Empower. Do we want it or should it go?

[baldurs_gate_2]

 

Umm... Isn't the most obvious solution to allow players to turn it off, like expert mode. Empower related skills then get a 5% chance to happen?

Randomness is really bad idea.

 

Keep it.

 

It allows choice. I like the ideas of flexibility and strategic choices it brings.i can empower stealth strikes, heals, ccs or dd all based on current battle situations. Or i can replace ability points to try and save the day with extra skills. Its a fun ability. Period.

 

Im speecjless so many ppl want it gone. Like what is wrong with you. You can empower a single or ability or refresh more ability points. I smh when people insist on keeping supplies over empower.

 

I mean jesus. I got into wow lately and that games combat is so watered down and neutered i freaking fear the same will happen to this wonderful series.

You fail to see problems it has.

• Right now you can pop Empower in every fight without any penalty. Encounters are scarce and you can rest after every encounter. Hell, you can split groups / drop combat with invis and Empower multiple times per "intended Encounter".
• Empower affects certain abilities much more than others. Spells that bounce, hit multiple times and/or apply debuff are much more affected by Empower than abilities that do straight damage/buff. Empowering Bounding Missiles is amazing, Empowering physical abilities/buffs/Summons is awful

This leads to 2 problems:

• It's impossible to balance around Empower. Player1 uses Empower as intended and uses it in difficult encounters. Player2 spams Empower in every encounter, so he has much stronger offensive spells or 50% more resources. If you balance PotD around Player1 it will be laughably easy for Player2 and if you balance PotD around Player2 then Player1 will feel awful as he would have to use abuse oversight/exploit to beat the game.
• Once you find optimal use of Empower you will always do that because it's just superior. On healer you'll be always empowering for more casts, on Evoker you'll always go for that multi-hit spell, on Assassin you'll always empower stealth attack. There's very little actual choice.

So, there are multiple solutions to this problem:

• Remove Empower
• Allow empowering subclass instead of spell or character. No more free resources, no more OP spells. Empowering no-subclass Wizard would allow you to cast any spell of your PL or lower, empowering Soul Blade would make you cast Reaping Knives on self, empowering no-subclass Ranger would give your pet massive combat boost for a while, Black Jacket would reload all his guns, Troubador would chant 2 phrases at same time for a while etc.
• Resting doesn't restore Empower points unless you rest in Tavern (doesn't fix the other issue)

 

It's a single player game. You don't have to use empower at all. Why does it bother you, when ppl just play the game, how they want to play it?

[Dorftek]

Because balance. He makes solid arguments for why it's bad.

 

Personally I only use it for resources since I play solo. However I much more prefer the system in the previous game and I am not a big fan of empower. Not a fan of the current resource system either.

[Manveru123]

What does balance have to do with anything? You can literally just not click the god damn button!

[Vorad]

I assume most people must have some experience from good old dnd and later the computer versions with baldurs gate, icewind dale etc etc... the "empower mechanic" as is in PoE2 didn't exist back then and yet we had great fun!
However it's just a new game feature, and especially in a single player environment the player has a choice on how his game session should progress. The gameplay should offer choices in multiple levels, so that different kinds of players can actually have fun while playing it! If someone is unhappy that this mechanic exists they can simply skip using. I know I am skipping it because that's how I enjoy my potd but that's purely personal preference.

It's a single player and not an mmo! Other players using the mechanic does not affect my own game session at the slightest!

PS: All this unnecessary crying and moaning only goes to show the complete intolerance and lack of acceptance, towards an entire group of players that simply wish to play the game differently from the rest, even though their actions in game have no impact on your gaming sessions at all... in the end we all hypocritically adore liberty...

[lorddarkflare]

Empower is only problematic because of the current resting system. Fix that and I think it becomes a much better mechanic.

 

That said, I am not sure why the drive to remove it seems so strong though. I would think people would be apathetic, but some people seem to really hate it.

[Metaturtle]

It's either "Oh, I forgot I had it!","what if I need it at some point?", or "My rest bonuses and PEN food though!" So it becomes a weird conflict for newbies and metagamers who either are timid about using it or have adapted a playstyle that never uses it, which is probably unintuitive to the way Obsidian had in mind for that crowd. However, it does work for the crowd that has embraced its own style of play that it's good for.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Metaturtle

[InsaneCommander]

It's either "Oh, I forgot I had it!","what if I need it at some point?", or "My rest bonuses and PEN food though!" So it becomes a weird conflict for newbies and metagamers who either are timid about using it or have adapted a playstyle that never uses it, which is probably unintuitive to the way Obsidian had in mind for that crowd. However, it does work for the crowd that has embraced its own style of play that it's good for.

 

Exactly. When I had only one or two I got used to saving it for an important moment. Then I forgot it was there most of the time. Only when some characters got the extra empower ability I started using it more frequently. I saw that as a "free to use because it's extra".

[mant2si]

I assume that the biggest problem in balancing empower button is L8 - L9 caster abilities. I think we all know how Obsidian will balance that :D (disable empower for L8 - L9 abilities ?)

[InsaneCommander]

I think we all know how Obsidian will balance that :D

 

Shh! Don't give them any ideas!

[Verde]

It's a really dumb mechanic that turns casters into Empower bots later on.

[baldurs_gate_2]

Because balance. He makes solid arguments for why it's bad.

 

Personally I only use it for resources since I play solo. However I much more prefer the system in the previous game and I am not a big fan of empower. Not a fan of the current resource system either.

Balance? If you want to balance your game, just don't use empower, what is the problem about that? No need to remove a feature, what other ppl want to use, for ppl they don't want it and just have to not press the button.

[dunehunter]

Implement one God Challenge to disable empower, problem solved

 

But even without Empower, you can get a lot PL from gears, like Magran's Favor + Sun&Moon + Pet that gives u +5 PL, that is like to have Empower on every Fire Spells u have...So I'd ask, is it really the issue of Empower? I can make my spells 'permanent empowered' by using right gears anyway.

[Somnium_Meum]

 

Because balance. He makes solid arguments for why it's bad.

 

Personally I only use it for resources since I play solo. However I much more prefer the system in the previous game and I am not a big fan of empower. Not a fan of the current resource system either.

Balance? If you want to balance your game, just don't use empower, what is the problem about that? No need to remove a feature, what other ppl want to use, for ppl they don't want it and just have to not press the button.

 

What's the difference between this and godmode? You can apply the same argument - "if you want balance and challenge just don't use it LOL".

If there's something broken it should be fixed, and not presented as feature.

The game has more than 4 difficulty settings, i don't get why everyone (especially casual players - no offense) want to play PotD. PotD should require extensive knowledge, well built characters and usage of all available means to beat the game. Right now you can just abuse busted mechanics such as spamming Empower/Per Rest Abilities and Figurines and beat the game without breaking sweat.

There's a reason why is everyone and their mother complaining about Port Maje's difficulty - it's the only part of the game where it's difficult to exploit Rest system and Figurines. Hasongo is mechanically much more difficult than Port Maje but you don't see anyone complaining about it.

 

Implement one God Challenge to disable empower, problem solved

 

But even without Empower, you can get a lot PL from gears, like Magran's Favor + Sun&Moon + Pet that gives u +5 PL, that is like to have Empower on every Fire Spells u have...So I'd ask, is it really the issue of Empower? I can make my spells 'permanent empowered' by using right gears anyway.

I wish they would implement challenges that disable figurines, empower and tweaks Rest system. Unfortunately i doubt this is going to happen.

 

Sure, you can get +5 PL from items, but it's restricted to one keyword and you sacrifice "item power budget" for it. These items pay heavy price for that bonus PL while Empower has literally no drawbacks.

Similar situation is with empowering self - You CAN get 50% more casts, but it's limited for Wizard, you won't be able to use Grimoires and everything will interrupt you. You can fix the interrupt problem, but that will cost you a Wound and Helmet slot. Using empower has no drawbacks and gives you 50% of your resources back.

[dunehunter]

 

Implement one God Challenge to disable empower, problem solved

 

But even without Empower, you can get a lot PL from gears, like Magran's Favor + Sun&Moon + Pet that gives u +5 PL, that is like to have Empower on every Fire Spells u have...So I'd ask, is it really the issue of Empower? I can make my spells 'permanent empowered' by using right gears anyway.

I wish they would implement challenges that disable figurines, empower and tweaks Rest system. Unfortunately i doubt this is going to happen.

 

Sure, you can get +5 PL from items, but it's restricted to one keyword and you sacrifice "item power budget" for it. These items pay heavy price for that bonus PL while Empower has literally no drawbacks.

Similar situation is with empowering self - You CAN get 50% more casts, but it's limited for Wizard, you won't be able to use Grimoires and everything will interrupt you. You can fix the interrupt problem, but that will cost you a Wound and Helmet slot. Using empower has no drawbacks and gives you 50% of your resources back.

 

 

I don't quite understand when u mean item power budget here, both weapon is very good even without the +PL. And yes of course it only adds PL for one keyword. But it is also true that Empower only applies to ONE spell while with these gears ALL your fire spells are Empowered.

[Manveru123]

What's the difference between this and godmode? You can apply the same argument - "if you want balance and challenge just don't use it LOL".

 

If there's something broken it should be fixed, and not presented as feature.

 

The difference is that "god mode" is not a part of this game's mechanics. You're comparing something that is a part of the gameplay to cheating with the console, it's silly. Using Empower doesn't make you immortal.

 

Just because there are people that think a mechanic is broken, doesn't mean that everyone should lose access to it. So instead of trying to ruin the game for people that have a different opinion, just don't click the damn button if it offends you so much.

[Somnium_Meum]

 

 

Implement one God Challenge to disable empower, problem solved

 

But even without Empower, you can get a lot PL from gears, like Magran's Favor + Sun&Moon + Pet that gives u +5 PL, that is like to have Empower on every Fire Spells u have...So I'd ask, is it really the issue of Empower? I can make my spells 'permanent empowered' by using right gears anyway.

I wish they would implement challenges that disable figurines, empower and tweaks Rest system. Unfortunately i doubt this is going to happen.

 

Sure, you can get +5 PL from items, but it's restricted to one keyword and you sacrifice "item power budget" for it. These items pay heavy price for that bonus PL while Empower has literally no drawbacks.

Similar situation is with empowering self - You CAN get 50% more casts, but it's limited for Wizard, you won't be able to use Grimoires and everything will interrupt you. You can fix the interrupt problem, but that will cost you a Wound and Helmet slot. Using empower has no drawbacks and gives you 50% of your resources back.

 

 

I don't quite understand when u mean item power budget here, both weapon is very good even without the +PL. And yes of course it only adds PL for one keyword. But it is also true that Empower only applies to ONE spell while with these gears ALL your fire spells are Empowered.

 

It's pretty simple. Let's say that every item has "power budget". This budget represents how much power you can give to item, so for example Pets have small power budget and weapons have the most of all items.

So, let's say Pets can give you damage increase of 1%. Pet1 can give you 1 DEX, Pet2 can give you +3 Accuracy, Pet3 can give you +5% damage with firearms. These bonuses are not equal to each other, but on average they are of similar power.

Naturally players want to use certain stats that are more valuable to them, so they prefer some pets over others. In your case it's Otto StarCat (+1 fire PL) as he works pretty well with your build.

It's a bit more difficult when it comes to weapon, because you might want +2 PL, but there are other options such as Griffin Blade (+10% spell damage) or random firearm that doesn't increase Spell Damage, but instead allows you to shoot between spells and thus giving you extra damage.

 

With Empower that's not the case. You don't have options, you either use it or not.

Problem is that PL from Empower affects some classes/spells (Evoker) much more than others (Enchanter) which leads to imbalance.

It's similar to Figurines, you can use them in every fight with no downside while Chanter and Ranger classes (one is designed summoner and the other adds another body into fight) are heavily taxed because of their summons/pet.

 

 

What's the difference between this and godmode? You can apply the same argument - "if you want balance and challenge just don't use it LOL".

 

If there's something broken it should be fixed, and not presented as feature.

 

The difference is that "god mode" is not a part of this game's mechanics. You're comparing something that is a part of the gameplay to cheating with the console, it's silly. Using Empower doesn't make you immortal.

 

Just because there are people that think a mechanic is broken, doesn't mean that everyone should lose access to it. So instead of trying to ruin the game for people that have a different opinion, just don't click the damn button if it offends you so much.

Yeah, empower doesn't make you immortal, it just drastically improves survivability (via more heals/buffs) or damage output (hi empowered minolettas).

I don't want to remove it, i just want it to be less busted.

[Manveru123]

Without Empower regenerating resources, combat would be ****, because you would have to auto attack for most of it. That's just boring. I'd gladly trade Empower for a way for every class to regenerate resources passively, but I bet my ass they won't implement such a huge change.

 

One thing I don't like is that it's not fair that some classes have no good way to use Empower offensively. Basically, other than offensive casters and single class Monk, other classes just use it for resource regen. But this is due to the fact that many abilities simply don't work with Empower at all, which is lame.

[Teclis23]

Without Empower regenerating resources, combat would be ****, because you would have to auto attack for most of it. That's just boring. I'd gladly trade Empower for a way for every class to regenerate resources passively, but I bet my ass they won't implement such a huge change.

 

One thing I don't like is that it's not fair that some classes have no good way to use Empower offensively. Basically, other than offensive casters and single class Monk, other classes just use it for resource regen. But this is due to the fact that many abilities simply don't work with Empower at all, which is lame.

Combat is **** now becuase you can spam all abilities non stop. Because of there being little scarcity all abilities feel "cheap"

 

It is just stupid being able to recharge youself with a stupid cheesy tacky recharge button

[Somnium_Meum]

Without Empower regenerating resources, combat would be ****, because you would have to auto attack for most of it. That's just boring. I'd gladly trade Empower for a way for every class to regenerate resources passively, but I bet my ass they won't implement such a huge change.

 

One thing I don't like is that it's not fair that some classes have no good way to use Empower offensively. Basically, other than offensive casters and single class Monk, other classes just use it for resource regen. But this is due to the fact that many abilities simply don't work with Empower at all, which is lame.

Exactly that is the problem - some classes are just screwed by Empower.

How often are you running out of resources? If you mean "i can't use spell 4 times in row" i think that's intended, because why would you use spells other than your preferred ones? But i agree, running out of resources is large problem esp. up to the point where you meet Aloth.

There IS a "legit" to regenerate resources during fight - have a Cipher. He can provide buff that restores resources, and Ascendant can quickly apply it to entire party if you set up his AI

 

 

Edit: I'd love to see "attrition" encounters that will force player to think twice about saving abilities vs spamming them, but only if these encounters are optional.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Somnium_Meum

[Manveru123]

 

Without Empower regenerating resources, combat would be ****, because you would have to auto attack for most of it. That's just boring. I'd gladly trade Empower for a way for every class to regenerate resources passively, but I bet my ass they won't implement such a huge change.

 

One thing I don't like is that it's not fair that some classes have no good way to use Empower offensively. Basically, other than offensive casters and single class Monk, other classes just use it for resource regen. But this is due to the fact that many abilities simply don't work with Empower at all, which is lame.

Combat is **** now becuase you can spam all abilities non stop. Because of there being little scarcity all abilities feel "cheap"

 

It is just stupid being able to recharge youself with a stupid cheesy tacky recharge button

 

According to you. I like it. And there are topics on the forum already that clearly show that most people prefer Deadfire combat over POE1. Would you prefer cooldown mechanic from Tyranny instead? Not to mention that even with Empower restore, you will run out of abilities if you just spam them.

 

And again, like a broken record: don't click the button if you don't want to. Nobody is forcing you to use it.

 

 

Without Empower regenerating resources, combat would be ****, because you would have to auto attack for most of it. That's just boring. I'd gladly trade Empower for a way for every class to regenerate resources passively, but I bet my ass they won't implement such a huge change.

 

One thing I don't like is that it's not fair that some classes have no good way to use Empower offensively. Basically, other than offensive casters and single class Monk, other classes just use it for resource regen. But this is due to the fact that many abilities simply don't work with Empower at all, which is lame.

Exactly that is the problem - some classes are just screwed by Empower.

How often are you running out of resources? If you mean "i can't use spell 4 times in row" i think that's intended, because why would you use spells other than your preferred ones? But i agree, running out of resources is large problem esp. up to the point where you meet Aloth.

There IS a "legit" to regenerate resources during fight - have a Cipher. He can provide buff that restores resources, and Ascendant can quickly apply it to entire party if you set up his AI

 

 

Edit: I'd love to see "attrition" encounters that will force player to think twice about saving abilities vs spamming them, but only if these encounters are optional.

 

Running out of resources is a bigger problem for melee classes. High level casters usually use Empower on damage instead, because they have a lot of spells to cast. I know Brilliant inspiration exists, but currently only one class has it and needs to reach mid-game levels to use it. You would prefer to be forced to carry a Cipher with you in every single run instead of having Empower restore? I doubt that.

 

Implementing attrition based combat is impossible because it would require completely rewriting game mechanics. Maybe in POE3.

[Teclis23]

There was a poll done to compare the changes made form PoE1 to poe2 and most people preferred Poe 1 better FYI

[Manveru123]

FYI, nope. Don't you remember your own poll?

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/103326-poll-do-you-like-poe1-casting-and-ability-use-system-better-or-poe2s/

 

Clearly more votes for Deadfire. It's close, but I don't see these masses dissapointed with combat anywhere

[daven]

I prefer the combat in Deadfire, mainly because in the first game it was over in about 2 seconds and I couldn't really tell what the hell was going on. My guy would run at light speed across the screen even on slow mode.

 

However, Empower isn't all the interesting of a mechanic. Is there even any reason for its existence within the game world?

[pi2repsion]

Without Empower regenerating resources, combat would be ****, because you would have to auto attack for most of it. That's just boring. I'd gladly trade Empower for a way for every class to regenerate resources passively, but I bet my ass they won't implement such a huge change.

 

One thing I don't like is that it's not fair that some classes have no good way to use Empower offensively. Basically, other than offensive casters and single class Monk, other classes just use it for resource regen. But this is due to the fact that many abilities simply don't work with Empower at all, which is lame.

Which is a good an argument as any in favour of scrapping empower entirely and just giving everybody +50% resources as default;  It is what everybody who remembers to use empower in the first place gets, who doesn't have access to one of the few abilities that scale superbly with power level.

 

(If there were meaningful barriers to resting and regaining empower points, this argument would be less convincing, but there aren't so it isn't.)

[baldurs_gate_2]

 

Without Empower regenerating resources, combat would be ****, because you would have to auto attack for most of it. That's just boring. I'd gladly trade Empower for a way for every class to regenerate resources passively, but I bet my ass they won't implement such a huge change.

 

One thing I don't like is that it's not fair that some classes have no good way to use Empower offensively. Basically, other than offensive casters and single class Monk, other classes just use it for resource regen. But this is due to the fact that many abilities simply don't work with Empower at all, which is lame.

Exactly that is the problem - some classes are just screwed by Empower.

How often are you running out of resources? If you mean "i can't use spell 4 times in row" i think that's intended, because why would you use spells other than your preferred ones? But i agree, running out of resources is large problem esp. up to the point where you meet Aloth.

There IS a "legit" to regenerate resources during fight - have a Cipher. He can provide buff that restores resources, and Ascendant can quickly apply it to entire party if you set up his AI

 

 

Edit: I'd love to see "attrition" encounters that will force player to think twice about saving abilities vs spamming them, but only if these encounters are optional.

 

"Party". What is with the solo players, they only got one class and mostly not a cipher, because that is not tier 1? For some fights, the given ressources are just not enough.