ranDom vIdeO game news

[Lexx]

The writing clearly suffered from the "more = better" crap that was going on back then. I still blame Planescape: Torment for this. We all thought that more text = better rpg, because of a single miracle case of a game that came out like 20 years ago. Oh boy how wrong we were.

Turns out it's really not the amount of text, but the quality of text that matters. Lots of the stuff in PoE1 could have been cut out and nothing of value would have been lost. Stuff like reading the "souls" or whatever that was didn't help it either..

Edited January 21, 2022 by Lexx

[Bartimaeus]

1 minute ago, Lexx said:

The writing clearly suffered from the "more = better" crap that was going on back then. I still blame Planescape: Torment for this. We all thought that more text = better rpg, because of a single miracle case of a game that came out like 20 years ago. Oh boy how wrong we were.

Turns out it's really not the amount of text, but the quality of text that matters. Most of the stuff in PoE1 could have been cut out and nothing of value would have been lost. Stuff like reading the "souls" or whatever that was didn't help it either..

Planescape: Torment also has the benefit of taking place in an already established setting. A lot of the basics of the world don't need to be explained in-game because of that, plus you can play more heavily into the setting because it's already at least a little familiar to some degree for most of your likely players. Quite the opposite with PoE - brand new setting, new races and creatures, new rules, strange names and phrases, and just way too much of all of it. Planescape: Torment was able to engross me with its writing, but PoE wasn't - not even close. Unfortunate.

[Humanoid]

Despite at that point already knowing that that style of game was no longer to my tastes, I did give PoE a good honest go. Not on launch, where I got bogged down before even getting to the big city, but a few years later where I managed to will myself to the point I unlocked the stronghold. However that slowed the game down even more and I just stopped playing not long afterwards.

Now, I believe I did this at some point after PoE2 launched, but before it gained the turn-based mode, or at the latest while it was still in the experimental build. I did play PoE2 when it launched too, in two phases, one where I tried to play normally for the first starter island, then I threw my hands up, set it to story difficulty, and tackled some stuff in the big city. Turns out in story mode you still die quite a lot if you try to let the party AI resolve combat while wearing starting gear. So that too, was the end of that.

 

I have no strong opinion on the writing in either game.

[Keyrock]

For me, Pillars' biggest misstep was the ungodly amount of filler battles you had to suffer through. Also, there were so many enemies that would teleport around the battlefield that tactical positioning of your meat shields to protect your squishies was meaningless. Also also, I don't remember if tank classes had aggro pulling skills, but if they did then they weren't worth a damn, because I surely would have used them and I couldn't hold aggro on my tanks.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Keyrock

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, Keyrock said:

For me, Pillars' biggest misstep was the ungodly amount of filler battles you had to suffer through

An ungoshly amount of filler battles that takes so long to get through. The BG series had hundreds of filler battles...but they usually only took literally maybe 30 to 60 seconds to get through. In PoE, they still take just about as much time and consideration as a "real" battle, and it's such a danged drag when it just keeps happening endlessly. You would really have to enjoy the core combat mechanics in order for that not to be an issue, and I just...don't.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[kanisatha]

9 hours ago, ShadySands said:

I dunno, I think the other isometric games of the time did well enough for that not to be the issue. I mean, I didn't like PoE very much but I still gave Deadfire a shot and thought that it was much better in most respects. Maybe others didn't give Deadfire a chance not because of isometric but because of the first game.

I also agree it cannot be the iso perspective or being party-based. Many other contemporary projects have shown the cRPG format still has plenty of draw.

My personal theory on PoE2, which I have mentioned many times before and stand by, is that the very complex and opaque mechanics of PoE1&2 is what was a turn-off for many of today's gamers. For a cRPG to be popular today, its mechanics have to be either: (1) simple and easy to understand (i.e. the D:OS games), or (2) be based on the D20 system, because that's been around for 50 years and people are very familiar with it (i.e. the Pathfinder games).

[uuuhhii]

2 hours ago, Keyrock said:

For me, Pillars' biggest misstep was the ungodly amount of filler battles you had to suffer through. Also, there were so many enemies that would teleport around the battlefield that tactical positioning of your meat shields to protect your squishies was meaningless. Also also, I don't remember if tank classes had aggro pulling skills, but if they did then they weren't worth a damn, because I surely would have used them and I couldn't hold aggro on my tanks.

the filler combat are actually difficult in highest difficulty

even though enemy are unreasonably tanky

at least it was not mindless

[Mamoulian War]

2 hours ago, Keyrock said:

For me, Pillars' biggest misstep was the ungodly amount of filler battles you had to suffer through. Also, there were so many enemies that would teleport around the battlefield that tactical positioning of your meat shields to protect your squishies was meaningless. Also also, I don't remember if tank classes had aggro pulling skills, but if they did then they weren't worth a damn, because I surely would have used them and I couldn't hold aggro on my tanks.

They had aggro pulling skills, and I used them extensively during my playthrough. Maybe it was a case, where you maybe did something wrong, while leveling up your tanks. Dunno. The only battle where I had issue with tanking was the battle with Kaoto, and his monks adds, or what was his name... But I have used a lot for deaggro the cleric bubble level 1 or 2 spell (dunno the name)...

[Amentep]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

An ungoshly amount of filler battles that takes so long to get through. The BG series had hundreds of filler battles...but they usually only took literally maybe 30 to 60 seconds to get through. In PoE, they still take just about as much time and consideration as a "real" battle, and it's such a danged drag when it just keeps happening endlessly. You would really have to enjoy the core combat mechanics in order for that not to be an issue, and I just...don't.

I backed the second game, but still have yet to play it.  I just barely finished the first.  At the risk of sounding like a filthy casual gamer, the mechanics was a bit more than I wanted to deal with in the first game and all through the production of Deadfire it just seemed like they doubled down on the mechanics.  It seems to work well for some people, but it made the game feel a bit of a chore to me.

[Sarex]

10 hours ago, ShadySands said:

I dunno, I think the other isometric games of the time did well enough for that not to be the issue. I mean, I didn't like PoE very much but I still gave Deadfire a shot and thought that it was much better in most respects. Maybe others didn't give Deadfire a chance not because of isometric but because of the first game.

I for sure am in that camp, when I stopped leveling in PoE is when I stopped playing it. At that point I saw everything that the game had to offer and had no interest in continuing. The biggest thing that bothered me gameplay wise was the health mechanic system (apart from balance being the game design pillar).

[BruceVC]

58 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

I also agree it cannot be the iso perspective or being party-based. Many other contemporary projects have shown the cRPG format still has plenty of draw.

My personal theory on PoE2, which I have mentioned many times before and stand by, is that the very complex and opaque mechanics of PoE1&2 is what was a turn-off for many of today's gamers. For a cRPG to be popular today, its mechanics have to be either: (1) simple and easy to understand (i.e. the D:OS games), or (2) be based on the D20 system, because that's been around for 50 years and people are very familiar with it (i.e. the Pathfinder games).

 

27 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

They had aggro pulling skills, and I used them extensively during my playthrough. Maybe it was a case, where you maybe did something wrong, while leveling up your tanks. Dunno. The only battle where I had issue with tanking was the battle with Kaoto, and his monks adds, or what was his name... But I have used a lot for deaggro the cleric bubble level 1 or 2 spell (dunno the name)...

Do you guys think PoE1  is fine to play now, I dont play games when they first released because of bugs so I generally wait 3-5 months or until the game is relatively stable ?

I have it on Steam so Im good to go 

[Malcador]

https://twitter.com/Syberia/status/1484556491927531521?s=20

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Malcador

[rjshae]

18 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

 

Do you guys think PoE1  is fine to play now, I dont play games when they first released because of bugs so I generally wait 3-5 months or until the game is relatively stable ?

I have it on Steam so Im good to go 

It was fine to play three years ago. The expanded White March content vastly improved the game, although the final chapter was still not as good as the rest IMO. The only thing lacking was the character build system of PoE2.

[Mamoulian War]

52 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

 

Do you guys think PoE1  is fine to play now, I dont play games when they first released because of bugs so I generally wait 3-5 months or until the game is relatively stable ?

I have it on Steam so Im good to go 

I played it approx 2 years ago, and I have enjoyed it. But as you have seen around, it is hit or miss, for me it was big hit

[Zoraptor]

Yeah, White March was a massive improvement and Deadfire built on those improvements too. Deadfire is a good game, if it has an intrinsic weakness it's still the Quest for Balance, though it's toned down a lot from PoE1. The irony with that is despite all the balancing you hit the level cap (pet peeve of mine) with about a quarter of the game to go- and it's worse for PoE where I hit the level cap in part 1 of TWM.

Most of the issues with PoE1 have been covered- too much of everything, really- but I think that the fundamental problem was, paradoxically, that too much effort was put in.

So it was too big, had too much writing, too much combat and everything had been exquisitely balanced. But, balanced gameplay is one of those things that people say that they desperately want, but don't actually want (well, excluding multiplayer type games). What they want is something that is interesting, and not too imbalanced. If you look at well regarded RPGs and hybrids from the late 90s to early 2000 you see... System Shock 2, hopelessly imbalanced; Deus Ex, full of exploits; Baldur's Gate 2, full of exploits and not very balanced; Planetscape: Tournament, where literally (and seemingly literally literally) no one likes the combat. And the successful contemporary RPGs have much the same pattern- the 'fun' of DOS2 is finding the appropriate ludicrous exploit for a particular battle, not its finely balanced systems because they aren't balanced at all.

[Sarex]

And it's not like it's hindsight that balance being the main focus was a bad idea, a not so small amount of people here on the forums were very much against it and were saying that it would make the game boring...

There was also the dreaded metagaming. That some encounters were unfair and only beatable with metagaming knowledge. So we got not memorable fights.

And on, and on, and on... It's sad that the lead creator was someone who did not like the basis of the games he was trying to emulate.

[Zoraptor]

It's understandable though. A lot of the popular mods for things like SS2 or BG2 or Deus Ex are all about rebalancing things. And while a lot of people love the cheesy mage battles of BG2, the silly over the top mage/ kensai dual class builds etc etc there are others who think they're just stupid and detract from the game.

The classic example would be if you asked someone if they wanted off archetype builds like a 'smart' fighter to be a valid build in an RPG; they'll probably say yes, because fighters shouldn't have to be muscle bound morons. That sort of build is basically a self handicap in D&D though, and especially so in 2e like BG2. But when you actually apply the system  to make a 'smart' fighter viable you then get people complaining about how that effects the systems and makes everything play the same or whatever. The other classic is trash mobs vs challenging fights. People will say they want meaningful, challenging fights. What they really want most of the time is trash mobs they can blow through quickly to make themselves feel awesome, and boss fights they can win with more difficulty to make themselves feel awesome. Every fight being a tactical challenge is not something most people really want, but it is something people feel like they have to say.

[Hurlshort]

This discussion is exactly why JE Sawyer is burnt out.

[Gizmo]

"Apogee and 3D Realms’ “Rise of the Triad Remastered” is coming to PC and consoles in 2022"

[Image is the link]

Edited January 21, 2022 by Gizmo

[Sarex]

20 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

It's understandable though. A lot of the popular mods for things like SS2 or BG2 or Deus Ex are all about rebalancing things. And while a lot of people love the cheesy mage battles of BG2, the silly over the top mage/ kensai dual class builds etc etc there are others who think they're just stupid and detract from the game.

The classic example would be if you asked someone if they wanted off archetype builds like a 'smart' fighter to be a valid build in an RPG; they'll probably say yes, because fighters shouldn't have to be muscle bound morons. That sort of build is basically a self handicap in D&D though, and especially so in 2e like BG2. But when you actually apply the system  to make a 'smart' fighter viable you then get people complaining about how that effects the systems and makes everything play the same or whatever. The other classic is trash mobs vs challenging fights. People will say they want meaningful, challenging fights. What they really want most of the time is trash mobs they can blow through quickly to make themselves feel awesome, and boss fights they can win with more difficulty to make themselves feel awesome. Every fight being a tactical challenge is not something most people really want, but it is something people feel like they have to say.

I think the amount of people who use mods is negligible to the amount that play the game.

I never did like the idea of holding the players hand and eliminating the possibility of a wrong choice. In theory it sounds nice, but as you say it makes it everything the same. Oh the fighter is so smart that he only hits critical points... whatever...

I don't think it was ever advocated to remove minor fights, just not to remove xp from them. It made the annoying fights, just annoying.

 

[BruceVC]

Someone on Codex has some information about Elder Scrolls VI, it may conjecture but it may be true. It includes the following 

-Combat now has timed counters/ripostes and directional attacks.
-You can do a short directional dodge like in Doom Eternal. The number of charges/cooldown is determined by Agility skill.
-They're dropping the two-hand system. Spellcasting has a dedicated button again like Oblivion. Two weapon wielding is still in.
-There is limb/head/torso damage like in Fallout 4 but nothing similar to VATS is planned.
-Spears are in. Spears don't power attack but "brace" if you hold the attack button down so the attack animation plays automatically when enemies are in range.
-Crossbows are in at every materials tier.
-Mounted combat is going to be a big part of the game. You can ride horses and camels and certain other creatures, and so can enemies.
-Most of the shouts from skyrim are now in as spell effects.
-Wands/staffs work differently now. Holding a wand/staff instead of a normal weapon increases the power of your spells. But they have limited charge. You can hit people with them but they do less damage than a normal weapon.
-The soul gem system is going to be overhauled. Not sure how. It's felt that making the player constantly go into their inventory to pick soul gems for recharging weapons interrupts gameplay too much.
-They also want to clean up potion bloat in inventory. Instead of alchemy affecting intensity/duration of potions, it will gate which potions you can brew. There will be special recipes you can find as loot.
-Enchantments will be similar. Instead of increasing intensity the Enchanting skill gates which effects can be picked from a preset list. Each effect will require certain items in addition to the soul gem. Again there will be secret enchanting "recipes" you can find.
-Dungeons now have obstacles like climbable walls, chasms that need to be jumped, or piles of rocks that need to be moved. Your Agility or Athletics skills gate these. You can either boost Agility or Athletics skills or use Levitation spells, potions or enchantments.
-The lockpick minigame is gone and lockpicks aren't a separate item anymore.
-Perks selection works like it did in Fallout 3.
-The game is set in Hammerfell. The concept art looks like Wakanda/desert depending on the area. The desert areas look either egyptian or arabian nights.
-There will be lots of pyramid/tomb dungeons with mummies that look like drauger. Their heads/arms can come off if damaged and they will keep attacking.
-The Dwarven material tier looks bronze age/ancient egyptian themed now. I think the mummies are supposed to be some kind of dwarves.
-New enemies are sphinxes, gorillas, alligators, hippos, giant snakes, genies and some creatures that look like those egyptian gods with animal heads.

[pmp10]

18 hours ago, Lexx said:

The writing clearly suffered from the "more = better" crap that was going on back then. I still blame Planescape: Torment for this. We all thought that more text = better rpg, because of a single miracle case of a game that came out like 20 years ago. Oh boy how wrong we were.

Turns out it's really not the amount of text, but the quality of text that matters. Lots of the stuff in PoE1 could have been cut out and nothing of value would have been lost. Stuff like reading the "souls" or whatever that was didn't help it either..

It's wasn't even the amount of text but that majority of the bloat was lore-dumping.
I know BG2 did it trying to imitate Tolkien but for me it really doesn't work outside of book format. 

[sorophx]

Quote

Professional reviews of the game were strong and it still sold poorly, both compared to the first title and compared to our competitors. Frankly, PF:Kingmaker, DOS2, and BG3 are all wildly outperforming Deadfire.

this is kind of depressing, tbh, since I think Deadfire is vastly superior to both of those games. but I didn't finish it anyway, because it has too much content. I wish there was a "resolve combat automatically" button.

but to be fair, I never finished either of the DOS or PF games, even though I own them. they are just complete crap in my unprofessional opinion.

[Humanoid]

Stalling on D:OS halfway through the first act when I first tried it playing "normally" - i.e. single-player with a full party - then coming back a year or two later in co-op Lone Wolf mode (one character each) and absolutely adoring it was the affirmation that my CRPG tastes had completely flipped. It was a slow process that probably started with DA1 but which now I fully embrace.

Never played any variant of Pathfinder and don't plan to unless they add co-op or design a solo adventure.

[Lexx]

I never finished PoE1 because it was simply too long and for me it lost a lot of steam later. However, I think PoE2 was exactly the right size and hell, I even finished it twice.