Political Point and Counterpoint

[Gromnir]

Would be nice if Republicans like him would actually give their own proposals and counteroffers. The fact that the Republicans don't offer their own ideas is the reason why the New Green Deal is a thing. Can't have a true discussion of ideas if the other side doesn't have any ideas of their own and keeps rejecting all of the other sides.

three observations:

 

1) debt

 

reduce debt has been a republican mantra for decades, but recent budgets is actual increasing debt.  any kinda 2019 new deal proposal is gonna be expensive... monumental expensive.  am not sure how you get republicans as a whole to support anything like New Deal legislation.

 

2) impotence

 

when republicans had both houses, they failed at everything significant save a cobbled together tax cut, which ain't producing anywhere near trump's promised 5% growth. repeal and replace were a foregone conclusion when republicans got control o' Congress, but with partisan politics at their worst in many decades, and a wh capable only o' further dividing, what were initial a inevitability became doomed. republican Congressional failures is in part what led to democrats getting back the house. so now, with only the senate, the republicans is unlikely to propose significant legislation unless such is bipartisan.

 

3) polarization

 

significant legislation has been bipartisan in nature more often than not.  such is not possible in 2019. republicans and democrats have shifted away from the center, and republicans is adopting a bunker mentality in anticipation o' 2020... or perhaps channeling lt. gorman.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrQHPZrnbPk

 

am suspecting republicans try something major before 2020, if only outta desperation.  at some point is gonna be clear simple supporting trump won't get 'em reelected. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 27, 2019 by Gromnir

[Gfted1]

Sure is weird that 42 Democrats voted "present". Why do they want to see the US fail?

[ShadySands]

 

 

 

maybe their stance is that its fine like its now so there is no need for change? Just speculating

 

 

Their stance is that corporate money fits really snugly in their pocket.

 

 

like on other side of spectrum is it any different

 

 

Tell me about that immense amount of lobbying money that goes towards pushing climate change action.

 

Simply not an issue they care much about in general. That's slowly changing among Republican voters but how long that will take to "trickle up" I couldn't hazard a guess especially considering the factors that Gromnir already listed. It's not going to be cheap or easy and it will require both sides to work together.

 

That our current leadership thinks it just knows better than the experts isn't helpful either

[Malcador]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/pm-may-says-she-will-quit-if-her-brexit-deal-is-passed-lawmaker-idUSKCN1R80RM

 

Good tactic, trade her for Brexit deal

[Gfted1]

How does forcing her out make Brexit suddenly gel?

[smjjames]

Bah, you beat me to it (by like 20 minutes anyway), but here's the links for the two liveblogs with reactions from MPs.

 

Theresa May says that she'll step down before the next phase of the Brexit proccess. During the summer, possibly earlier.

The Guardian liveblog link.

Reactions to that are past the linked posts on both liveblogs.

 

 

 

How does forcing her out make Brexit suddenly gel?

 

Politics....

Edited March 27, 2019 by smjjames

[Gfted1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=1j_Djv4Q74Q

 

Hmm, its almost as if their mouths write checks that their asses are unwilling to cash.

[Zoraptor]

How does forcing her out make Brexit suddenly gel?

 

It's entirely possible it doesn't.

 

She's personally disliked by many  because she's in the position where she's trying to browbeat people into voting for a deal that doesn't really appeal to them at all, and since she's politically dead in the medium term anyway offering to resign becomes another negotiation option. It's also part of showing the hard core brexiters who want a no deal exit that she isn't personally going to benefit from them holding their noses to vote for her deal.

[Volourn]

If someone proposes to me that I get a ponytail the only answer they're getting from me is a 'no' not some alternative. Some ideas are so stupid that a simple no suffice.

 

Like if I asked a 10/10 celeb babe for sex, and she tells me no. I should not expect her to come back with 'I'll let you get to second base'. Her 'no' should suffice. LMAO

[smjjames]

@Gifted1: It was a troll attempt by the GOP since they're basing their criticism off of a draft that wasn't even close to ready for the light of day.

[pmp10]

 

 

 

maybe their stance is that its fine like its now so there is no need for change? Just speculating

 

 

Their stance is that corporate money fits really snugly in their pocket.

 

 

like on other side of spectrum is it any different

 

 

Tell me about that immense amount of lobbying money that goes towards pushing climate change action.

 

 

 

 

maybe their stance is that its fine like its now so there is no need for change? Just speculating

 

 

Their stance is that corporate money fits really snugly in their pocket.

 

 

like on other side of spectrum is it any different

 

 

Tell me about that immense amount of lobbying money that goes towards pushing climate change action.

 

I think 'Act now on climate' has just dropped about million $ for one democratic candidate.

Anyway that is a pittance compared to what invested industries can do.

[Gfted1]

Wasnt it a vote about starting the debate?

 

 

The Green New Deal, a sweeping Democratic proposal for dealing with climate change, fell at the first hurdle Tuesday as the Senate failed to reach the 60 votes necessary to begin debate on the non-binding resolution

[smjjames]

Well, that too, but it doesn't stop the Republicans from trying to pin it as what Democrats are actually doing.

[Gfted1]

I feel a little wobbly on this subject so let me try to refocus. Is this correct:

 

The dems created the GND

Due to its absurdity the repubs called for an immediate vote to pin individual senators on their votes, going into 2020. It was 57-0.

Why is this a troll move if this is what is required to even start the debate? Only if you don't believe in the plan?

[Malcador]

So no option got a majority in Parliament. Sheesh.

[Gromnir]

well, is kinda a troll move by mitch.  typically this kinda legislation goes to committee where is debated and kinks is worked out before going to floor for a vote. making senate democrats vote on what were little more than aspirational framework were exact the kinda thing mccain woulda' condemned as a dbagy bit o' gamesmanship by fellow republicans.

 

with only 57 votes, further senate nonsense were thwarted by democrats... who is being equal dbagy in the House by rigging the committee at their end o' the building.

 

no winners.  only losers.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hiro Protagonist]

I thought this was pretty funny.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tqzSqXUmEE

[smjjames]

Missed by over 20 minutes, anyway...

 

Every. Single. Indicator. Vote. Got. Voted. Down.. O.o How.... just how does this happen? I'm a mix of O.o and WTF here, lol.

Since they don't want any of them, that kind of leaves the only option to either pull the plug (revoke article 50) or commit economic seppuku (Brexit crash through). Or maybe let the Queen decide if they're so helpless? I mean, Queen Elizabeth has gotta be seriously facepalming here.

[Zoraptor]

If they don't do anything it will be no deal Brexit just before Easter. That ought to start focusing some minds on being a touch more pragmatic. Kind of funny though, MPs hated May saying that the mess was their fault for being unrealistic so they took control of the process and got zero progress and 8 failed proposals rather than 1.

 

Might as well get Queen Liz to decide, she can hardly do worse- actually, go the whole hog and give every member of the royal family a proposal to champion, then decide which wins in a last person standing tournament held on the Isle of Wight. Added bonus, we might get to see Phil the Greek dabbing.

[smjjames]

Who's Phil the Greek? A royal family member?

[ShadySands]

Prince Philip the Queen's cousin/husband

Edited March 27, 2019 by ShadySands

[Agiel]

 

again, reform party had 19% in 92.  meaningless.  libertarians, the party we most identify with, is going at this complete bass ackwards.  start getting more recognition local and state where being a libertarian actual means something. makes more sense than repeated proving kodos right.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Back on this point again, I've been of the opinion that the Libertarian Party could finally get off the ground in the Orange County area, a place in California which if one had told me in 2012 would turn Democrat I would have laughed in his face, unable to contain the spittle spraying onto him. However as the 2016 election has shown with Clinton beating out Trump in that area, in spite of it voting heavily in favour of Romney in 2012, and having turned completely blue in 2018, the only conclusion is that the current Republican party has left the educated, upper-middle class (people who are amenable to low taxes and fiscal probity, and at the best of times can take or leave the conservative commitment to the "Culture War" and at the worst hostile towards it) that has been the lynchpin of their strategy in suburbs behind, something that in spite of vehement claims demographics cannot fully account for (as Orange County's own Republican Party chairman has said "Significant numbers of Republicans we turned out, look to have voted Democrat.")

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Agiel

[smjjames]

And on top of that, the California GOP is on life support. Not dead neccesarily, but not completely impotent either. If any part of the GOP that is likely to show signs of adapting, it would likely be the California GOP, but I haven't heard any signs of that happening.

 

OC may very well be where Bill Weld thinks he could gain some traction, or even California in general.

[Gromnir]

 

 

again, reform party had 19% in 92.  meaningless.  libertarians, the party we most identify with, is going at this complete bass ackwards.  start getting more recognition local and state where being a libertarian actual means something. makes more sense than repeated proving kodos right.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Back on this point again, I've been of the opinion that the Libertarian Party could finally get off the ground in the Orange County area, a place in California which if one had told me in 2012 would turn Democrat I would have laughed in his face, unable to contain the spittle spraying onto him. However as the 2016 election has shown with Clinton beating out Trump in that area, in spite of it voting heavily in favour of Romney in 2012, and having turned completely blue in 2018, the only conclusion is that the current Republican party has left the educated, upper-middle class (people who are amenable to low taxes and fiscal probity, and at the best of times can take or leave the conservative commitment to the "Culture War" and at the worst hostile towards it) that has been the lynchpin of their strategy in suburbs behind, something that in spite of vehement claims demographics cannot fully account for (as Orange County's own Republican Party chairman has said "Significant numbers of Republicans we turned out, look to have voted Democrat.")

 

image

 

is more than a few disillusioned republicans and democrats in CA and other states.  the thing is, overall, CA will vote democrat for president for foreseeable future.  as such, put up a libertarian candidate to get stuffing beat outta him/her is silly given the 0.00% chance o' victory.  wasted money.  furthermore, aleppo moments end up hurting the libertarian cause far more than benefits o' being visible for 15 minutes. as the dominant parties become increasing polarized, they is leaving themselves open, local and even state offices, for a reasonable alternative. should be a good opportunity for libertarians... if only they would get their act together.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

Ballot access and campaign funding. The LP has to fight tooth and nail for ballot access in every state in every election. And they are battling rules the D & R created to ensure no one else gets in their exclusive clubhouse: elected office. That fight costs money. By the time elections roll around whatever money there is to support campaigns is utterly exhausted fighting for ballot access. So campaigns run on donations alone which means you need a face to the party. Which means you need a Presidential ticket because that is the only way the word Libertarian ever gets spoken or printed in the media. So... wasteful as it may be to run a presidential campaign (and God knows it is) it cannot be dispensed with because without it the odds of the down ballot races drop from next to none to totally none. 

 

When you are looking at your ballot no matter what race it is the LP candidate likely has no shot at winning. No matter how vile the other names are. But I've been repeating this over and over trying to drill this point home: the votes cast for that LP candidate will probably not help get him/her elected. But they WILL make things easier for the ones in the next election. Or the one after that if there is enough of them. The D & R have a stranglehold over the politics of this country and it is leading us all to ruin. The only way to break that is NOT VOTE FOR EITHER OF THEM. Yes that will help the one you were voting against. So what? The red bag is just the same as the blue bag when both bags are full of s--t. And they are.

 

Get over this notion of wasting your vote. If you live in a state like CA or TN and vote for a Democrat or a Republican you HAVE wasted your vote. Voting for a 3rd party candidate will not help THAT candidate in all likelihood. But it WILL help the next one, maybe even the ones after that. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Guard Dog