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There is a lot of GoT theories in the internet, but if check carefully you actually find some pretty good ones, like some about the Night King for example. If GRRM said that we don't need stories of pure good vs pure evil and implied that the hero doesn't need to be a conventional one, I'm confident we'll get a satisfying end in the books. However I'm afraid the producer's of the show won't worry too much about that.

 

But who knows. We did get a shot of the island of faces or whatever it is called in this episode's opening...

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Reconstruction: America After the Civil War

while some folks is uninterested in the sins of their forefathers, am finding tv is rare as compelling as when it does history well.  the civil war has garnered a great deal o' attention from tv writers and directors over the years, and with good reason.  the civil war were bloody, transformative and arguable complete unnecessary.  am always willing to watch well-made civil war tv.  the thing is, the reconstruction period gets far less attention from tv and movie makers than the civil war itself.  sure, we get incidental and tangential exploration o' the reconstruction whenever the transcontinental railroad is subject matter, but the reconstruction itself is all-too often handled in a perfunctory manner.

the linked is free stream o' a recent pbs documentary 'bout reconstruction.  hurl and gd might already have seen, but for others, we highly recommend giving the series a looksee.

HA! Good Fun!

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"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Im watching Narcos: Mexico, its very good and particularly interesting considering all the attention on the USA\Mexican border and the drug trade highlighted by the Trump administration 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

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Making them fight in the dark did add to the tension. But I'm a little underwhelmed at the story choices. As TN said, no spoilers, but how do build up a confrontation between a protagonist and an antagonist over eight years, including some memorable stare down scenes, and then not pay it off one way or the other?  That is kind of a big middle finger isn't it? 

Spoiler

They made so much of the "prince or princess" who brings the dawn and the only characters who COULD fill that role were irrelevant. It's just bad writing. Now the Arya bit did not come completely out of left field. They did lay some groundwork for it. But for all the impressive spectacle of it, I was left feeling disappointed. This is why the books are better... the writing is better. 

 

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"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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As I've said before, I haven't yet watched any of the new season but my expectations have been low ever since the show passed the books. I've never even read the books but there was a noticeable dip in quality in the story that I can't seem to pin on anything else. The TV writers just aren't nearly as good without leaning heavily on the books as a guide and seem to fall back on a lot of standard fantasy tropes.

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1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

As I've said before, I haven't yet watched any of the new season but my expectations have been low ever since the show passed the books. I've never even read the books but there was a noticeable dip in quality in the story that I can't seem to pin on anything else. The TV writers just aren't nearly as good without leaning heavily on the books as a guide and seem to fall back on a lot of standard fantasy tropes.

Same here,  I saw a few of the cracks here and there but it didn't really bother me until season 7. It felt so much like night and day to me, it felt like I was watching a completely different show at times.

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9 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Making them fight in the dark did add to the tension. But I'm a little underwhelmed at the story choices. As TN said, no spoilers, but how do build up a confrontation between a protagonist and an antagonist over eight years, including some memorable stare down scenes, and then not pay it off one way or the other?  That is kind of a big middle finger isn't it? 

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They made so much of the "prince or princess" who brings the dawn and the only characters who COULD fill that role were irrelevant. It's just bad writing. Now the Arya bit did not come completely out of left field. They did lay some groundwork for it. But for all the impressive spectacle of it, I was left feeling disappointed. This is why the books are better... the writing is better. 

 

 

You're right, it's an extremely odd choice to not use one of the two designated Prince(ss) That Was Promised. That's going back to subverting our expectations in a bad way. On the other hand, the show never made much use of the prophecy outside of a few pieces of dialogue with Melisandre, Stannis and Jon.

 

I found the death toll to be pretty mild. I mean, assuming Sam, Brienne, Grey Worm and Jaime survived their ordeals, but honestly giving them off-screen deaths would be even lamer than Arya killing the Night King. Lyanna dying was also a pretty weird choice. I mean, why? Sure she died a bad ass killing a revived giant but other than that it absolutely no purpose. Jorah and Theon died in a way that brought their character arcs full circle and to a satisfying conclusion, giving their lives to save someone they loved and betrayed. Berric dying to protect Arya makes sense given the story choices.

I also spent the first 45 minutes raging at the screen. I'm far from a tactical genius and otherwise pretty bad in strategy games but even I know that's not the way to deal with defending a castle.

 

I facepalmed when the Dothraki charged. Facepalmed harder after the began a small time bombardement of the enemy charge only to break it off after a single volley to avoid friendly fire. What a battle plan. Geez.

Edited by majestic
Added complaints about the tactical genius of the battle plan.
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I trace the problems with the show back to them deciding to do 'proper' battles. There's a reason the battles are obfuscated in the books, and it's a good reason. Whispering Woods wasn't actually shown and the show was a whole lot better for it, if it were done now we'd have an entire episode dedicated to it- and probably a whole ep of over written maudlin set up- and that would be 20% of the season gone. Apart from the Blackwater I haven't liked a single large scale battle except as a spectacle and even then if you've seen one confused shaky cam culminating in Lead Character(s) being saved by plotforce multiple times you've seen them all.

There was not a single surprising death- not surprising in itself, post Red Wedding every story choice has been pretty safe- and all of those who died had no purpose going forward in the story. Lyanna dying was emotionally manipulative more than anything. The writers also must have watched the ludicrous charge from Return of the King- ordered by literally a suicidal madman, under the influence of his enemy- and thought 'mmm, yes'. That sort of battle fundamentally doesn't suit Dothraki, but something more like the Charge of the Rohirrim would have made a lot more tactical sense.

I actually suspect we got the book ending in the episode, as it uses several guns on mantlepieces from the book:

Have the Night King hit by dragonfire and have Jon go chop his head off with his Valyrian Steel sword while he's hit by it. Would be more than enough to 'prove' his lineage, uses the Targaryen immunity to fire and mirrors the scene that established Dany end of book/ s1. It would also make both Aegon and Dany the Prince(ss) who was Promised which is the sort of prophecy subversion I like.

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I was very disappointed by the GoT episode too.

 

Several stupid decisions and things that make no sense. Why only put dragonglass on the higher parts of the wall? Dothraki riding to death for no reason. Arya was afraid of the undead? She should have been able to kill a few more in silence and handle the others. Or at least she shouldn't be too scared. How did Podrick survive being pressed into a wall?

 

I don't know what was the agreeement for the tv show, but having the Night King as a pure evil guy is boring. I only read the first book and now I'm very interested in reading the others, because no matter what happens there, it will be much more interesting than what is done on tv.

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Spoiler

I really expected much more from Night King, his whole wraith crew did nothing whole time, we don't know what was is purpose, back story or mission at all. really dissapointed

 GoT spoiler

 

And don't get me started on wasting manpower on that whole siege tactics. I mean they really needed Blackfish there to tell them how things works

Edited by Chilloutman

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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So the Lich King died to a rogue ? Pft.

 

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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On 4/25/2019 at 2:00 AM, Gromnir said:

Reconstruction: America After the Civil War

while some folks is uninterested in the sins of their forefathers, am finding tv is rare as compelling as when it does history well.  the civil war has garnered a great deal o' attention from tv writers and directors over the years, and with good reason.  the civil war were bloody, transformative and arguable complete unnecessary.  am always willing to watch well-made civil war tv.  the thing is, the reconstruction period gets far less attention from tv and movie makers than the civil war itself.  sure, we get incidental and tangential exploration o' the reconstruction whenever the transcontinental railroad is subject matter, but the reconstruction itself is all-too often handled in a perfunctory manner.

the linked is free stream o' a recent pbs documentary 'bout reconstruction.  hurl and gd might already have seen, but for others, we highly recommend giving the series a looksee.

HA! Good Fun!

I haven't seen it yet. It's on my DVR & my "to do list". I am familiar with two of the books Gates & McGee drew from in making it. "West from Appomattox: The Reconstruction of America after the Civil War" by Heather Richardson and "Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution" by Eric Foner. The former is a pretty recent publication so it definitely takes a different political slant than Foner's much older book. Richardson also focuses more on westward migration from the South following the war. IMO Foner's book is probably THE source on Reconstruction. 

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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Watched Ep 3 again tonight. It does not get better the second time around. In fact i found more things about it that irritated me. This is why I spend more time with my Kindle than my TV. 

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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So I guess 

Spoiler

The undead king with ice magic was a side act and the real big bad is an alcoholic widow? I guess she's going to end up dying of alcohol poisoning in the penultimate episode and the final episode is Jon debating the ethics of ****ing his aunt while the other characters settle in the new regime and have sex to fill the nood quota for HBO.

Anyways I got confused what the **** was going on halfway through because it was just hopeless shots of our heroes between the Night King looking menacing and zombies killing trash mobs.  Arya being the one to kill him didn't bother me as much as how easy it was, like this dude just decimated almost all of your forces despite your supa-smart tactics and holy fire magic but he gets fooled by a slight of hand?

 

Edited by KaineParker
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While I agree with complaints against the latest episode and criticism against the show in general after they moved past the books,  I do think Game of Thrones is still good TV. Watching this latest season has been positively refreshing experience after suffering through second season of Star Trek Discovery.  Though, I do have to say: Why would you ever put catapults(or whatever those things are) in front of your foot soldiers?

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8 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

I actually suspect we got the book ending in the episode, as it uses several guns on mantlepieces from the book:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Have the Night King hit by dragonfire and have Jon go chop his head off with his Valyrian Steel sword while he's hit by it. Would be more than enough to 'prove' his lineage, uses the Targaryen immunity to fire and mirrors the scene that established Dany end of book/ s1. It would also make both Aegon and Dany the Prince(ss) who was Promised which is the sort of prophecy subversion I like.

 

Targaryens aren't immune to fire in the books. Dany's pyre was a one time thing according to GRRM. Also, the Night King isn't in the books. There is another character by the same name, but he's a dead Lord Commander. This episode was pretty much 100% original content I think.

Edited by Maedhros
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If Dany can survive fire under exceptional circumstances I couldn't see any reason why Jon could not also. Logically of course neither should but thematically it would fit as the same sort of rebirth Dany had.

My presumption has always been that there is a White Walker leader of some sort in the books as well, though I'd certainly admit it's a presumption and I'd expect a slightly less tropey result to killing him than what we got in the show. End of the day though you do need to haves some way to reverse the invasion in the books as well, and the origin of the White Walkers in general as shown in the show is, imo, likely to be direct from Martin since a lot of the other stuff in the CotF plotline obviously comes from him (eg the origin of 'Hodor' seems extremely likely to be from George)

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Here's my final thoughts on this episode: If there isn't more, they built up a villain to be Thanos but then he turned out to be Snoke. If this doesn't have a different payoff later, this show literally sucks retroactively. Because this was the greater myth arc. It was about how the Iron Throne doesn't matter. We can't go back to giving a hoot about a pointy chair.

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29 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

 

My presumption has always been that there is a White Walker leader of some sort in the books as well, 

According to Martin there isn't. He stated as much in an interview.

So what we saw last night I think will differ extremely much from the books. If there ever will be any more books that is.

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I'll do it, for a turnip.

 

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2 hours ago, TrueNeutral said:

Here's my final thoughts on this episode: If there isn't more, they built up a villain to be Thanos but then he turned out to be Snoke. If this doesn't have a different payoff later, this show literally sucks retroactively. Because this was the greater myth arc. It was about how the Iron Throne doesn't matter. We can't go back to giving a hoot about a pointy chair.

Well put

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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2 hours ago, Mannock said:

According to Martin there isn't. He stated as much in an interview.

So what we saw last night I think will differ extremely much from the books. If there ever will be any more books that is.

I get a chuckle from the mental image of GRRM staring at a blank screen with the heading "Winds of Winter Chapter One" for eight years saying "Oh my God, oh my God" over and over again... 8 year writers block! 

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"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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You know what would have made this better? If they (the good guys) lost the battle and a handful of survivors were forced into a retreat down the neck with the dead in pursuit. As a last act before retreating Jon & Rhegal burn Winterfell and as many of the corpses as possible. It makes tactical sense to do that but also symbolic. By burning his past he closes the arc of Jon Snow and becomes Aegon Targaryen, sixth of his name. He leads the survivors down to the Trident and rally the remaining people of the south to the Ruby Ford and makes the "last stand" there. They win the battle where his father lost and the story and plot failing action proceeds from there.  

That would have made the iron throne irrelevant and the Night King a much bigger threat and paid off every loose end in the whole story. 

Oh well.

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"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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