Baldur's Gate 3 - the 2nd thread

[Wormerine]

3 hours ago, kanisatha said:

So effectively it is simultaneous TB combat.

That's an interesting change. The benefit of this system is that one thinks as a team, rather then individual units. I wonder if the system will effectively support this kind of design. 

As all players take turn at the same time, it should accelerate game quite a bit. Not only that players can discuss options an execute them in the same "turn" rather then awkwardly waiting for their own que. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Wormerine

[kanisatha]

3 hours ago, Wormerine said:

That's an interesting change. The benefit of this system is that one thinks as a team, rather then individual units. I wonder if the system will effectively support this kind of design. 

As all players take turn at the same time, it should accelerate game quite a bit. Not only that players can discuss options an execute them in the same "turn" rather then awkwardly waiting for their own que. 

Yes exactly. And the main benefit is supposedly exactly for multiplayer. But for me as a strictly single player, it still works out so much better than traditional TB.

As I've said in other contexts on various forums, this is exactly how my PnP group used to play D&D back in the day.

[IndiraLightfoot]

2 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Yes exactly. And the main benefit is supposedly exactly for multiplayer. But for me as a strictly single player, it still works out so much better than traditional TB.

As I've said in other contexts on various forums, this is exactly how my PnP group used to play D&D back in the day.

This is good news in my book. Having started my journey in Fell Seal Arbiter's Mark, I fell that I miss that turn-based RPG simultaneity, which we also used when we played D&D way back when. 

[kanisatha]

Yeah, and there's plenty of other precedents for it. It's not something new in videogames. Strategy games (i.e Civilization and many wargames) that are TB typically operate exactly this way.

[JerekKruger]

38 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Yeah, and there's plenty of other precedents for it. It's not something new in videogames. Strategy games (i.e Civilization and many wargames) that are TB typically operate exactly this way.

Yep, my first thought was games like XCOM and indeed these games emphasise (what video games call) strategy, so if you're looking for the same in a turn based RPG it makes sense to go that direction.

[Wormerine]

Won't it, though, heavily devalue whatever skill is responsible for "Initiation"? Sure, alpha strike is nice, but after that it becomes irrelevant. They will have to boost it's usefulness in another way.

[Fluffle]

*I decided to post a link to an article that pointed out the problems with the dialogue system in Baldur's Gate 3. - What would the Obsidian forum members think about it?*

https://screenrant.com/baldur-gate-3-dialogue-past-tense-breaks-immersion/

Edited March 5, 2020 by Fluffle

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

17 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

Won't it, though, heavily devalue whatever skill is responsible for "Initiation"? Sure, alpha strike is nice, but after that it becomes irrelevant. They will have to boost it's usefulness in another way.

Assuming 5e is similar to other instances of D&D, initiate will be a roll based on the Dexterity attribute. I assume Dex is still good for AC and ranged attacks so I don't think that's going to be a problem.

[Wormerine]

1 hour ago, Fluffle said:

*I decided to post a link to an article that pointed out the problems with the dialogue system in Baldur's Gate 3. - What would the Obsidian forum members think about it?*

https://screenrant.com/baldur-gate-3-dialogue-past-tense-breaks-immersion/

Quote

"But plenty of RPGs have successfully told great stories with only out-loud dialogue selection."

Yeah, but BG3 won't be telling a great story. What IE games did, and what Larian is doing are completely different things. The more you define the character, the less space you give to the player:

• Have full close up, animation, voiceacting - and all is left for the players is to occasionally decide what decision the character will do.
• Have a written, silent protagonist, with closeup - and players can somewhat decide what the intention of their character might be when they pick a given line.
• What Larian is doing is a pretty much blank slate, giving players tools and allowing them to play in any way they want. I do find it odd, that they invested in close-ups for BG3, while still keeping a vaguenes of D:OS2

Is it not in spirit of DnD? Do you get a pre-written lines to choose from when you play Table-Top DnD? BG3 gives you options, but what is said, and how it is said is to be defined by you, the player. 

As to how it is written - Past tense etc. I do agree. Tis odd. I didn't pay to it much attention. What they did in D:OS2 was much more intuitive.

[ShadySands]

I don't like the past tense part but otherwise I'm open to it

[Fluffle]

21 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

What IE games did, and what Larian is doing are completely different things.

Yeah, I am starting to see that. I am just not used to this, that's all. Since I have never played a game by Larian.

But I see what you are saying. I will have the freedom to fill in the concrete, specific words of my character and even his voice by myself.
Maybe that's a thought I can even learn to appreciate.

I will try to stay open minded. But in the end I may not be able to get into it, and that would be okay, too. Different tastes for different folks. I imagine it would be easier for me in a 2D game rather than a 3D game with close-up conversations.
 

[Wormerine]

I found it worthy of investigation, so created account on Larian's forum and made a thread about it. I received an interesting response from one of the users:

RPS asked about it, and according to them it seemed to be a reason for it:

"Matthew did actually ask about it (Swen said he was the only person to ask). If memory serves Swen said something about it being almost like the character is telling a story to someone, but don’t nail me to the wall because I don’t have the interview audio right now."

"Yeah, Swen seemed to suggest it might have a mysterious relevance – he ducked the question and smiled enigmatically. I wondered if it might be the mind tadpole inside your head trying to ‘write your story’ or something."

source: comments section on
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2020/02/27/baldurs-gate-3-is-nearly-here/#comments

[HoonDing]

Put your tadpole inside the githyanki.

[ComradeYellow]

On 3/4/2020 at 5:22 AM, Wormerine said:

Such as? Honest question. What has happened is that we didn’t get another RPG, since then, beside crowdfunded projects and recently Outer Words, which was uninspiringly fine. . 

Bethesda went on to undermine whatever good was in their games with F4&76 (not that I ever cared for their games). I don’t know what Bioware has been doing. There was Witcher3 which was great but barely an RPG - what’s more RPG mechanics were what was dragging the game down. 

Without doubt, Divinities were the most exciting and innovative thing to happen to RPG, succesfully making a Coop oriented RPG.

Probably the perfect game would be a cross between The Witcher 3 and The Outer Worlds.  The Witcher 3 leveling and scope combined with the atmosphere and plot elements of TOW.  Also what TOW suffers from is lack of meaningful endings, there's clearly a "right option" in every scenario (get rid of Reed Tobson and replace him with Adelaide McDevitt etc etc etc), this "perfect game" would have to vastly diversify the options.

[Hawke64]

If it was possible to skip combat animations, to have the pause/speed up function for real-time gameplay (running around the map or interacting with neutral moving NPCs)*, non-playable companions and traditional dialogues (without past tense), I may consider purchasing BG3. But all of it goes against Larian's focus on multiplayer, so it is very unlikely to happen.

*Somehow Shadowrun and BattleTech had actually fun TB combat, BT even had verticality implemented well (or at least I liked it), while D:OS had it implemented poorly - I had to target specific part of an enemy for a ranged attack to hit and it was extremely annoying.

[Wormerine]

23 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Probably the perfect game would be a cross between The Witcher 3 and The Outer Worlds.  The Witcher 3 leveling and scope combined with the atmosphere and plot elements of TOW. 

Thanks! I suspected you meant a Witcher3. Another honest question: what did you like about leveling system? I thought I did more harm, then good. I thought it add little to no customization, and lead to major gameplay issues - like being over-leveled for all content past initial area. 

OW was fine, though ages behind New Vegas and Troika games system and design wise. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Wormerine

[ComradeYellow]

But then again I'm reminded of Elex and that didn't turn out so hot....

Witcher 3 carries the RGB leveling system, which is perfect for the modern age, provided it's done right.  Colors have spiritual meanings that define you.  Say you want to invest in nothing but Green skills.

https://www.bourncreative.com/meaning-of-the-color-green/

Or perhaps an equal mix of Green and Red skills (Yellow):

https://www.bourncreative.com/meaning-of-the-color-yellow/

Edited March 5, 2020 by ComradeMaster

[IndiraLightfoot]

Excerpt from the Community Update #2 just now:

What you will eventually play has been in the planning at Larian and closely with Wizards of the Coast for over 4 years now, with their key creative people colliding with our key creative people in ways that we will eventually talk about in greater length. Our task is to create the ultimate Dungeons & Dragons game; a loving and modern sequel to Baldur’s Gate 2. Oozing with 5e D&D greatness, set in the world that you know and love. You will explore Baldur’s Gate 100 years after Baldur’s Gate 2. The Bhaalspawn saga has ended, and a new threat is converging on the city of Baldur's Gate. But the gods do not forget, and the shadows and scars of the past will not stay silent. You will meet and get to know many new characters, and encounter some of the legendary characters you know and love. 

Most importantly, you’ll learn how their stories have evolved. And as you play, you will heavily influence their fate.

And later:

We’ve built an engine that allows all 250 people at Larian collaborate to become the ultimate DM. Allowing for near-limitless reactivity, responsiveness, and a memory that never forgets who you are, or what you’ve done. No matter who you roll, dice-rolls, modifiers, and physical simulation have all been designed to simulate a D&D experience that feels as though it’s straight from the imagination, where no matter the dice roll the story will continue. It’s also a game that is intended to span the entire range of human emotion. It is in equal parts a dark and a light game. “We always want to make failure as interesting as it possibly can,” said Senior Writer Adam Smith. “We don’t put everything that’s cool and interesting behind success.” 

“Light and dark are really good sources of advantage,” noted Swen in a recent GameSpot interview. The philosophies that define the rules in D&D 5e also define the narrative, where you’ll often make difficult decisions through initiative or through the roll of the dice. The Baldur’s Gate games were dark - sometimes darker than many people remember. Baldur’s Gate 3 is no exception, though in 2020 we’re able to take the gamut of emotion and experience and stretch it further due to systems, simulation, and of course also our cinematics team. Unfortunately we did not make it to the end of our PAX East 2020 live demo due to a feature (see: bug), but those in the hall witnessed a scene where Astarion’s hunger got the better of him, and through a series of dice rolls (and often audience choice), Astarion sank his teeth into Shadowheart to varying degrees of mortality. Astarion was happy (systemically), but Shadowheart often ended up dead (also without irony, systemically). 

Baldur’s Gate 3 is on course to be a ‘Mature’ game, which is publishing language for “if you go any further the ratings board is going to be extremely annoying”. We want to push the limits of every theme within the game, which should allow you to play exactly how you’d like to play. Astarion may be a Vampire Spawn, but that doesn’t mean he has to be evil - if hungry. Though you saw one path at PAX East, there were many possibilities for good, and evil -- note also, everything in between. It has always been Larian’s plan to create games that allow you to play however you wish. This larger team, and this new engine, allow us to push this further than ever before. Much further than Divinity: Original Sin 2. 

As you delve into an epic adventure that subverts the binary morality found in many RPGs, and explore Baldur’s Gate with new and existing characters, 100 years after the story of the first two games, dice roll by dice roll, we hope that together we can reignite that great sense of discovery you felt as you dived for the first time into Baldur’s Gate 1 & 2, bringing the experience of an open-ended D&D game to photo-realistic realisation, albeit with 5e rules in place of 2nd edition rules. Things have come a long way in 20 years, but what’s important to us is that you’re along for the ride. 

You have many questions, and we have answers. We’ll be hosting a Reddit AMA where you can ask Swen (Creative Director), David (Producer), Adam (Senior Writer), Nick (Lead Systems Designer), and Jiji (Writing Director) your questions. 11:00 PT on March 12, over on Reddit! 

Edited March 6, 2020 by IndiraLightfoot

[Fluffle]

Thanks for sharing Indira!

I'm excited and laughing/giggling/smiling like a stupid. Yes, despite my concerns, every time I hear some news about BG3 my excitement grows.

I am happy to read about Astarion, because I'm very interested in him.
I hope him killing off party members (for good?) is not entirely based on dice rolls alone.

Looking forward to the Reddit AMA!

Edited March 6, 2020 by Fluffle

[kanisatha]

On 3/5/2020 at 5:57 PM, Hawke64 said:

But all of it goes against Larian's focus on multiplayer

This is key, and the ultimate source of all my discontent. Everything in the game that I don't like ultimately seems to go back to MP. The game seems to me to be designed and built firstly for MP, where all major design decisions have been made with MP in mind first and foremost. Yes one can play the game SP, but MP is how one is *supposed* to play it. And that is a problem for me, maybe even a deal-breaker.

[Wormerine]

33 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

The game seems to me to be designed and built firstly for MP, where all major design decisions have been made with MP in mind first and foremost. Yes one can play the game SP, but MP is how one is *supposed* to play it. And that is a problem for me, maybe even a deal-breaker.

Yup.

[bringingyouthefuture]

On 3/5/2020 at 2:36 PM, ComradeMaster said:

Probably the perfect game would be a cross between The Witcher 3 and The Outer Worlds. 

Yes except the only good thing about the Witcher 3 were the cinematic story elements (and not Geralt putting his tadpole in everyone), the ending and maybe exploration.    And first-person shooters is too much Up,Down,Up,Down,A,B,A,B Left, Right,Select.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say DOS2 did a masterful job of creating, writing and implementing a story that pretty much took the cake that year, so not sure everyone's criticism is really valid in that area.  And I don't just mean the dialogue writing.  I believe for this forum at least Obsidian has the upper hand when putting up walls of text to read which I do love about Obsidian games, they do have superior writers, but if anything Larian proved they can write great storylines and great adventures, fun quests and amazing games.  Also, not a co-op player and if you think DOS2 is only popular because of co-op you are totally wrong, the game is a great single player game.  Plus with Wizards of the Coast onboard I feel like this is gonna be a good one.

And just to be clear I am one of the staunchest defenders of POE2 as a great game too so I am not biased towards Larian or against Obsidian. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by bringingyouthefuture

[ComradeYellow]

Oh great another RPG elitist.

Funny how Tim Cain did Fallout 1 AND The Outer Worlds but there's still a significant sector of the gaming community who are agents of concepts rather than gravitating from concepts, as Tim Cain has done.

What the Hell.

[Wormerine]

4 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Funny how Tim Cain did Fallout 1 AND The Outer Worlds but there's still a significant sector of the gaming community who are agents of concepts rather than gravitating from concepts, as Tim Cain has done.

I just don't think The Outer World was very interesting. I think it has potential, but right now it's shinier and less developed Fallout: New Vegas, and I would see no need to ever return to, if not for the DLC. 

Fallout 1&2 are games to which I return every few years and can have a fresh playthrough and discover new things.

 

5 hours ago, bringingyouthefuture said:

I am going to go out on a limb here and say DOS2 did a masterful job of creating, writing and implementing a story that pretty much took the cake that year, so not sure everyone's criticism is really valid in that area.  And I don't just mean the dialogue writing.

Really? I clocked in 45 hours and can't recall a single interesting character or story bit. Lack of any coherent story development was what made my leave it. There a mildly funny bit every once in a while, but that's about it. 

[Wormerine]

[shrug] Gimme OW2, add depth to character development, and add systemic depth and interactivity Tim Cain has been so good at, and we have a great little RPG series.