother? build a party to max dc and damage output is typical our strategy 'cause an overwhelming offense in wotr is the best defense-- you don't need stellar ac if you kill everything in one or two rounds... which is admitted cheesy.

...

pathfinder is subject to munchkiny exploits, and owlcat took a hands-off approach to pathfinder balance... and then they added their own epic silliness which frequent complete breaks the game. this is a problem for casual gamers 'cause to make wotr challenging enough for a game with reload as well as hardcore fans who will make insane powerful trickster, demon and angle builds, owlcat resorted to bloat. well that is fine for the hardcore players who will grumble 'bout bloat as they roll-stomp through the game on any difficulty short o' unfair, but what about the casual player? wotr is designed so hardcore munchkins may nevertheless enjoy the game experience, but such design necessarily is gonna frustrate the casual and sane player who doesn't know every unique wotr exploit and stacking opportunity. 

nevertheless, if @Gorthis having any difficulties with battles on normal difficulty, we will offer advice, but he should be reassured to hear playing every companion straight vanilla as offered is viable. it is 'course all too ez to choose wrong feats and multi-class options so as to make your party ineffectual. is also disturbing ez to build a party which is highly effective for the first 2/3 o' the game but useless near the end. regardless, is not too difficult to fix any "wrong" choices, so don't hesitate to express frustration and ask for solutions.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

32 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

nevertheless, if @Gorthis having any difficulties with battles on normal difficulty, we will offer advice, but he should be reassured to hear playing every companion straight vanilla as offered is viable. it is 'course all too ez to choose wrong feats and multi-class options so as to make your party ineffectual. is also disturbing ez to build a party which is highly effective for the first 2/3 o' the game but useless near the end. regardless, is not too difficult to fix any "wrong" choices, so don't hesitate to express frustration and ask for solutions.

Thanks Gromnir. I'll ask away if I either get stuck or suspect I'm going to head into deep trouble soon.

Yes, my barbarian is mostly focused on dishing out damage (at low levels at least). I put some points in dex too, as I wasn't really convinced dressing up in the heaviest platemail possible was really "the barbarian" way to go. Figured I would use light(er) armour and compensate with higher dex. (hidden by pop up window, it's 15). As for the uneven numbers, I seem to remember you get an ability point every few levels to add and it made more sense in the beginning not to use all points in the diminishing return sink. Sure, it may come back to bit me

But for now, it's just fun. Learning to use charge and rage (I took the defensive rage feat or whatever it's called, that doesn't leave me completely exposed to incoming attacks when raging as well as dodge)

 

Edit: As mentioned previously, not going to fret if I can't complete my first run. I could have picked easy mode, but prefer to meet a bit of resistance and get an idea what you have to prepare for. I'm wondering what "Mystic Path" is

[majestic]

When it comes to mounts, I've basically done a 360° turn and only use horses - they're the only ones that you can mount with equal enlargement levels. Cast Legendary Proportions or Frightful Aspect on your character and your mount? That works with horses. With anything else? No.

The buffs from being able to mount your horse while under LP/FA makes the better stats of wolves or boars irrelevant. Works on Seelah, but of course much better on any mercenary.

53 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

in our estimation, your best wotr tank is a summons or an animal companion. sure, you may build an angel oracle to be nigh invulnerable, but why bother? build a party to max dc and damage output is typical our strategy 'cause an overwhelming offense in wotr is the best defense-- you don't need stellar ac if you kill everything in one or two rounds... which is admitted cheesy.

Angel Oracle can kind of do both at once. The caster level gets high enough for the Angel buffs that make you virtually immune to everything last for a day with Greater Enduring Spells (same as with the Geniekind + Elemental Barrage cheese), you can scale defenses to the point where it can facetank Unfair - well, more or less - and it clears rooms in a cast or two with (Bolstered) Storm of Justice. Plus there's no real reason to not have an invulnerable Angel Oracle and a party with Ember one-shotting demon lords and a mercenary Paladin on a horse charging enemies for four digit damage.

Primary reason for doing so is playing on Unfair though - where the bosses aren't the issue, but everything else is, especially in situations where you can't control where enemies spawn and they start one-shotting your backline. Which is about as early as, oh, getting right out of Kenabres to do Sosiel's quest.

edit:

Plus, Oracles can cast Creeping Doom with Nature Mystery, and why would you not have that? Might as well go to a gun fight with a knife.

20 minutes ago, Gorth said:

As for the uneven numbers, I seem to remember you get an ability point every few levels to add and it made more sense in the beginning not to use all points in the diminishing return sink.

Primary reason for getting your main stat to an odd number is because you get 5 stat points with 20 levels, and then you end with an even number, and many character builds simply have no use of anything but your main stat, or secondary stats are good enough or begin with even numbers. So, yeah, not having an odd main stat is usually a waste of a stat point, what with how the game is set up and works.

20 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Edit: As mentioned previously, not going to fret if I can't complete my first run. I could have picked easy mode, but prefer to meet a bit of resistance and get an idea what you have to prepare for. I'm wondering what "Mystic Path" is

A secondary progression path that offers several options, of which many are traps if you don't precisely know what you're doing, and some of which are pitfalls even if you do...

Edited August 25, 2022 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

5 hours ago, majestic said:

When it comes to mounts, I've basically done a 360° turn and only use horses

5 hours ago, majestic said:

they're the only ones that you can mount with equal enlargement levels. Cast Legendary Proportions or Frightful Aspect on your character and your mount? That works with horses. With anything else? No

If you don't mind using mods, Tabletop Tweaks brings in a feat called undersized mount, which allows you to mount your size or smaller. Generally I recommend TT as a good balanced* set of tweaks that makes some things more viable and nerfs (if u want it to) the most broken stuff.

*

[InsaneCommander]

7 hours ago, uuuhhii said:

and there are hit die 45 enemy in the third chapter of wotr

Some say a bunch of level 18 characters are like the Avengers, but then if some random mobs in this game decide to run away to another country they will kill more people than Thanos with the snap.

 

7 hours ago, majestic said:

When it comes to mounts, I've basically done a 360° turn and only use horses - they're the only ones that you can mount with equal enlargement levels. Cast Legendary Proportions or Frightful Aspect on your character and your mount? That works with horses. With anything else? No.

Seelah's horse is doing really well. And his AC is as good as hers now that he learned Medium Barding. I'm still undecided about giving her a Monk and an Oracle's level. Maybe later when my Court Poet gives her a bigger CHA.

 

1 hour ago, KP From Another World said:

If you don't mind using mods, Tabletop Tweaks brings in a feat called undersized mount, which allows you to mount your size or smaller. Generally I recommend TT as a good balanced* set of tweaks that makes some things more viable and nerfs (if u want it to) the most broken stuff.

Thanks for mentioning it. I'm still planning to have Nurah a hafling character mounting a velociraptor on a future playthrough. It doesn't make sense that she would have to wait until level 4 (or later?) to do it.

Edited August 26, 2022 by InsaneCommander

[Gorth]

Is it just me or does Camellia come across as a bit untrustworthy?

She's useful alright, but there is just something fishy about her...

 

[bugarup]

Cam's a bit secretive, but she'll come clean soon enough, don't you worry.  I gave her a chance after keeping her benched for couple o'first playthroughs and what do you know, she is useful and v. good at what she does. It's just that her low levels really suck. 

[majestic]

2 hours ago, Gorth said:

Is it just me or does Camellia come across as a bit untrustworthy?

I hope you plan on following her romance, it makes her so much better.

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, Gorth said:

Is it just me or does Camellia come across as a bit untrustworthy?

She's useful alright, but there is just something fishy about her...

 

if we had to choose top three most useful wotr companions we would select camellia along with seelah and sosiel, and camellia makes the best pure tank, though as already stated by mid-late game a true tank becomes increasing less necessary. crazycakes eventual gets access to creeping doom, one o' the best spells for overcoming a few o' those improbable boss battles, and she potential may take a second spirit to acquire the metal curse, which provides a scaling no-save debuff to enemy ac... -6 at level 16? serious? 

even so, we invariably stop using camellia in our party after act i and some limited act ii content. am s'posing one could argue camellia has over-the-top appeal, but is nothing particular subtle or clever in the writing o' her character. "would the owlcat writers go that far?" yes. yes they would, and so what? yeah, am able to see the edgelord appeal o' camellia but we don't share it. 

but again, camellia has the potential to be the best companion tank, as well as your most useful hexer and she has access to creeping doom. camellia is a spirit hunter, an excellent class with full spell progression capable of casting many o' the best party-wide buffs available. camellia is useful early, mid and late in the game. is many practical reasons to keep camellia around. 

@majestic mentioned how much he enjoyed firebirds in a different thread.

we would rather watch firebirds on an endless loop than keep camellia in a wotr party a moment longer than necessary.

HA! Good Fun!

[uuuhhii]

never figure out how to use camellia effectively

shaman spell list really doesn't feel good

benched after finding other source of barkskin

Edited August 26, 2022 by uuuhhii

[Gromnir]

16 minutes ago, uuuhhii said:

never figure out how to use camellia effectively

 

am suspecting is gonna depend on what you mean by "effectively."

with fencing grace and her shaman battle abilities and spells, a camellia with maxed dex is gonna be having high attack bonus with a high crit weapon, doing admirable damage even before factoring in no-brainer elemental barrage damage. camellia may also cast genie kind to further exploit elemental barrage.  given she is most likely being used to tank, the damage output is impressive.

insofar as hexes, metal curse requires taking a second spirit, but is worth the effort. metal curse is a no save and no spell resistance debuff o' foe ac. along with the madness domain power, the metal curse is one o' the top debuffs in the entire game. protective luck and fortune is useful but may be exploited to increase duration to extreme periods o' time resulting in cheese level benefits. 

shaman has most all the desirable party buffs including the resist/protection energy communals, delay poison, true seeing, stoneskin, and all the attribute boosts. am not personal finding necessary, but take the greater enduring spells mythic and have camellia cast all the best buffs which will then last 24 hours. 

creeping doom and crusader's edge. 

...

sure, we may build a better merc or player character than camellia, but am having a hard time dismissing her usefulness and keep in mind we active dislike her writing so is not as if am affected by some kinda desire to over-inflate her contributions. in all Gromnir runs, camellia is permanent kicked to the curb after the start o' lost chapel, but is not 'cause she is ineffectual.

HA! Good Fun! 

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

7 hours ago, Gorth said:

Is it just me or does Camellia come across as a bit untrustworthy?

It's just you. Whom amongst us does not scream "THE WORLD IN CRIMSON"?

[bugarup]

I had (still have, left them in Chapter 3 until GOTY edition) a party with wildland shaman PC and Ember with Cam leaning into hexes. The debuff pile-up was very handy in early to early-mid levels. Also from RP angle  a party that constantly curses and chants has to be a delight. 

"Piss off, you wanker!"

"Jai guru deva..."

"U fokin wot mate?!?!"

"Ommmmmmm..."

[majestic]

Might not look perfectly obvious at first, but Camellia makes a decent bow user too. Nice debuffs (second spirit Stone, like @Gromnir already said), nice buffs, and the damage output is nothing to balk at either. Give her a few levels of Loremaster for some fun, like adding Sense Vitals to the spell list and the Deadeye bow (-2 AC on hits), Evil Eye and Metal Curse. -10 AC in two rounds, not too shabby. Plus the obligatory Elemental Barrage proccs.

Grab the necessary proficiencies by adding a level of Demonslayer or whatever else you like, but Evil Outsider is a fairly useful favored enemy in this game.  

Now, if only...

Spoiler

...she would not be into getting pounded hard by the main character in the viscera of her murder victims after consuming their flesh,

she would be really useful, would she not?  I mean, less disagreeable to have around. She's useful. Uhm. Yeah.

[ShadySands]

I don't kink shame but I don't like liars in my party 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by ShadySands
I wanted the old style emoji

[InsaneCommander]

Being good, my character is having only good/neutral aligned characters in the party. She also dislikes Camellia's and Daeran's arrogance as nobles, Daeran's mockery of the crusaders and Camellia's attitude when Ember was recruited.

Spoiler

Interestingly, she didn't have any problem with Regill's decisions, since the wounded would've died anyway (or worse) and he did eventually give more supplies to the Paladins.

The funny thing is that my character is also a noble (courtier, just like Camellia) and I think nobody ever acknowledged that so far. Plenty of references to Skald and Aasimar (and even to her being a Cayden Cailean's devout), but nothing about being a noble. Horgus Swerm actually called her a commoner once. Funny that, once I did his second request.

For my next playthrough I'll go with a Cruoromancer and the party will be very different.

Edited August 26, 2022 by InsaneCommander

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

3 hours ago, ShadySands said:

I don't kink shame but I don't like liars in my party 

What about deception based kinks?

28 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

and even to her being a Cayden Cailean's devout

While Cayden is objectively the best diety in Pathfinder (fite me irl sobriety), I wish there was more to the him in WotR than getting slipped a divine beer. At least on the Azata path, I heard there's some stuff for him in Trickster but have not confirmed.