The all things Political Topic - For who in this dark, dream-haunted Land dares Resist the righteous flame of Wrath And Doom themselves to despair and death?

[Zoraptor]

On 6/8/2021 at 2:22 AM, Darkpriest said:

If WSJ is putting this, is it still just a fringe conspiracy theory?

The current main WSJ contributor on the Chinese covid 19 theory- and the guy who broke the story about sick workers- has been used extensively to launder dodgy intelligence in the past. When he worked for the NYT most of the inaccurate information given by that paper was bylined by Judith Miller andor Michael R Gordon. At least he wasn't involved in outing a serving CIA officer because her husband was politically embarrassing though, unlike Miller.

[Gromnir]

Evil Incorporated makes multiple commercials about how much they value their employees and nobody cares. Big Oil Inc has an ad campaign which states they is concerned 'bout the environment and everybody just kinda rolls their eyes. raytheon makes their profile pic look like a color wheel more appropriate for kelly moore and it's newsworthy and a debate topic? 

...

well, ok then.

am gonna admit am outta touch on a few issues. 

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/christian-right-worships-donald-trump-915381/

the bit about obama hoisting the rainbow flag being a slap in the face to evangelical christians and God were a genuine surprise to us. sure, we understood more than a few evangelicals were tending towards the extreme, but am thinking we vast underestimated just how widespread were the vitriol and venom. white and working class voted for obama in a big way. the implication it were obama's rainbow flag and trump's christian values which were contributing to a mass exodus o' evangelical voters were so unreasonable we had a hard time with such an explanation. 

@Hurlshot is correct. is less 'bout Big Corp embracing a color wheel than it is 'bout the predictable inflammatory response from far too many americans. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 9, 2021 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

7 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

Since we are slightly on the subject, this guy got his job back by court order:

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/national-international/byron-tanner-cross-reinstated-transgender-pronouns-virginia/2564721/?_osource=SocialFlowFB_BAYBrand&fbclid=IwAR1MDF4wmvUgheZC2o3OywZ0G6AC4AJ0TY3NqICB4F4CHJBMe2K-SgvGOlM

You know, I've had about 2 transgender students in 20 years of teaching. It's not a very common situation, and in elementary it would be even more rare. So this guy was basically protesting over something he will almost never actually encounter. Also, I tend to call my students what they want. I've got a ton of kids with hard to pronounce names, and they prefer to be called something else. It would be a **** move to keep butchering their names. So this guy is just a **** using religion as his excuse.

I have always appreciated your stance on human rights and specifically LGBT rights . We may not always  agree on topics like  economic policy and immigration but I have never questioned your integrity, value system  or that you mean well

Also I wanted to add I think its great  that your daughter has parents like you and your wife because she will grow up in an environment where she will be loved and raised without any discrimination about something that she cannot change because she was born a certain way. Homophobia is an insidious and also a  blatant form of bigotry and unfortunately its one of the only forms of bigotry that some countries are passing new or resurrecting Colonial laws, in the case of certain African countries, to discriminate and criminalize LGBT

So we should never underestimate the reality of this type of bigotry

I just want to add that sometimes people do indeed hide behind religion to spread  hate speech and they  pander to  their own insecurities about other people who are just different

But sometimes religious people are not true bigots but they are trying to be good Christians when it comes to the Bible. For example in SA through the years I have heard callers sometimes phone in on talk-shows  and honestly make comments like " I dont dislike the gay people but scripture tells me its wrong so I cannot support it " 

That is different to some of the real hate speech  we sometimes encounter from people justifying their bigotry by hiding behind scripture 

 

[Gorth]

It looks like my old country has adopted the immigration policy of my current country...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57343572

"Denmark has passed legislation allowing it to relocate asylum seekers to third countries outside the European Union while their cases are reviewed.

The project, proposed by the Social Democrat-led government, would seek partner countries to run camps and fund agencies along migration routes"

 

Just like Australia has an agreement with Papua New-Guinea, Denmark has made an agreement with Rwanda. In the future, asylum seekers will be sent to holding camps in Rwanda and if they qualify for asylum, will be allowed to settle in Rwanda.

 

Edit: Just to nip it in the bud before people start crying "Outrageous! or How can that be safe?" etc. Rwanda ranks (in 2017) as the ninth safest country in the world to be in according to the World Economics Forum (something a lot of western countries should take note of) http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_TTCR_2017_web_0401.pdf

[BruceVC]

21 minutes ago, Gorth said:

It looks like my old country has adopted the immigration policy of my current country...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57343572

"Denmark has passed legislation allowing it to relocate asylum seekers to third countries outside the European Union while their cases are reviewed.

The project, proposed by the Social Democrat-led government, would seek partner countries to run camps and fund agencies along migration routes"

 

Just like Australia has an agreement with Papua New-Guinea, Denmark has made an agreement with Rwanda. In the future, asylum seekers will be sent to holding camps in Rwanda and if they qualify for asylum, will be allowed to settle in Rwanda.

 

Edit: Just to nip it in the bud before people start crying "Outrageous! or How can that be safe?" etc. Rwanda ranks (in 2017) as the ninth safest country in the world to be in according to the World Economics Forum (something a lot of western countries should take note of) http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_TTCR_2017_web_0401.pdf

Its  a reasonable decision and definitely one legitimate way  to address the burden of illegal and unrestrained immigration we see throughout the world

Governments can make deals with countries like Rwanda so that they can process asylum  seekers, Rwanda is a very safe country and  is one of the best run African countries on the continent, its one of the African countries I have worked in and it has an excellent investor environment.  Yes they have some issues around the autocratic tendencies of their government and specifically their president Paul Kagame but this is a minor issue at the moment and no valid reason Rwanda cant be used to relocate immigrants so dont feel guilty Gorthfucious about Denmark's decision 

Also their are plenty of African  refugee camps throughout Africa already established that house millions of African refugees so this is not something new or something that is unusual 

http://www.africaranking.com/biggest-refugee-camps-in-africa/

 

[ComradeYellow]

The statue says it so I guess send them over here.

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, ComradeYellow said:

The statue says it so I guess send them over here.

But we must be honest and specific, " Freedom welcomes all who arrive with papers " 

[Darkpriest]

Sometimes i wish they just stopped putting opinions on the news pieces, but i guess everything revolves around politics nowadays and you need to endure crappy clickbaits

The underlying issue reported though is a valid observation and indeed it gives more power to China in any economic disputes and attempts at decoupling driven by US. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/more-european-firms-onshoring-china-offshoring-complicates-bidens-decoupling-plan

[Darkpriest]

17 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

That certainly is homophobic. Objecting to someone else's marriage based on religion is bad. You don't have to marry a man, but you don't need to tell two adults what their marriage needs to look like.

If someone objects to a bi-racial marriage, would you consider that racist? 

You might have a whole lot of Africa, South America and Asia to account for and convince. 

 

That said, I very much support moves for equal rights and opportunities, but i stop supporting such at the notion of equal outcomes no matter what the input other than some 'assigned' characteristics. 

I have various friends of a different than majority sexual orientation and even they say, some of the stuff being talked about is ridiculous and outright hurting people like them in their move for equal rights and opportunities (as the more extreme views stick like a **** to a certain image and are used to define majority of the community). 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Darkpriest

[Guard Dog]

5 hours ago, Gromnir said:

Evil Incorporated makes multiple commercials about how much they value their employees and nobody cares. Big Oil Inc has an ad campaign which states they is concerned 'bout the environment and everybody just kinda rolls their eyes. raytheon makes their profile pic look like a color wheel more appropriate for kelly moore and it's newsworthy and a debate topic? 

.

To tell you the truth I just thought it was an opportunity to get my funny little quip about the inclusiveness of high explosive detonations in. I didn’t figure we’d still be talking about it two pages later.

[BruceVC]

49 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

To tell you the truth I just thought it was an opportunity to get my funny little quip about the inclusiveness of high explosive detonations in. I didn’t figure we’d still be talking about it two pages later.

You and Gromnir need to get a room and end all this.....tension   

[Gfted1]

Wait, I thought locations where illegal immigrants are housed for processing are called concentration camps now? Weird.

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Wait, I thought locations where illegal immigrants are housed for processing are called concentration camps now? Weird.

You correct to raise the egregious abuse of the words " concentration camps"  when comparing  them to ICE detention centers. They not the same and we should reject this type of populism and hyperbole and not ever refer to them like that 

I hear the same thing in SA where some activists  suggest legitimate and legal Refugee camps we should have in SA are akin to " death camps " and " concentration camps " ....its insulting to  compare  what a concentration camp really is, and the millions of people who have globally and historically died in them, to detention centers that you see in places like US and other countries 

[Guard Dog]

54 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

You and Gromnir need to get a room and end all this.....tension   

He’s not my type. Never date someone smarter  than you!

[Guard Dog]

Democrats in the House re-introduced a bill to protect abortion rights
 

I don’t know if this has wheels but I can think of nine people who live in Washington who would be very very happy if this became law.

[Gromnir]

there is a tendency to conflate extermination camps and concentration camps. not the same thing. hopeful we don't need a venn diagram for something so obvious. the misunderstanding is based on ignorance but we s'pose is understandable given how the nazi death camps is what most folks think o' when concentration camps is referenced. japanese internment camps in the US during ww2 were not extermination facilities, but they were concentration camps. the cyprus internment camps for jews post ww2 fit the definition o' concentration camp w/o being extermination facilities. china and the uyghurs? not a tough question.  if political/ethnic/religious groups is secured (imprisoned) together w/o full due process and in conditions substandard, then is a fair argument one has crossed the line between a relocation/detention facility and a concentration camp.

the trump administration, for example, were making it near impossible for those in their immigrant detention facilities to actual have a meaningful legal hearing in addition to the ridiculous soap and sleep arguments made in the video. the obama administration were arguing it were ok to place mothers in solitary confinement, secluded from their children for considerable periods o' days/weeks if they complained 'bout conditions in their detention facilities... and the same freaking doj attorney argued for obama that such solitary confinement were okie dokie. if the failures o' a government to maintain basic standards o' health, safety, due process and human dignity is systematic as 'posed to just unfortunate isolated instances, then the reluctance to use the concentration camp label would appear to be mired in a kinda reflexive obtuseness as 'posed to being a reasonable conclusion. 

am unable to speak to australian or denmark's relocation camps. we got zero notion as to whether or not such facilities cross some line 'tween relocation facility and concentration camps.

HA! Good Fun!

ps perhaps we shoulda' added multiple trigger warnings.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Gromnir

[rjshae]

There's an interesting perspective in this NPR article:

There's A Stark Red-Blue Divide When It Comes To States' Vaccination Rates

I was expecting some differences, but that's just stunning. The good news is that most states are at the 50% mark or higher.

[Gfted1]

@BruceVC ^^Concentration camps confirmed. F-ing Danes.

[Darkpriest]

26 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

@BruceVC ^^Concentration camps confirmed. F-ing Danes.

So when are they going back to the roots of setting policies with a DaneAxe? 

[BruceVC]

12 hours ago, Gromnir said:

there is a tendency to conflate extermination camps and concentration camps. not the same thing. hopeful we don't need a venn diagram for something so obvious. the misunderstanding is based on ignorance but we s'pose is understandable given how the nazi death camps is what most folks think o' when concentration camps is referenced. japanese internment camps in the US during ww2 were not extermination facilities, but they were concentration camps. the cyprus internment camps for jews post ww2 fit the definition o' concentration camp w/o being extermination facilities. china and the uyghurs? not a tough question.  if political/ethnic/religious groups is secured (imprisoned) together w/o full due process and in conditions substandard, then is a fair argument one has crossed the line between a relocation/detention facility and a concentration camp.

the trump administration, for example, were making it near impossible for those in their immigrant detention facilities to actual have a meaningful legal hearing in addition to the ridiculous soap and sleep arguments made in the video. the obama administration were arguing it were ok to place mothers in solitary confinement, secluded from their children for considerable periods o' days/weeks if they complained 'bout conditions in their detention facilities... and the same freaking doj attorney argued for obama that such solitary confinement were okie dokie. if the failures o' a government to maintain basic standards o' health, safety, due process and human dignity is systematic as 'posed to just unfortunate isolated instances, then the reluctance to use the concentration camp label would appear to be mired in a kinda reflexive obtuseness as 'posed to being a reasonable conclusion. 

am unable to speak to australian or denmark's relocation camps. we got zero notion as to whether or not such facilities cross some line 'tween relocation facility and concentration camps.

HA! Good Fun!

ps perhaps we shoulda' added multiple trigger warnings.

 

 

This is an interesting debate but I am not convinced that ICE detention camps  or the Danish refugee camps can ever be characterized as Concentration camps. Their is a definition that defines what a concentration camp is and as of yet that definition doesnt include illegal immigrants  being temporarily house before being  deported or  setting up camps to process immigrants wanting to immigrate to a particular country

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/concentration-camp

https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp

So camps or detention centers created to house immigrants can lead to people living in bad conditions but when you say a concentration camp that is something setup specifically to target a group of people during war or for  political reasons. But that is not what a detention center is as they exist purely to process illegal immigrants or people without papers now waiting to be processed but these are people who have arrived at your country

So how the Uyghurs are being treated and confined within China isnt  because they illegal immigrants, this is all part of  the flawed and autocratic policies of the CCP and how they demand stability within their country 

Detention centers\relocation camps are not the same as concentration camps and their definitions shouldnt be used interchangeably 

To quote from the second link

Concentration camps are to be distinguished from prisons interning persons lawfully convicted of civil crimes and from prisoner-of-war camps in which captured military personnel are held under the laws of war. They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons.

Edited June 10, 2021 by BruceVC

[Gromnir]

@BruceVCtime of war is not an element o' the definition. "usually during a war," is how your simple dictionary definition describes, yes? and you appear convinced the chinese efforts rise to a level where you would describe as concentration camps in spite o' absence o' war, so might as well just round file the war bit. element v. factor. element is required. factor contributes. war is not an element o' the definition.

moving on then, why do you ignore the rest of the definition you linked... though am thinking you probable could do better than an encyclopedia.

Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order. Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial...

so, the government argues the need to imprison immigrants w/o due process o' law when those immigrants come from central and south america and cross at the us-mexico border, individuals who has committed no criminal act, while subjecting such persons to conditions the judges in the video found deplorable and systemic. again, the folks in ice detention have not been convicted o' any crime... for chrissakes bruce, they have not been given a trial or even a hearing. 

and is not Gromnir who is using interchangeable. as we noted, we have no idea what the situation is with denmark or australia's relocation facilities. are the detainees in rawanda being held w/o due process of law? if a specific group o' persons is being targeted and detained w/o due process of law, then am suspicious. why is bruce not? if those held w/o due process o' law is forced to endure conditions which US judges repeated has described as unacceptable, then am more than suspicious. why is bruc not similar skeptical of the relocation label?  

btw, given how vapid were the excuses for changes to ice guidelines and immigration practices under the trump administration, it would be ez to argue the victims o' the previous administration's nativism qualify as political prisoners, but we ain't even gonna bother going down that thorny path save to recognize the obviousness o' our avoidance. 

you disagree with chinse policy, so the chinese is deserving the concentration camps label. see, the problem is you are making a value judgement 'bout motivations as 'posed to looking at definitions and whether facts support the definition. but for the existence o' nazi death camps, am suspecting more people would be willing to describe ice detention facilities as concentration camps. the problem is you don't see the US as being as evil as the nazis or the 2021 chinese, and you do not see the treatment o' ice detainees as equivalent bad as ww2 jews or 2021 uyghurs. 

am gonna suggest bruce is doing wrong. dispassionate concentration camps definitions, w/o the nazi example, would be far less evocative. am suspecting bruce, like many other persons, is being distracted from the actual definitions as 'posed to judging situations based on how evidence supports the application o' those definitions. 

and again, an extreme important aspect bruce is overlooking is that the detainees in ice facilities is not having been convicted o' any crime or even having been afforded a hearing. no due process of law.   btw, 'cause some is forgetting, a non-citizen crossing the US border other than at a designated checkpoint does not result in a violation o' criminal law. don't like that reality? think is wrong? fine. change the law. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Zoraptor]

Don't know about Denmark but for Australia at least detention of illegal immigrants is outright mandatory, and they also last month brought in literal indefinite detention, without trial, for those who aren't granted refugee status but cannot be returned due to danger in their home countries. Which is slightly illegal under international law, but probably plays well to Scummo's electoral base- and there's an election due within the next year.

Anybody with a serious belief that refugee centres cannot also be concentration camps should have a look at Australia's Manus Island abomination and try arguing seriously that that doesn't fit the definition. They even use nazi style descriptors for the policy- Papuan Solution and Pacific Solution, foisted upon their ex colonial territories. Particularly egregious for Nauru, since it got absolutely ruined by catastrophic phosphate strip mining with no remediation, all so Australia could have cheap fertiliser- and of course now the phosphate is gone they have little choice other than to accept Australia's 'offer' of refugee processing since they desperately need the money.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

@BruceVCtime of war is not an element o' the definition. "usually during a war," is how your simple dictionary definition describes, yes? and you appear convinced the chinese efforts rise to a level where you would describe as concentration camps in spite o' absence o' war, so might as well just round file the war bit. element v. factor. element is required. factor contributes. war is not an element o' the definition.

moving on then, why do you ignore the rest of the definition you linked... though am thinking you probable could do better than an encyclopedia.

Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order. Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial...

so, the government argues the need to imprison immigrants w/o due process o' law when those immigrants come from central and south america and cross at the us-mexico border, individuals who has committed no criminal act, while subjecting such persons to conditions the judges in the video found deplorable and systemic. again, the folks in ice detention have not been convicted o' any crime... for chrissakes bruce, they have not been given a trial or even a hearing. 

and is not Gromnir who is using interchangeable. as we noted, we have no idea what the situation is with denmark or australia's relocation facilities. are the detainees in rawanda being held w/o due process of law? if a specific group o' persons is being targeted and detained w/o due process of law, then am suspicious. why is bruce not? if those held w/o due process o' law is forced to endure conditions which US judges repeated has described as unacceptable, then am more than suspicious. why is bruc not similar skeptical of the relocation label?  

btw, given how vapid were the excuses for changes to ice guidelines and immigration practices under the trump administration, it would be ez to argue the victims o' the previous administration's nativism qualify as political prisoners, but we ain't even gonna bother going down that thorny path save to recognize the obviousness o' our avoidance. 

you disagree with chinse policy, so the chinese is deserving the concentration camps label. see, the problem is you are making a value judgement 'bout motivations as 'posed to looking at definitions and whether facts support the definition. but for the existence o' nazi death camps, am suspecting more people would be willing to describe ice detention facilities as concentration camps. the problem is you don't see the US as being as evil as the nazis or the 2021 chinese, and you do not see the treatment o' ice detainees as equivalent bad as ww2 jews or 2021 uyghurs. 

am gonna suggest bruce is doing wrong. dispassionate concentration camps definitions, w/o the nazi example, would be far less evocative. am suspecting bruce, like many other persons, is being distracted from the actual definitions as 'posed to judging situations based on how evidence supports the application o' those definitions. 

and again, an extreme important aspect bruce is overlooking is that the detainees in ice facilities is not having been convicted o' any crime or even having been afforded a hearing. no due process of law.   btw, 'cause some is forgetting, a non-citizen crossing the US border other than at a designated checkpoint does not result in a violation o' criminal law. don't like that reality? think is wrong? fine. change the law. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You make some good points but I am not sure we are debating the same thing, its probably because I havent explained properly what I mean. 

Their are massive differences and reasons for the creation of  institutions like prisons, prison of war camps, detention centers and concentration camps. We dont get to decide our own definitions of what defines these things

If you look at the ICE detention centers they only exist to hold and process illegal immigrants or people without papers. They dont target legal US citizens but a concentration camp can exist to target citizens who are legally in that country but they fall under a certain ethnic group, religion or race

The ICE detention centers dont do this, they dont target all people from Central America because of their race. When you say people are held without a trial I dont understand what you mean. Why do you need a trial  if you are caught trying to cross a border illegally ?Surly either you have papers and you enter a country legally or you dont, thats how all immigration works globally. You are expected to have papers to live, enter or work in a country. You dont need a trial to tell us this ?

And in the case of China, I am not saying they are definitely using concentration camps but the CCP has adopted other highly unethical and inhumane  measures to " reeducate " the Uyghurs so I have  a long list of issues around the Chinese strategy but I am not saying they are using concentration camps  because the information  we have is limited and so  is access to where the Uyghurs  live as is usual with the CCP and their control of information 

And you right, I dont consider the US government to be anything like the NAZI's or even remotely like the CCP and  its unlikely I ever will unless the US government starts to act like these governments 

 

[Guard Dog]

 

On 1/6 Trump gives a speech in which we says “let’s walk over to the capital and let them hear you” or words to that effect. I doubt he meant for them to do what they did but well they did it. Nobody is going to argue that he is at the very least partially responsible for what followed. But it’s been decided he is not criminally responsible. So that’s that. No the former director of FBI Counter Intel under Obama is suggesting he and a number of Congress members be arrested. Not for what happened on January 6. It’s to Make sure they don’t do it again.

Yahoo tried to clean that up a little bit with the headline but if you read what the man actually said he’s talking about preemptively arresting people who haven’t done anything yet to keep them from doing something. That in itself would be unremarkable except a few weeks ago the Biden nominee for the BATF one David Chipman suggested people who are turned down for a firearm purchase because of a background check problem (yes they do that in all 50 states in case you are wondering) should be “arrested on the spot” . His reasoning being that they will just try to get a firearm illegally And commit  crimes later. His exact quote was “while at ATF I conducted studies involving people who failed background checks to determine how many later committed crimes with a gun. Many did. This is a perfect opportunity to arrest people before committing crimes rather than responding after the fact.“ 

Nice. We’re going to start arresting people before they commit crimes. Or at least people of one particular political leaning think we should. Small wonder they favor nationwide red flag laws. A process in which the law enforcement tell you “you can have your freedom and property returned once you prove to us you will not commit a crime in the future“.  I could definitely see the people like some in the Trump administration considering that also.  Incidentally the president of Nicaragua just ordered his police to arrest all of the challengers to his office in the next election. Trump will LOVE that. Come to that didn’t Joe Biden just give him a boatload of money?

Edited June 10, 2021 by Guard Dog

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://gizmodo.com/doj-vows-to-hunt-down-whoever-let-the-public-know-how-l-1847066780

I love when I have to check if an article is from the Onion or not.