Politics XXXV (Life in the Vault is about to change)

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Yeah, they are not all lies and alt right bias, sometimes they do get the weather forecast and sports results correct

" sometimes they do get the weather forecast and sports results correct " ...., good one 

Gorthfuscious your cynicism towards our modern societies is interminable and knows no boundaries 

But on a serious note if you dont believe any established media in any Democracy where do you get any  news from that allows you to understand current events and developments?

[Gorth]

12 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

But on a serious note if you dont believe any established media in any Democracy where do you get any  news from that allows you to understand current events and developments?

A mix of life experience, news from different countries and my two main sources these days on the internet are BBC and Al Jazeera. I know both are biased, each in their own way, but taking that into consideration, I do think the BBC for example covers Australian politics in a better way than Aussie media does, as they have less vested interest in being biased (if that makes any senses?). I know, locally, the Murdoch press owned media is as dirty as their flagship Fox News and the ABC here are their opposite corner of the ring counterpart. AJ often gives some interesting perspectives on how the world is viewed from angles that most bogans have no clue even existed.

 

[BruceVC]

16 minutes ago, Gorth said:

A mix of life experience, news from different countries and my two main sources these days on the internet are BBC and Al Jazeera. I know both are biased, each in their own way, but taking that into consideration, I do think the BBC for example covers Australian politics in a better way than Aussie media does, as they have less vested interest in being biased (if that makes any senses?). I know, locally, the Murdoch press owned media is as dirty as their flagship Fox News and the ABC here are their opposite corner of the ring counterpart. AJ often gives some interesting perspectives on how the world is viewed from angles that most bogans have no clue even existed.

 

Great  response, I was hoping you weren't going to be one those people who dismisses all established media but then relies on " Farmer Joes truthful UFO website " for actual information 

I also watch Al Jazeera and I can say with absolute certainty they do the best job at covering more international news and events in countries outside of the important mainstream 1st world countries than any other news channel. This has become even more evident during the virus where they often show how life is under the pandemic throughout the world that other channels simply dont report on ....so its a  good balanced channel for a variety of news. They have there bias or focus on certain global developments but no more than other channels 

So I watch Bloomberg for global financial updates which is more work related and personal investment information  and CNN, SKY, BBC and Al Jazeera for updates around global events. CNN and Al Jazeera I watch the most 

[Guard Dog]

15 hours ago, algroth said:

This. This false equivalence argument needs to stop.

Forget what they say. Forget the campaign message. Forget even your own political preference. Objectively focus on outcomes. That is all that matters. The equivalency is anything but false. Dogsh-t in a paper bag and dogsh-t shiny gift bag is still a bag of sh-t when you get right down to it. 

[Guard Dog]

It's looking more and more like Kim Jong Un has done the whole world a solid and died. 

[ComradeYellow]

9 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I find this argument incredibly difficult to understand from an intelligent person like yourself who has access to vast amounts of information that is unrestricted 

You seem to be suggesting that you trust the Chinese government over the USA government and the free media in the USA, yet the USA  government doesnt  control  the news story unless it  impacts on state security and laws which is normal in every country. For example no media in the  world can openly report on lets say diplomatic cables marked as " confidential " or openly post secretive military strategies in times of war 

Countries like China 

• Are not Democracies, no one votes so there is no government accountability unless the CCP authorizes it. A Chinese citizen cannot sue the CCP for example 
• China controls its media and restricts the flow of information. Its always has and always will as they consider this necessary for the greater good of there society
• China does not have a transparent legal system. Chinese dissidents, who are rare, can easily vanish and the families have no legal recourse to find them

The example of WMD in Iraq constantly gets brought up as an example of "how the USA lied ", yes I acknowledge we were not told correct information but Saddam Hussein did use WMD in the past and Iraq did indeed use to have them so the initial suggestion wasn't completely ludicrous. Saddam used chemical weapons against both the Kurds and Iran

https://www.thoughtco.com/top-crimes-of-saddam-hussein-1779933

https://sites.tufts.edu/wpf/use-of-chemical-weapons-against-iran/

Interestingly enough the worst misinformation we were told about the 2003 invasion  wasnt the WMD for the reasons I mentioned but rather that Saddam Hussein was part of Al-Qaeda, this was complete nonsense as he was a dictator and had no links to Islam extremism and would have been targeted by them in the same way that  Saudi Arabia and later on all ME countries were because no ME country actually supports the twisted ideological interpretation of Islam that Islamic extremists support 

But going back to China, my question is why would you believe what they say about the  true nature of the virus over your own country which has a free and independent media ....even if we accept the USA government has lied in the past this is not the same as the state controlled media of China. Surly you can recognize this, its a huge distinction and really important difference between the 2 countries ?

 

 

I don't trust any government, and the idea that the U.S. has "Free media" is absolutely absurd!  Turn on any MSM channel and you'll see the same profit-induced voices ruthlessly trying to uphold the planet destroying money-driven capitalist order at the expense of both the ecosystem and the average citizens who are being crushed beneath the weight.

The U.S. is a failed state like it's former rival the U.S.S.R.

China's 1-party government does suck but at least they give the impression that there's a method to the madness, the CCP is a slow roasting evolutionary force that's good at adapting to the times, unlike U.S. politicians.

I love my country but there's a lot of really stupid people here who don't seem aware of what's going on in the world and seem to be happy to be herded into fascism w/o thinking about what's actually going on, or worse, not caring! (Fascism, in a nutshell, is when corporate interests dictate government policy).

[BruceVC]

55 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

I

The U.S. is a failed state like it's former rival the U.S.S.R.

China's 1-party government does suck but at least they give the impression that there's a method to the madness, the CCP is a slow roasting evolutionary force that's good at adapting to the times, unlike U.S. politicians.

I love my country but there's a lot of really stupid people here who don't seem aware of what's going on in the world and seem to be happy to be herded into fascism w/o thinking about what's actually going on, or worse, not caring! (Fascism, in a nutshell, is when corporate interests dictate government policy).

What do you define as a " failed state " , the USA is the worlds strongest economy and influences many countries on culture and other things and is still the worlds most effective world leader in time of crisis or necessary military intervention

I am not suggesting its perfect, no single country  is and ever will be, and Trump has made certain decisions that are egregious and negatively impact making the world better but to say its a failed state seems ....extreme ?

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by BruceVC

[ComradeYellow]

Well here's a small beacon of hope:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/joint-statement-president-donald-j-trump-president-vladimir-putin-russia-commemorating-75th-anniversary-meeting-elbe/

"April 25, 2020, marks the 75th Anniversary of the historic meeting between American and Soviet troops, who shook hands on the damaged bridge over the Elbe River.  This event heralded the decisive defeat of the Nazi regime.

The meeting on the Elbe represented a culmination of tremendous efforts by the many countries and peoples that joined forces under the framework of the United Nations Declaration of 1942.  This common struggle required enormous sacrifice by millions of soldiers, sailors, and citizens in multiple theaters of war.

We also recognize the contributions from millions of men and women on the home front, who forged vast quantities of war materials for use around the world.  Workers and manufacturers played a crucial role in supplying the allied forces with the tools necessary for victory.

The “Spirit of the Elbe” is an example of how our countries can put aside differences, build trust, and cooperate in pursuit of a greater cause.  As we work today to confront the most important challenges of the 21st century, we pay tribute to the valor and courage of all those who fought together to defeat fascism.  Their heroic feat will never be forgotten."

[ComradeYellow]

52 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

What do you define as a " failed state " , the USA is the worlds strongest economy and influences many countries on culture and other things and is still the worlds most effective world leader in time of crisis or necessary military intervention

I am not suggesting its perfect, no single country  is and ever will be, and Trump has made certain decisions that are egregious and negatively impact making the world better but to say its a failed state seems ....extreme ?

 

Sorry to double post but the USSR was the infallable second greatest economy, but it collapsed due to internal contradictions and inability to evolve with the times, as the U.S. shows great evidence of doing the same.

Caitlin Johnstone sums it up pretty humorously:

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2020/04/26/hilarious-kim-jong-un-jokes-and-other-notes-from-the-edge-of-the-narrative-matrix/

[213374U]

3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

It's looking more and more like Kim Jong Un has done the whole world a solid and died. 

It's a great irony that he apparently won't live to see a world that has functionally vindicated the ideology NK runs on.

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, 213374U said:

It's a great irony that he apparently won't live to see a world that has functionally vindicated the ideology NK runs on.

How do you figure that?

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, ComradeMaster said:

Well here's a small beacon of hope:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/joint-statement-president-donald-j-trump-president-vladimir-putin-russia-commemorating-75th-anniversary-meeting-elbe/

"April 25, 2020, marks the 75th Anniversary of the historic meeting between American and Soviet troops, who shook hands on the damaged bridge over the Elbe River.  This event heralded the decisive defeat of the Nazi regime.

The meeting on the Elbe represented a culmination of tremendous efforts by the many countries and peoples that joined forces under the framework of the United Nations Declaration of 1942.  This common struggle required enormous sacrifice by millions of soldiers, sailors, and citizens in multiple theaters of war.

We also recognize the contributions from millions of men and women on the home front, who forged vast quantities of war materials for use around the world.  Workers and manufacturers played a crucial role in supplying the allied forces with the tools necessary for victory.

The “Spirit of the Elbe” is an example of how our countries can put aside differences, build trust, and cooperate in pursuit of a greater cause.  As we work today to confront the most important challenges of the 21st century, we pay tribute to the valor and courage of all those who fought together to defeat fascism.  Their heroic feat will never be forgotten."

You make a good point and  recognizing these historical ties between the USA and Russia are important because they remind us of a time where the unequivocal enemy was the diabolical Nazi regime and there was an alliance between the West and the Russians . So lets focus on what we have in common to build bridges where reasonable going forward, it will lead to a better global world overall and that is something Im sure we all want to see  

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, 213374U said:

It's a great irony that he apparently won't live to see a world that has functionally vindicated the ideology NK runs on.

I dont think thats accurate, I consider Trumps bizarre relationship with NK as the most success any USA president has ever seen...we did see some real negotiations and meetings with NK and the infamous " Hermit Kingdom  "  starting to meaningfully interact with the outside world 

Remember this is about the region and what the impact to China,  SK and Japan ( and the outcome to the world ) would be  if NK imploded or  decided on some suicidal missile attack on either SK and Japan. I particularly care about the well being of those countries and if Trump can achieve a semblance of normality we should support that and recognize his effort

No one is vindicating the appalling dictatorship of NK, this is about the greater good and sometimes diplomacy is necessary especially under these unusual circumstances, history and leadership of NK?

What would you suggest is the alternative to negotiations to get NK to disarm ?

 

[213374U]

13 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

How do you figure that?

Do you really need me to spell out the authoritarian drift the West is, and has been for decades, on? To you, of all people?

[Guard Dog]

28 minutes ago, 213374U said:

Do you really need me to spell out the authoritarian drift the West is, and has been for decades, on? To you, of all people?

No it's definitely happening. That does not mean the concept has been vindicated in any way. That was the word I was focusing on. 

[melkathi]

Is this discussion only about the US or is the situation in Brazil with Bolsonaro also of interest?

[213374U]

38 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

No it's definitely happening. That does not mean the concept has been vindicated in any way. That was the word I was focusing on. 

Well, that does not happen in a vacuum. Individuals need to be monitored and strictly regulated by the state because they cannot be trusted to make responsible decisions -- or because it is believed that the possibility of making the wrong decisions that comes as a cost of freedom outweighs the benefits of freedom itself. That idea is a central tenet of authoritarian one-party ideologies regardless of where on the left-right spectrum you place them.

People are largely ok with living in authoritarian police states, so long as respected authority figures can convince them that it's for a nebulous notion of  "the greater good".

Wow, we really are through the looking glass if I'm the one lecturing you on freeduhm.

 

17 minutes ago, melkathi said:

Is this discussion only about the US or is the situation in Brazil with Bolsonaro also of interest?

I'd say it's relevant to anywhere where you have leaders talking down to the citizenry as if they were children and promising simple solutions to problems so complex that experts are wary of making definitive statements.

People abhor uncertainty and that's one of the reasons why religion has always had so much pull.

Edited April 26, 2020 by 213374U

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

38 minutes ago, melkathi said:

Is this discussion only about the US or is the situation in Brazil with Bolsonaro also of interest?

The thread in general or the discussion of increasing authoritarianism specifically? I'd say the answer to both is yes. Last I talked to folks living in Brazil they were scared of some reaches he was making (more so than average because a few of them are Indigenous) and with the state of exception brought on by Covid-19 I assume it's going to get worse.

[melkathi]

6 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

The thread in general or the discussion of increasing authoritarianism specifically? I'd say the answer to both is yes. Last I talked to folks living in Brazil they were scared of some reaches he was making (more so than average because a few of them are Indigenous) and with the state of exception brought on by Covid-19 I assume it's going to get worse.

 

Check what is going on now.

Last week he fired his health minister for contradicting him and for trying to push for measures to handle covid-19.

Friday he fired the chief of police, which resulted in the minister of justice resigning and making public information about Bolsonaro's corruption.

Now Bolsonaro's coalition partners are calling for impeachment, and apparently the military is moving to depose him.

[BruceVC]

15 minutes ago, melkathi said:

 

Check what is going on now.

Last week he fired his health minister for contradicting him and for trying to push for measures to handle covid-19.

Friday he fired the chief of police, which resulted in the minister of justice resigning and making public information about Bolsonaro's corruption.

Now Bolsonaro's coalition partners are calling for impeachment, and apparently the military is moving to depose him.

Hi Melk 

Bolsonaro overplayed his hand in a most terrible gamble, his virus denialist stance has cost him any political capital or mainstream support he use to have. He will be a lame duck president until he loses the next election  if he isnt impeached as you mentioned

I also want to add what an appalling president he has become and his arrogance will cost Brazilian lives 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by BruceVC

[Guard Dog]

So, Tara Reade, a staffer for Biden in the 90's accused him of sexual assault.... in the 90's. Despite witnesses nothing came of it because that kind of thing was just covered up back then. Today her name has come back up and no one believes her. No one even wants to hear from her. 

Christine Ford accused Kavanaugh in 2018 for something that happened in the '70's with no witnesses and everyone automatically believes her.

I have no opinion on the veracity of either claim. Frankly, IDGAF either way. If both accusations are true or false I could not hold either man in lower regard.  

But no matter how hard you are sucking on the male member of your preferred political party you have to at least acknowledge it's a pretty big double standard. 

 

[majestic]

17 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I also want to add what an appalling president he has become and his arrogance will cost Brazilian lives

Become? Bolsonaro never was anything but a stain on the human race.  He's in good company, they seem to be very abundant these days.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

Become? Bolsonaro never was anything but a stain on the human race.  He's in good company, they seem to be very abundant these days.

Yes but he won the last election convincingly. So our personal view of him isnt really that relevant if the actual citizens of his country voted for him and liked him.....until his virus denialist stance. Here is a good read around why Brazilians voted for him

https://fee.org/articles/why-bolsonaro-won-brazils-presidency-in-a-landslide/

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by BruceVC

[Raithe]

NyTimes - He found one of Stalin's mass graves, now he's on trial for pedophilia

 

[ShadySands]

9 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

snip

I'm surprised how little coverage I've seen of this outside of more conservative news sites