Guard Dog Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 49 minutes ago, Gromnir said: regardless, is all theatre at this point, and the nutters buying out local ammo supplies and arming themselves for the inevitable apocalypse in the face o' such imaginary drama is not gonna help the problem. sheesh. HA! Good Fun! No, that is a good thing. In a year when the world does not end they will be selling that stuff to guys like me on gunbroker.com for pennies on the dollar! "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Cop Union head being what I've expected from the head of a Cop Union - Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skarpen Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Malcador said: A fine words. At least police union have an honorable man at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Malcador said: Cop Union head being what I've expected from the head of a Cop Union - these guys do not get it, but there is a reason they don't get it. is similar as to why police association in buffalo didn't get it after the old guy they pushed fell and cracked his skull while cops moved on looking for more folks to push and shove and strike. cops got a whole lotta experience and training which reinforces their notions o' what is reasonable use o' force. training tells 'em, literal, is best to not hesitate when themselves, other cops and civilian bystanders could be injured by a suspect-- go straight to violence. the one cop in the minneapolis situation who expressed concern over what were happening to george floyd were the guy with only four days o' experience on the job. is precise 'cause he had so little on-job experience that we suspect he were better able to see the situation reasonable. the other cops, 'cause o' years o' reinforced training and observation o' fellow cops, knew that even when a fellow cop may be going too far, as 'tween fellow cops and a suspect who gave police an excuse, fellow cop always gets benefit o' the doubt. and just 'cause am suspecting our message might get lost, am believing racism is a big problem with the police. again, cops is looking for an excuse once they is in a situation where they believe it is essential they show they ain't weak. fail attitude test and riot control is just such situations. cops is far less reluctant to restrain self if the suspect is a minority. there is centuries o' systemic racism which has led minorities to be distrustful o' police, so is hardly surprising minorities express such distrust when confronted by cops. distrust expressed becomes yet another excuse for cops. unfortunate, we, as a people, can't discuss racism. other than to admit racism is bad we can't talk 'bout race issues in a real way in this country 'cause it makes everybody uncomfortable, and Gromnir don't see any fix for that issue. race is an important factor in the excessive force by cop debate, however, am thinking people need realize just how casual is the everyday violence and brutality US cops traffic. just as bob kroll don't get it, am thinking ordinary viewer is similar misunderstanding. we looks at george floyd and see the exception, 'cause the knee to the back o' the neck lasted near nine minutes. such violence must needs have been motivated by mental illness or racism or... whatever. no excuse for such violence in that situation, so must needs be something else. cops see different. cops see only thing wrong being the nine minutes as 'posed to perhaps three. if george floyd had been pinned such for a minute-and-a-half, and lived, nobody would care and would be no protests, or so goes the cop narrative. cops don't see anything wrong with the initial use o' force and until we get to such a root problem, will be no change. the old guy in buffalo weren't pushed 'cause he were white or old or 'cause the cops were mentally ill. old guy were pushed 'cause cops were in a crowd control situation surrounded by dozens o' other cops and the cops believed their training and fellow cops demanded a show o' force. am not wanting to marginalize the racism aspect if for no other reason than fact we have been on the receiving end o' such... more than once. nevertheless, having kinda, to a limited degree, seen the law enforcement side o' the equation, am recognizing all too well just how fundamental and foundational is violence in the US police experience. if you address police excessive force as a race issue, then am suspecting change will not be achieved 'cause in pressure situations, which is what cops face all the time, they is gonna revert to training and experience. *shrug* am not having any real answers on this issue. institutional and legal obstacles to change is worse than many is aware. cultural issues is at least a generation or two removed from making change possible. every person has a camera phone, so we the public is actual finally getting to see some o' such violence. also, we got a extreme diverse population in the US with massive income disparity issues which tend to fall along racial lines. for chrissakes, we has spent a fair time in asia and US police coddle suspects compared to what we has seen in even Japan. this kinda thing is handled and reported different in other nations and where is largely a homogenous society, this crap is functional less an issue. am all out o' answers. HA! Good Fun! 6 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Maybe there is a page to be taken from the military playbook here. Usually I go full porcupine when police and military are compared. When I cops following some military traditions like the 3 creases, hand salutes and such it annoys the hell out of me. Who the f--k do they think they are? But... I digress... On of the biggest reason cops result to casual brutality so easily is, in their work, they lose the ability to empathize. It IS a terrible job. You spend years neck deep in some of the worst situations the human race has to offer. They become jaded and cold and oftentimes lost the ability to see the people they interact with as human beings. It happens because they are always on the "front line" so to speak. When you join the military as an infantryman or other "front line" position you will not be there your whole career. You won't even be there for half of it. You will move up and on into leadership and administrative positions or other jobs in the service altogether. But a policeman can start his 1st day as a patrolman and retire 40 years later as a patrolman. Here is what I propose. A maximum "front line" patrolman tour of 10 years. After that you can move into some other aspect of police work, accept promotion, etc or take a 50% retirement. A walk away package of 50% benefits once you reach retirement age. That is not a terrible deal. Suppose you were a 24 year old rookie. In 10 years if you have not moved up and can walk away at age 34 with retirement benefits and still young enough to begin a second career doing something else. Leaving cops on the frontline of LE means they get meaner, colder, and more dehumanized. They may not even mean to but the psyche will do that as a defense mechanism. When Derek Chauvin had George Floyd pinned down he didn't even regard Floyd as a human being. He likely thought of it as stepping on a roach and genuinely could not understand why people were so upset. They need to be removed form the field BEFORE they get there. That idea coupled with decriminalizing non-violent offenses to "turn down the temperature" on police interactions with the public along with some reforms in training would go a long way to fixing what's wrong. It won't fix racism. I don't know what will do that other than time. 4 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, Guard Dog said: When I cops following some military traditions like the 3 creases, hand salutes and such it annoys the hell out of me. Who the f--k do they think they are? Well, they think they're not civilians as well. It is pretty funny to compare a soldier and a cop just in terms of bearing, they had a bunch of Ontario cops do military drills in formation way back when we had the G20 here - was a sight. Cops' actions that weekend did a huge amount of damage to police reputation too. Related to that wonder why police departments pay for things like this -https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/02/dave-grossman-training-police-militarization/ Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agiel Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 The belief that law enforcement in "high-risk jurisdictions" need an approach resembling counter-insurgency operations overseas seems to massively overlook what actual counter-insurgency work entails: Public diplomacy Training indigenous forces Infrastructure construction 3 Quote “Political philosophers have often pointed out that in wartime, the citizen, the male citizen at least, loses one of his most basic rights, his right to life; and this has been true ever since the French Revolution and the invention of conscription, now an almost universally accepted principle. But these same philosophers have rarely noted that the citizen in question simultaneously loses another right, one just as basic and perhaps even more vital for his conception of himself as a civilized human being: the right not to kill.” -Jonathan Littell <<Les Bienveillantes>> Quote "The chancellor, the late chancellor, was only partly correct. He was obsolete. But so is the State, the entity he worshipped. Any state, entity, or ideology becomes obsolete when it stockpiles the wrong weapons: when it captures territories, but not minds; when it enslaves millions, but convinces nobody. When it is naked, yet puts on armor and calls it faith, while in the Eyes of God it has no faith at all. Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of Man...that state is obsolete." -Rod Serling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Guard Dog said: Leaving cops on the frontline of LE means they get meaner, colder, and more dehumanized. They may not even mean to but the psyche will do that as a defense mechanism. When Derek Chauvin had George Floyd pinned down he didn't even regard Floyd as a human being. He likely thought of it as stepping on a roach and genuinely could not understand why people were so upset. They need to be removed form the field BEFORE they get there. just as likely and far more terrible is the following explanation: derek chauvin thought he were doing his job. sooper cop were training. chauvin likely were racist, but, for sake of argument, let's say he were also trying his best to teach rookies the skills necessary to be effective pO'leese. when were the last time most o' us posters here on the obsidian boards were punched in the face by somebody serious wanting to do us harm? how many o' us wouldn't go out of our way to avoid even the possibility o' such violence? with floyd resisting, even just a little, sooper cop has opportunity to show rookies how hard one need be as a cop, 'cause that is what chauvin believed were necessary. maybe chauvin went further than he typical would precise 'cause, god help him, he saw the floyd confrontation as a teachable moment. as 'posed to a monster who saw floyd as bug-like, is more or less disturbing to see chauvin as a diligent trainer o' rookie cops doing his best to pass on skills needed by the next generation o' police? now keep in mind, gd theory and Gromnir suggestion is NOT mutual exclusive, but am thinking is a mistake to try and dehumanize folks such as chauvin. am not doubting chauvin is a deeply flawed man. even so, would be a mistake to not consider the possibility that chauvin were, in the moment, doing what he thought were right... and that is the real stuff o' nightmares, eh? complete aside, and no doubt seeming inconsequential to present debate is our belief cop overtime exploitation is not helping excessive force problem. cops, in many departments, have an opportunity to make as much/more money per annum in overtime as they does in base pay. recognition a large % o' cops take advantage o' overtime opportunities to an unhealthy degree-- is only slight hyperbole to suggest sleep deprived cops is nearing the norm as 'posed to the exception. as such, all too often cops is in high intensity situations where they need make split second value judgements while burdened by both fear and sleep deprivation. what could possible go wrong? @Agiel the message from wh to governors regarding how to deal with protesters does not place an emphasis on winning hearts and minds. anybody surprised? HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 If this means that the answer to every problem is no longer "more cops on the streets", then we are getting somewhere. Because for as long as anyone can remember "more cops on the streets" has been used as an empty political gesture presented as a panacea. Now, the answer isn't "no cops on the street" either. Complex problems require complex solutions. But... law enforcement is mostly treating the symptoms. Generational poverty, racism, these are the diseases. 3 Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 I would love to see the police help build infrastructure. I have no idea how that would look and how feasible it would be, but I just like the idea of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 "derek chauvin thought he were doing his job." Chauvin was reprimanded 10+ times during his career. Clearly he was not good at his job. The fact he managed to keep his job so long is a huge travesty. and led to the tragedy that he commit. This superiors who repeatedly kept him on the job without firing him should be disciplined - demotion, suspension without pay, maybe even firing because they clearly couldn't tell a good cop from a bad one. As for the union letter, there are good points in there but there are also some eyerollers too. Black lives matter? All lives matter? I say, I have a new catchphrase: ALL SIDES SUCK. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Volourn said: "derek chauvin thought he were doing his job." Chauvin was reprimanded 10+ times during his career. no. chauvin were disciplined twice-- two times in eighteen years. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 So who was spreading FAKE NEWS who tricked me into gobbling up? LMAO Internet, oh you, and your lies. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Just now, Volourn said: So who was spreading FAKE NEWS who tricked me into gobbling up? LMAO Internet, oh you, and your lies. not internet. likely bad reading skills from vol. internet will tell vol there were eighteen complaints for chauvin, but only two disciplines, with one case still open. now, in retrospect, is strong reason to believe chauvin shoulda' been disciplined more. is perhaps a good argument for why police should not be investigating themselves. nevertheless, vol misinterpreted and mental transposed discipline and complaint. bad vol. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raithe Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Heh, an interesting point someone made.. 1 "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Volourn said: As for the union letter, there are good points in there but there are also some eyerollers too. Yep, I liked the casual mention of Floyd having a violent criminal past as if that is relevant somehow. But again, can't expect much from a mere cop. 53 minutes ago, Volourn said: ALL SIDES SUCK. Apathy is death, Volo. Edited June 8, 2020 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raithe Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 Not actually sure how accurate.. but it did amuse me: "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 49 minutes ago, Gromnir said: not internet. likely bad reading skills from vol. internet will tell vol there were eighteen complaints for chauvin, but only two disciplines, with one case still open. now, in retrospect, is strong reason to believe chauvin shoulda' been disciplined more. is perhaps a good argument for why police should not be investigating themselves. nevertheless, vol misinterpreted and mental transposed discipline and complaint. bad vol. HA! Good Fun! You leave Mr. Volo alone, you! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 https://globalnews.ca/news/7021882/rcmp-incel-terrorism-guide/ Incels are going to be in the RCMP's terrorism awareness guide, have had 2 incel attacks in 2 years here. The comedy in this is seeing on Reddit how the same people who want to dome every degree of Islamic extremist preach sympathy for these losers. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 49 minutes ago, Hurlshot said: You leave Mr. Volo alone, you! compared to vol, hurl is just a n00b, so misunderstanding is understandable. point o' fact, am thinking vol would be disappointed if we were to give him some kinda special clemency. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orogun01 Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Raithe said: Heh, an interesting point someone made.. And the fact that the Democratic party is being push to the insane left is why the Dems might have to reform into new party, specially since right now they're looking more like the Socialist Corporate party. I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raithe Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) Quote for the Day: "It looks like we are watching many of the police collectively having the experience of being pulled over for a crime they didn't personally commit because they "fit the description" and are actively resisting while being yelled at repeatedly to "stop resisting!". And they really don't like it." Edited June 9, 2020 by Raithe "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skarpen Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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