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14 minutes ago, Amentep said:

Personally, I find it funny that all of the mailers I've received with instructions on how to vote by mail are from Republican affiliated organizations using Trump's name on them.

Not all churches in the US preach prosperity gospel, though...

Eh, people don't open the door for Census takers, I doubt that they'd get a lot of traction with door-to-door voting. Excepting Jehovah's Witnesses, Census Takers, and people trying to see if you are home before breaking into your house, no one really goes door-to-door anymore.  Not even Trick-or-Treaters on Halloween... 😛

Well, the thing is, if you can't verify who is voting and in what state the vote was cast vs what was the vote at registration of the result, then you have a flawed system. 

One of many reasons, why for example in Poland the mail-in votes were dropped and rejected, and why there is a ****storm for all the costs of printing etc that went into its preparation.

 

I'd imagine with way more populace, in various density areas it would be even more difficult to perform in USA.

 

Safety meassures and extended number of days to vote, would be much better and would close the discussion

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46 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Why? I do.

You also get qualified  Christian scientists who study and believe in science but they Christian 

 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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5 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

God doesn't play dice.

What do you mean, I have no idea what you are referring to ?

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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44 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

God doesn't play dice.

Not only does He play dice, but the dice are loaded.

 

38 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

What do you mean, I have no idea what you are referring to ?

It's a quotation of Einstein - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/God_does_not_play_dice_with_the_universe

Edited by Malcador
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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Temp worker tossed Pennsylvania ballots Trump complained about, official says

so, where is the story? 

is a bit like when the heritage foundation uncovered nearly 1000 examples o' state and fed voter fraud... over the past forty years. 

particular as the usps removed so many high-speed mail sorting machines, we should expect a few stories o' human error regarding the mails. we are talking hundred o' millions o' mail transactions. where human error is possible, examine a large enough pool o' examples and potential human error becomes inevitable. 

the usps should work harder to reduce human error, but pretend as if these extreme rare news stories is indicative o' a fundamental flaw o' mail in voting, much less the bat-crap crazy effort to spin predictable blunder as a leftist plot to steal the election is more transparent trump silliness... and like so much similar siliness, is more meaningful to track who posts and appears convinced by such tinfoil hat fodder than to waste effort on the stories themselves.

HA! Good Fun!

 

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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34 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

Temp worker tossed Pennsylvania ballots Trump complained about, official says

so, where is the story? 

is a bit like when the heritage foundation uncovered nearly 1000 examples o' state and fed voter fraud... over the past forty years. 

particular as the usps removed so many high-speed mail sorting machines, we should expect a few stories o' human error regarding the mails. we are talking hundred o' millions o' mail transactions. where human error is possible, examine a large enough pool o' examples and potential human error becomes inevitable. 

the usps should work harder to reduce human error, but pretend as if these extreme rare news stories is indicative o' a fundamental flaw o' mail in voting, much less the bat-crap crazy effort to spin predictable blunder as a leftist plot to steal the election is more transparent trump silliness... and like so much similar siliness, is more meaningful to track who posts and appears convinced by such tinfoil hat fodder than to waste effort on the stories themselves.

HA! Good Fun!

 

If people don't trust the system then we fall apart, BLM and Antifa claim disenfranchisement and there's some truth to it. We saw how Bernie got shafted in the DNC election and how Seth Rich died in an "attempted robbery"; a common trope around the Clintons, as some suspect he leaked the info of how the DNC conspired against Bernie. Now they don't vote; they riot, which is exactly what workers in the Bernie campaign said it would happen.

Its about trust not efficacy, if people don't trust the results then they no longer feel represented and things will get tense.

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

village_idiot.gif

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seth rich?

as we said, trump efforts to undermine the democratic process with tales o' sinister plots appeals to those with a high degree o' bullsh!t receptivity. is a transparent ploy but it is, beyond all reason, effective. 

the conspiracy theories themselves are utter banal, but they is helpful in identifying those vulnerable souls in need o' special care and consideration.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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8 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

seth rich?

as we said, trump efforts to undermine the democratic process with tales o' sinister plots appeals to those with a high degree o' bullsh!t receptivity. is a transparent ploy but it is, beyond all reason, effective. 

the conspiracy theories themselves are utter banal, but they is helpful in identifying those vulnerable souls in need o' special care and consideration.

HA! Good Fun!

You sound like the kind of oblivious that believes that Al Capone was a model citizen that just avoided taxes. Cause obviously if Al Capone was a mafia boss Gromnir would know, just like he knew about Epstein...why didn't you say anything then?

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

village_idiot.gif

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5 hours ago, majestic said:

<SNL video>

"I have dual citizenship... with the United States and Florida"

"let's just proceed as if this is going really well"

😂

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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@Gromnir

The mail-in vote is simply unreliable and unsecure.

 

These two things will be used to batter the f. out of each other, no matter what the result will be. 

 

If this is a correct assumption:

"Each citizen of the USA of a voting age has a right to one and only one vote" 

Then how do you make sure of that?

1) Did you make sure that each citizen got the one and only one ballot? How did you confirm that? 

2) Is the ballot secured, i.e. has enough protection to make it secure from forgery attempts?

3) How do you make sure, that the person filling the ballot is the one, who should be filling it, in other words, how in a building of many residents, you assure that each person eligble to vote, marked their vote only on a one ballot?

4) How do you make sure, that you've collected all the properly filled ballots? 

5) Are the filled ballots secure from being viewed and or altered by unauthorized individuals? 

6) How do you prevent someone from casting a vote at a localle and sending the mail-in ballot? Which one do you count if both happened? Which one is more important and why? 

7) How do you decide that the absence of a mail-in vote was a result of the voters decision and not bad actor or mafunction of the delivery/collection system? 

 

The point is, can you prove beyond any doubt, that such form of voting is at least equally accurate and secure as the in person voting at a specific location? 

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33 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

@Gromnir

The mail-in vote is simply unreliable and unsecure.

 

These two things will be used to batter the f. out of each other, no matter what the result will be. 

 

If this is a correct assumption:

"Each citizen of the USA of a voting age has a right to one and only one vote" 

Then how do you make sure of that?

1) Did you make sure that each citizen got the one and only one ballot? How did you confirm that? 

2) Is the ballot secured, i.e. has enough protection to make it secure from forgery attempts?

3) How do you make sure, that the person filling the ballot is the one, who should be filling it, in other words, how in a building of many residents, you assure that each person eligble to vote, marked their vote only on a one ballot?

4) How do you make sure, that you've collected all the properly filled ballots? 

5) Are the filled ballots secure from being viewed and or altered by unauthorized individuals? 

6) How do you prevent someone from casting a vote at a localle and sending the mail-in ballot? Which one do you count if both happened? Which one is more important and why? 

7) How do you decide that the absence of a mail-in vote was a result of the voters decision and not bad actor or mafunction of the delivery/collection system? 

 

The point is, can you prove beyond any doubt, that such form of voting is at least equally accurate and secure as the in person voting at a specific location? 

I cant give you answers to all those, I am expecting Gromnir to respond with actual data and links and reasons why  what you saying isnt a concern

But this I do know, the USA has had many states that for years have had mail-in vote and its been fine. There have been examples of " mail voting fraud " but its seriously small like 1 % compared to the total number of legitimate votes 

So if mail-in vote has always been a part of how some US citizens vote there is no reason it cant work overall effectively in November ?

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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6 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I cant give you answers to all those, I am expecting Gromnir to respond with actual data and links and reasons why  what you saying isnt a concern

But this I do know, the USA has had many states that for years have had mail-in vote and its been fine. There have been examples of " mail voting fraud " but its seriously small like 1 % compared to the total number of legitimate votes 

So if mail-in vote has always been a part of how some US citizens vote there is no reason it cant work overall effectively in November ?

I'm happy to be educated in that process, but I'd say the scale issue would still be a factor. I have no knowledge of the pre-existin mail-in system, who could use it or what were the conditions to use it and results of it. 

 

I just saw, that the large scale mail-in presidential election had to be cancelled and moved in Poland by a few months, due to privacy concerns, reliabilty of the process and accuracy of the process. 

Instead additional health safety measures and longer voting period were established

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22 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

I'm happy to be educated in that process, but I'd say the scale issue would still be a factor. I have no knowledge of the pre-existin mail-in system, who could use it or what were the conditions to use it and results of it. 

 

I just saw, that the large scale mail-in presidential election had to be cancelled and moved in Poland by a few months, due to privacy concerns, reliabilty of the process and accuracy of the process. 

Instead additional health safety measures and longer voting period were established

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-vote-by-mail-explainer-idUSKBN2482SA

 

Here is good read why vote by mail has always worked in the USA and addresses current concerns 

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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2 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

@Gromnir

The mail-in vote is simply unreliable and unsecure.

 

These two things will be used to batter the f. out of each other, no matter what the result will be. 

 

If this is a correct assumption:

"Each citizen of the USA of a voting age has a right to one and only one vote" 

Then how do you make sure of that?

1) Did you make sure that each citizen got the one and only one ballot? How did you confirm that? 

2) Is the ballot secured, i.e. has enough protection to make it secure from forgery attempts?

3) How do you make sure, that the person filling the ballot is the one, who should be filling it, in other words, how in a building of many residents, you assure that each person eligble to vote, marked their vote only on a one ballot?

4) How do you make sure, that you've collected all the properly filled ballots? 

5) Are the filled ballots secure from being viewed and or altered by unauthorized individuals? 

6) How do you prevent someone from casting a vote at a localle and sending the mail-in ballot? Which one do you count if both happened? Which one is more important and why? 

7) How do you decide that the absence of a mail-in vote was a result of the voters decision and not bad actor or mafunction of the delivery/collection system? 

 

The point is, can you prove beyond any doubt, that such form of voting is at least equally accurate and secure as the in person voting at a specific location? 

1, 2) It doesn't matter how many ballots citizen gets, as checking is done when election office receives the ballot.  Ballots are sealed in secure envelopes, which contains voters identification information and signature which are compared to voter registry. Ballot inside of the envelope is counted only if information and signature in the envelope matches information and signature in registry. If information matches then election office will mark that person as voted and no other votes from that person will be counted, meaning other mail-ballots or in person vote.  So forging somebody's vote you need official mail-in secure envelope, ballot used in the state where person lives and person information from voter registry (same information is used to open bank accounts, getting loans, buying houses etc. things, meaning that it is sensitive and secure information which can used by criminals much more effectively in some other places than forging single vote in election).

3) You need that voter registry information about the person, so people that live in same apartment building would have quite hard time to get that information. This question is more relevant when it comes to spouses, parents and children voting for their 'loved' one, which is reason why mail-in voting is not used in Finland.

4) Ballots are mailed and they need to be in election office in certain day in order to be 'properly filled' , in some states and some cases ballots that come after election day are also counted mainly to ensure that votes from members of military that are deployed over seas  will be counted. But making sure that all the ballots are collected and dropped to election office is responsibility of USPS and therefore sitting president.

5) Ballots are in sealed envelopes and envelopes aren't valid if seal has been broken

6) Voter registry is used to prevent multiple votes from same person. Same way as it is used to prevent people voting in multiple location in person.

7) Same way as you decide that people not voting in person was persons decision and not fault of poorly organized voting locations and not working voting machines and long queues

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I believe locally there is an option, to vote in by mail, but it's always on the voters request. 

You need to call in, provide your ID details from your document, then you'd have mail sent to you, which you need to receive to your hands and sign confirmation upon receipt. You get 2 attempts to contact you at your location by a postman, and if not present, then after each visit, you get 7 days to pick it up in person from your local post office. 

You get prepaid envelope for the send back and when sending the mail, you get receipt for the envelope sent, thus you can check later on, if the mail was delivered. 

Once you are confirmed to have sent the mail by cerain date, you are crossed out from your voting locale. 

 

This is not a process than can be upscaled easily, and other solutions were shot down due to privacy protection as the major concern. 

 

Hence I was wondering how it would work in US

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17 minutes ago, Elerond said:

1, 2) It doesn't matter how many ballots citizen gets, as checking is done when election office receives the ballot.  Ballots are sealed in secure envelopes, which contains voters identification information and signature which are compared to voter registry. Ballot inside of the envelope is counted only if information and signature in the envelope matches information and signature in registry. If information matches then election office will mark that person as voted and no other votes from that person will be counted, meaning other mail-ballots or in person vote.  So forging somebody's vote you need official mail-in secure envelope, ballot used in the state where person lives and person information from voter registry (same information is used to open bank accounts, getting loans, buying houses etc. things, meaning that it is sensitive and secure information which can used by criminals much more effectively in some other places than forging single vote in election).

3) You need that voter registry information about the person, so people that live in same apartment building would have quite hard time to get that information. This question is more relevant when it comes to spouses, parents and children voting for their 'loved' one, which is reason why mail-in voting is not used in Finland.

4) Ballots are mailed and they need to be in election office in certain day in order to be 'properly filled' , in some states and some cases ballots that come after election day are also counted mainly to ensure that votes from members of military that are deployed over seas  will be counted. But making sure that all the ballots are collected and dropped to election office is responsibility of USPS and therefore sitting president.

5) Ballots are in sealed envelopes and envelopes aren't valid if seal has been broken

6) Voter registry is used to prevent multiple votes from same person. Same way as it is used to prevent people voting in multiple location in person.

7) Same way as you decide that people not voting in person was persons decision and not fault of poorly organized voting locations and not working voting machines and long queues

Great information, thanks for sharing and the comparison to  Finland is appreciated and applicable :thumbsup:

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Are we really talking about voter fraud like it is a thing here? It isn't.

More than 40 percent of the US doesn't vote. That's a thing. That's a big number. The 0.01 percent of votes that get lost, or are dead people, or get counted twice are not the issue.

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Let's agree, that it wasn't so far. That's clear. 

 

At the same time, you'll have more focus and scrutiny, more opportunists hoping to "fix" USA one way or another. You have more tensions, more division and partisanship in population than probably in any election after WW2 up to this one.

 

I'm sure, that no matter who will win,if it will not be a landslide, than the other party will be pointing to "manipulated" or "fraudulent" mail-in voting. 

 

Are you sure of yourself, that you will not be looking for something odd there, if Trump would win in a highly contested election with small differences in several states? 

 

The voting process needs to be "bullet-proof" otherwise each side will be sueing the other into oblivion

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1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

Are we really talking about voter fraud like it is a thing here? It isn't.

More than 40 percent of the US doesn't vote. That's a thing. That's a big number. The 0.01 percent of votes that get lost, or are dead people, or get counted twice are not the issue.

It IS a thing for local elections where even a hundred votes one way or the other could turn an election. But a presidential election with 130+ million votes cast you could not fraud your way into that.

Get off my lawn!

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