Politics 2020 - the gift that keeps giving

[Elerond]

Here leftist again blaming police even though this incident was fault of dog's owners

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/08/24/video-of-detroit-police-officer-fatally-shooting-dog-through-fence-goes-viral/

"Despite a 6-foot high metal fence and signs that say “Beware of the Dog,” the officer’s police commander is blaming the dog’s owner and is warning other Detroit dog owners to keep their dogs “in their backyards and this won’t be an issue.”"

[Guest]

7 hours ago, MedicineDan said:

Politicians use people, and that leads to a cycle that perhaps we live today. 

That's one possible interpretation.

The world only has a limited number of attempts at democratic republics, but I think with even a couple of examples to work from, one might infer the existence of another cycle:

Step 1: form a system of self-government where it's assumed that the citizenry will uphold their end of the bargain (i.e. pay attention, educate themselves on important issues, think critically, vote)

Step 2: hobble along while the citizenry systemically basically stops doing all of those things

Step 3: blame politicians for the current state of affairs

Step 4: watch democratic republic descend into some other form of government that founders never believed possible because why would citizens ever not love their way of life enough to not do the bare minimum required to maintain it

All this to say, I think it's easy to sit back and complain about how much politicians suck. It's a lot harder to own the fact that we do this to ourselves and are the only ones who can fix it (see: the argument made at 1:18-ish in the video above)

You and I agree on much, friend. I suspect at the end of day, our opinions don't differ as much as it might seem. Cheers!

[ShadySands]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

So its not just  a US problem, its global and occurs in certain countries and we need to be concerned with this type of protest and what is acceptable 

I'm not finding much on this. Would you mind providing some more info? If not then no worries but from what you've posted and what little I've found it doesn't seem like running rampant is a good description.

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, ShadySands said:

I'm not finding much on this. Would you mind providing some more info? If not then no worries but from what you've posted and what little I've found it doesn't seem like running rampant is a good description.

I'm more than happy to post links to support my argument or the  framing of the word " rampant " if you are genuinely interested? I dont mean to sound rude but it will take me some time to post the appropriate links and I dont want to spend time if this is just about the word rampant, if that is your concern I will drop the word ?

I have been following the pernicious and insidious influence some of these far left groups have on many Democracies since 2010  and I have really interesting links and its a good debate to have and your opinion will be very good to know 

[Volourn]

"But volo look at what happens to our societies when we have a breakdown of law and order ....look at the anarchy and violence we see when groups like Antifa are allowed to run rampant ?

So I am  very surprised you are okay with less laws and the enforcement of these laws that politicians are involved in considering how you understandably feel about violent protests?"

 

We have too many laws, and some absolutely ridiculous laws. Plus, the law, lawyers, police, and judges, all abuse them. Even the most accomplished, intelligent lawyers can't hope to know and understand all laws. It was big law firms tend to hire a bunch of new grad for crap jobs so they can pour over legal ttexts 20 hours a day to find that one legal loophole that the  ace lawyer can use as a 'gotcha' moment in court. LMAO

 

We should be trimming legal fat not adding more to it.

[Guard Dog]

Column: Here’s why Kyle Rittenhouse, the teen shooting suspect in Kenosha killings, is likely to get off

I wouldn't convict him. Not of homicide at least. The weapons charge there is no getting out of. 

[HoonDing]

"I have been following the pernicious and insidious influence some of these far left groups have on many Democracies since 2010  and I have really interesting links and its a good debate to have and your opinion will be very good to know "

 

you mean the KGB?

[Bartimaeus]

50 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Column: Here’s why Kyle Rittenhouse, the teen shooting suspect in Kenosha killings, is likely to get off

I wouldn't convict him. Not of homicide at least. The weapons charge there is no getting out of. 

I never did get around to reading the whole story on this one, but I did see the video where he was almost lynched and wondered how the hell they all got to that point. Reading at least the wikipedia series of events, I probably wouldn't convict him, either. Horrible spat of violence made possible by a whole bunch of people (including him) making unwise decisions, certainly, but by all accounts, the entire thing started with somebody else firing a gun randomly and him getting bum-rushed by a load of people who assumed it was him, and him acting in self-defense in a kill-or-be-killed situation. Regardless of the legality of his age or why or how he got there, you don't deserve to be murdered for not threatening anyone. Unless there's something we don't yet know, doing otherwise would just be victim-blaming.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Bartimaeus

[Hurlshort]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Column: Here’s why Kyle Rittenhouse, the teen shooting suspect in Kenosha killings, is likely to get off

I wouldn't convict him. Not of homicide at least. The weapons charge there is no getting out of. 

Sure. Of course, these protests are all happening because a bunch of minorities were given death sentences for very little cause, while this kid can stroll into said protests with a big gun.  

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Hurlshot

[Guard Dog]

8 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

Sure. Of course, these protests are all happening because a bunch of minorities were given death sentences for very little cause, while this kid can stroll into said protests with a big gun.  

 

Point of fact he can’t. Which is why I said he is going to end up with jail time on the weapons charge. But it’s not a hard argument to make the shooting was in self-defense. The funny thing about self-defense laws is “he shouldn’t have been there in the first place” is not a valid argument

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Column: Here’s why Kyle Rittenhouse, the teen shooting suspect in Kenosha killings, is likely to get off

I wouldn't convict him. Not of homicide at least. The weapons charge there is no getting out of. 

Yeah, lots of stupid choices to go around there - cops in Kenosha are too scared to tell these people to GTFO, I guess, and leads to this nonsense.

https://www.channel3000.com/militia-member-says-kenosha-police-sought-to-push-protesters-toward-them-on-night-of-deadly-shootings/

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Malcador

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, ShadySands said:

Still not sure why this belief appeals to you so much

White South African banker? I'd be surprised if he wasn't terrified of antifa/ blm.

(Julius Malema, as an example of what might broadly be classified as RSA 'BLM')

[ComradeYellow]

32 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Yeah, lots of stupid choices to go around there - cops in Kenosha are too scared to tell these people to GTFO, I guess, and leads to this nonsense.

https://www.channel3000.com/militia-member-says-kenosha-police-sought-to-push-protesters-toward-them-on-night-of-deadly-shootings/

 

The less authority cops have, the better.

I really see no hope for police at this point.  I mean what exactly are they protecting and serving?

[HoonDing]

I'm sure Bruce is perfectly within his gated community.

[ShadySands]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I'm more than happy to post links to support my argument or the  framing of the word " rampant " if you are genuinely interested? I dont mean to sound rude but it will take me some time to post the appropriate links and I dont want to spend time if this is just about the word rampant, if that is your concern I will drop the word ?

It's just that it sounds more like you're trying to push a narrative more than anything. Like you're trying to tie anything even possibly left wing to the very worst of that side like what I keep seeing with the BLM and Antifa. I don't know if it's an attempt to make it more easily dismissible or what but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt because we're all coming from different places and perspectives.

[ComradeYellow]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Point of fact he can’t. Which is why I said he is going to end up with jail time on the weapons charge. But it’s not a hard argument to make the shooting was in self-defense. The funny thing about self-defense laws is “he shouldn’t have been there in the first place” is not a valid argument

Honestly, in my humble opinion, it all boils down to the district attorney's agenda and how s/he perceives the big picture to it in relation to the incident.  People naturally protect their tribe.

[Malcador]

Trump is the champion against the MIC I guess - https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2020/09/07/trump-rips-into-us-military-leaders-but-insists-soldiers-love-him/#82017492087b

 

[Skarpen]

[Bartimaeus]

Is that the same incident I described here:

...or did he do it again?

[Skarpen]

13 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Is that the same incident I described here:

...or did he do it again?

Might be the same. I saw at least two different occasions when he did that. Both not recently.

[BruceVC]

14 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

White South African banker? I'd be surprised if he wasn't terrified of antifa/ blm.

(Julius Malema, as an example of what might broadly be classified as RSA 'BLM')

Im not terrified of Antifa\BLM\EFF\OWS\BLF ( similar to BLM but much worse but based in SA ), I am very concerned with violent protests but more importantly what are the tangible and real outcomes these groups represent because their nebulous objectives wont address inequality 

12 hours ago, HoonDing said:

I'm sure Bruce is perfectly within his gated community.

Yes many South Africans do live in gated communities, and I have lived from about 25 years old in gated communities,  but this has got nothing to do with "whiteness " ( one of my worst words ) and elitism. Many non-white people also stay in gated communities if they can afford it.  It has to do with the high levels of crime, we have about 50 murders a day and about 150 rapes day. So people in gated communities pay for private security just for a "normal"  way  of life. Oh and you will be happy to know I dont stay now in a gated community  in Cpt , I stay in an apartment block but we have private security sign people in to prevent any unwanted or criminal entry 

 

12 hours ago, ShadySands said:

It's just that it sounds more like you're trying to push a narrative more than anything. Like you're trying to tie anything even possibly left wing to the very worst of that side like what I keep seeing with the BLM and Antifa. I don't know if it's an attempt to make it more easily dismissible or what but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt because we're all coming from different places and perspectives.

I am glad you made this post because this is exactly why I didn't want to spend the 20-30 minutes posting the appropriate links expecting you to engage in a debate around the points I raised. Please in future just make a post like this if you have a question around my motives and why I say what I say if you have any concerns because I like you and will always try to respond to what you ask unless I just dont have time or I miss the post 

My view around the narrative has not changed much on this forum, I have been consistent and open about what concerns me around left wing economic objectives that can lead to  the erosion of our institutions around continued economic transformation and growth. So yes my views are part of a narrative that basically doesn't agree with sweeping attacks on the private sector as being the primary  problem in our modern economies, unreasonable criticism to the positive aspects of free market economics  and I also believe you can only go so far with highlighting real historical injustice but by not focusing on prudent economic and political  policies that will address poverty and inequality this objective becomes misplaced 

But ignoring the violence and allowing the protests we see in  some US cities  to continue I will never support 

Edited September 8, 2020 by BruceVC

[ShadySands]

That's pretty much what I expected

Thank you

[BruceVC]

https://theweek.com/speedreads/936204/trump-says-hes-fine-investigation-usps-chief-louis-dejoy-alleged-illegal-donations

 

It looks like DeJoy has been linked to some serious allegations around illegal donations .....it doesnt look good 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

20 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I never did get around to reading the whole story on this one, but I did see the video where he was almost lynched and wondered how the hell they all got to that point.

As described in the article, he had shot (and killed someone, as video shows him saying on his phone) before being chased. I'm not sure if he will be convicted or not, but given the initial cause of the protests and how Rittenhouse was and is being treated paints a picture of favoritism towards specific people from law enforcement and courts.

[Bartimaeus]

18 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

As described in the article, he had shot (and killed someone, as video shows him saying on his phone) before being chased. I'm not sure if he will be convicted or not, but given the initial cause of the protests and how Rittenhouse was and is being treated paints a picture of favoritism towards specific people from law enforcement and courts.

Saw the opposite described: in the first encounter, he was being chased and attacked before shooting in self-defense (after which he said "I just killed someone" in a 9/11 call), and then there was a second encounter (the video that I saw) where he shot at several people that were trying to lynch him. I'd be more than happy to be corrected, but it's literally what I'm reading right now in the wikipedia article. Unknown is the exact reason why they were chasing him in the first encounter - that is seemingly not described anywhere, and depending on how that came to be might change my opinion. Did he raise and point his gun at somebody, or did they just rush him because he was clearly not with them and open-carrying a rifle in a riot, or something else? As distasteful and stupid as I find open-carrying a rifle to be (especially in the middle of a riot), I would not consider it to be a clear and present threat to anyone else that would require attempting to attack and disarm him (most likely the minimum of what they intended to do to him in the first encounter - after the first shooting, of course, they seemed to be clearly out for blood).

Regarding favoritism: I am absolutely of the opinion that there's an issue of institutional racism and favoritism, buuuuut...that has nothing to do with the micro-details of this particular case and whether he should be convicted or acquitted.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Bartimaeus