Baldur's Gate 2 > PoE 2 Deadfire

[anathanielh]

I’m also not trying to personally offend you by liking something you don’t and not liking something that you love. I have opinions and I like to share them.

Edited June 30, 2018 by anathanielh

[Tick]

I can’t stand it. I have school and a job and a dying social life that I have to desparately keep track of before I collapse and die. I agree that PoE 2 isn’t perfect, but to me is so much less tedious to get through (for me because this is subjective) and the combat is satisfying enough.

 

 

Lol. That one hit close to home.

[anathanielh]

 

I tried playing BG2 recently and I honestly thought it was a steaming load of crap, but I have no doubt that if I played it as a kid I would have had a whale of a time.

When you’re young a cliche may not be a cliche to you, as you may not have seen it yet in your life. when you’re young every tedious quest that BG2 makes you have to slog through may not be that way because you have all the time in the world to figure out how to stop a gimmicky boss from one-shotting your team.

I can’t stand it. I have school and a job and a dying social life that I have to desparately keep track of before I collapse and die. I agree that PoE 2 isn’t perfect, but to me is so much less tedious to get through (for me because this is subjective) and the combat is satisfying enough.

It’s fine to still like a game that you’ve played 20 years ago, but to outright deny that nostalgia has anything to do with it seems absolutely deluded to me. Just own up to it. I played Mickey Mouse Racing for the playstation when I was a child and the image I have in my head of it is absolutely marvelous. It will forever be my favorite racing game because of the good memories I have of it. I know that if I play it again, however, that I wouldn’t stand the constant bull**** that game throws at the player to cheat them of victories.

 

I hope you don't mean that horrible remake of BGII with playing recently-

I played the enhanced edition on GOG. If that was the wrong one, that’s a shame, but the metaphorical cherry that is my first impression has already been popped, I’m afraid.

[Teukros]

PoE 2 is far better than BG 2 (ok, maybe magic system was better in BG). However, when you look at release dates (2001 for BG 2, 2018 for PoE 2) it's obvious that in 2001 BG 2 was a groundbreaking achievement, while in 2018 PoE 2 is... well, it's just a well-written game.

[MortyTheGobbo]

I feel that when people gush about Baldur's Gate tactics, they specifically mean the first half of BG2, because that's when the game actually has those. Everyone is reasonably competent and won't die when something looks at them funny. Spellcasters cast, non-spellcasters... well, they auto-attack day in and day out, but at least they do it well. But everyone has a role and you have to leverage those properly. It's as good as AD&D is ever going to get.

 

The early game of BG1 has the AD&D charm of everyone being a good hit or two from dying, and spellcasters have a handful of spells they can cast, so the best tactic is to give everyone ranged weapons and kite the hell out of everything. Sometimes you'll fire off a Sleep spell and end the encounter instantly. But you'll also quick-load a lot when someone trips over an arrow and dies. Then there's the encounter design which will send those arrows at you in swarms.

 

The latter half of BG2 and the entirety of TOB, meanwhile, swings in the other direction - AC ceases to matter, as everyone will only ever miss on a natural 1. So mundane combat becomes a race to deplete HP. Spellcasters are obscenely powerful, but a lot of the time can't do anything because of massive spell resistance and super-high saves.

 

And, once again - even at its best, half of the characters in a Baldur's Gate party have nothing to do except auto-attacking and using items. So the talk about using the same abilities over and over in Pillars kind of rings hollow.

Edited June 30, 2018 by MortyTheGobbo

[xzar_monty]

And, once again - even at its best, half of the characters in a Baldur's Gate party have nothing to do except auto-attacking and using items. So the talk about using the same abilities over and over in Pillars kind of rings hollow.

 

I think this is an astonishing comment. I always keep the party AI off, so nobody ever auto-attacks or auto-does anything in my party. And frankly, I find it kind of strange that someone would use the party AI and allow their characters to auto-attack. I mean, sure, it's a way to play the game, but I can't see why you'd want to do that. Why not watch a movie instead?

[anathanielh]

 

And, once again - even at its best, half of the characters in a Baldur's Gate party have nothing to do except auto-attacking and using items. So the talk about using the same abilities over and over in Pillars kind of rings hollow.

 

 

I think this is an astonishing comment. I always keep the party AI off, so nobody ever auto-attacks or auto-does anything in my party. And frankly, I find it kind of strange that someone would use the party AI and allow their characters to auto-attack. I mean, sure, it's a way to play the game, but I can't see why you'd want to do that. Why not watch a movie instead?

By auto-attacking, I’m sure he means only smacking an enemy with your weapon and using few skills. Nothing to do with the AI in this context.

[daven]

Haven't read any of this topic but yeah. I actually played BG and BG2 over a decade after they came out but still think they are fantastic.

 

BG2 is something special. Has a lot of flaws but everything comes togeher to make a fantastic game.

[xzar_monty]

When it comes to "auto-attacking" and/or using skills, I don't think there's a significant difference between the two games. So that's not a deciding factor, for me anyway. BG2 still wins hands down.

[MortyTheGobbo]

When it comes to "auto-attacking" and/or using skills, I don't think there's a significant difference between the two games. So that's not a deciding factor, for me anyway. BG2 still wins hands down.

 

A PoE 2 non-spellcasting character has several abilities they can use other than just attacking by level 5, and keeps gaining them. A BG1/2 one only gets some by Throne of Bhaal, in most cases. That you choose to ignore a factor doesn't make it not exist.

[Vitalis]

 

PoE 2 isn’t perfect, but to me is so much less tedious to get through

Load of bull****. PoE just because of it's system that has more granularity in it is the definition of tedious. It's all about tedious gameplay and repeatedly using abilities you use every combat on every character. Unless you play it on story mode or smh.

 

If you master BG2 you can go through it very quickly. PoE if you don't exploit, is same repetition every combat.

The cognitive dissonance is strong with you.

 

The D&D combat system has NEVER been "easy" without knowing how to exploit the combat. I can find you class guides for the tabletop that detail exactly how to do that so you don't end up with a waste of space.

 

Even without those, a druid is almost always going to be built around Wild Shape and taking the feat that allows the druid to cast spells while in Wild Shape.

 

The Wizard is either going to save the party with it's extremely cheesy CC spells, or pretend to be useful with damage spells; the fighter is going to have a two handed weapon, or a shield if he wants to emulate being a waste of space; the Cleric is going to be a better fighter than the actual fighter despite having medium BAB, and the Paladin is almost always going to be the stick in the mud that stops the party from doing anything entertaining while being marginally better than a fighter.

 

All of those are "exploits" employed in high level D&D to counteract the system where everything is going to hit you, everything is going to do damage, and that Illithid over there just dominated your mind and you've just killed your party.

 

A non-ARPG adaption of the D&D system is going to have some if not all of that in its system as well. Every system is going to penalize you if you don't learn how to abuse it.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Vitalis

[xzar_monty]

 

When it comes to "auto-attacking" and/or using skills, I don't think there's a significant difference between the two games. So that's not a deciding factor, for me anyway. BG2 still wins hands down.

 

A PoE 2 non-spellcasting character has several abilities they can use other than just attacking by level 5, and keeps gaining them. A BG1/2 one only gets some by Throne of Bhaal, in most cases. That you choose to ignore a factor doesn't make it not exist.

 

 

I am not ignoring it, I'm simply saying it's not significant. There is no question that a PoE fighter, for instance, has a lot more options than a BG2 fighter, but to me that's not significant enough to make this aspect a major difference between the games.

[daven]

Yeah the combat in BG2 isn't the best thing ever, but I feel with these sort of games it's the overall experience what matters.

 

Using the Forgotten Realms is almost unfair however, had years of people adding to the lore and what have you for it.

[Daled]

I don't get why people have to rank everything. Especially in a work of art one thing is rarely "clearly better" than another, a good song is a good song as any other good song, you might like one more than another but that's it, it's simply touches your "chords" better.

 

That doesn't mean that you can't discuss about the goods and bads of something but I feel we lose so much time in meaningless arguments about what's better, it almost sound like the child's argument about who's stronger between hero X and hero Y, of totally unrelated narrative universe :D

Edited June 30, 2018 by Daled

[Manveru123]

BG2 had much better designed and memorable characters. I have fond memories of Jan Jansen and Minsc to this day. Irenicus and Sarevok are better villians than anything Deadfire could throw at you. Side characters like Firkraag were also much better written.

 

The storyline was much better, especially if you include Throne of Bhaal. It had considerably more "epic" feel. The game builds on the story by giving you actual godlike powers in the late levels.

 

Deadfire has clearly superior combat mechanics, but that's because it is not stuck in a VERY OLD AD&D ruleset. It would be a better game if it could deliver in story and character departament, but it did not.

[anathanielh]

I don't get why people have to rank everything. Especially in a work of art one thing is rarely "clearly better" than another, a good song is a good song as any other good song, you might like one more than another but that's it, it's simply touches your "chords" better.That doesn't mean that you can't discuss about the goods and bads of something but I feel we lose so much time in meaningless arguments about what's better, it almost sound like the child's argument about who's stronger between hero X and hero Y, of totally unrelated narrative universe :D

I think it’s only a problem when people stop viewing opinions as opinions, but as undeniable truths that can’t be disagreed with lest you’re an affront to their way of life.

[Tick]

I don't get why people have to rank everything. Especially in a work of art one thing is rarely "clearly better" than another, a good song is a good song as any other good song, you might like one more than another but that's it, it's simply touches your "chords" better.

 

That doesn't mean that you can't discuss about the goods and bads of something but I feel we lose so much time in meaningless arguments about what's better, it almost sound like the child's argument about who's stronger between hero X and hero Y, of totally unrelated narrative universe :D

It's kind of a negative conversation to have. I think people often do it when they're frustrated with a game or games. I certainly did. And right now there are only a few developers making a few games anywhere close to games like Baldurs Gate or Fallout 1, so if you're missing those kinds of games and the ones that are supposed to be like them don't hit you right, it's probably really frustrating.

 

For me, I love Obsidian's games, even when they're a mess, and I like the world and system they've built and the way the game integrates with the universe, so I don't mind that it's not exactly the same /doesn't have the same feeling.

[knownastherat]

Except perhaps the bug report section of the forum, everything is pretty much meaningless. What I think of this or that .. who cares and how is it important, right? Oh wait!

[Tick]

Except perhaps the bug report section of the forum, everything is pretty much meaningless. What I think of this or that .. who cares and how is it important, right? Oh wait!

That wasn't really the point.

[knownastherat]

 

Except perhaps the bug report section of the forum, everything is pretty much meaningless. What I think of this or that .. who cares and how is it important, right? Oh wait!

That wasn't really the point.

 

 

How did you determine that?

 

Disregarding that it's in let's say the nature of humans to make comparisons - we constantly evaluate and compare which very useful to our knowledge and ability to make decisions -, thus displaying let's say amazement over humans making comparisons seems naive, which is just obvious,  pointing out that "meaningless" is term without meaning is right on the point. I mean, what is not meaningless? Oh meaningless is what I do not think is meaningless, right? Right. 

[xzar_monty]

I don't get why people have to rank everything. Especially in a work of art one thing is rarely "clearly better" than another, a good song is a good song as any other good song, you might like one more than another but that's it, it's simply touches your "chords" better.

 

This is an age-old discussion, and if you get more deeply into it, you'll realize that it's not like you said.

 

Besides, we're not talking about ranking everything here. We're talking about two important titles in a niche genre, and I think it's a perfectly valid discussion. Or, if it doesn't seem valid for you, it's very simple to stay out of it.

 

There's an argument to be made for the idea that "everything is just opinion and that's it", but then, if somebody really tried to claim that The Shaggs is better than The Beatles, or that James Patterson is better than Hemingway, or that Plan 9 From Outer Space is better than The Shining, I'm pretty sure that essentially everybody sane would question their capacity for reasonable judgement. So when you get down to it, it's not just opinions -- there are reasonable arguments to be made for why something is or isn't good.

 

In my book, both PoE and BG2 are definitely good, even very good. It's just that BG2 is a couple of notches better, for reasons I've described above.

[Shadenuat]

I said the game was bad TO ME

Yes to u. Everything you say about yourself is applied to you, not to anyone else. And if you're wrong, it is still you.

 

It's ok to say if game is too difficult. But saying PoE is less tedious is simply untrue.

 

The cognitive dissonance is strong with you.

The D&D combat system has NEVER been "easy" without knowing how to exploit the combat. I can find you class guides for the tabletop that detail exactly how to do that so you don't end up with a waste of space.

 

Even without those, a druid is almost always going to be built around Wild Shape and taking the feat that allows the druid to cast spells while in Wild Shape.

You make no sense. BG2 didn't have casting in wild shape and sword&shield was perfectly viable. You didn't have to pick a manual to learn the game. There were even no builds to speak of. You played fighter you took most str/dex/con and that was the build for a fighter. You didn't build casters around ANYTHING. You had wizard you could learn, and use, any spell, at any time. There were no "trap spells", since if you didn't like one, you could just memorise Sleep if you liked Sleep more.

 

The encounters in IE simply often are quicker. Hardest difficulty doesn't do anything to enemy hp. There are no vampires with 700 hp like in PoE2. It's just a fact that's how it works. IE is less complex than PoE when it comes to character development, and the combat plays quicker.

 

Once again I find it hilarious how many people turn to bitching on D&D. It's like a popular thing to kick some old thing. Thing which did lots of things right and led to great games.

 

Same with IE games though, these forums seem to be choke full of people who hate games which PoE is based on and are eager to mix them with dirt cause they're old or difficult or lol aerie romance. It's just outstanding. Maybe Sawyer's existence emits some sort of waves that brainwash people? I can't but wonder.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Shadenuat

[anathanielh]

 

I said the game was bad TO ME

 

Yes to u. Everything you say about yourself is applied to you, not to anyone else. And if you're wrong, it is still you.

 

It's ok to say if game is too difficult. But saying PoE is less tedious is simply untrue.

 

The cognitive dissonance is strong with you.

 

The D&D combat system has NEVER been "easy" without knowing how to exploit the combat. I can find you class guides for the tabletop that detail exactly how to do that so you don't end up with a waste of space.

Even without those, a druid is almost always going to be built around Wild Shape and taking the feat that allows the druid to cast spells while in Wild Shape.

 

You make no sense. BG2 didn't have casting in wild shape and sword&shield was perfectly viable. You didn't have to pick a manual to learn the game. There were even no builds to speak of. You played fighter you took most str/dex/con and that was the build for a fighter.

 

The encounters in IE simply often are quicker. Hardest difficulty doesn't do anything to enemy hp. There are no vampires with 700 hp like in PoE2. It's just a fact that's how it works. IE is less complex than PoE when it comes to character development, and the combat plays quicker.

 

Once again I find it hilarious how many people turn to bitching on D&D. It's like a popular thing to kick some old thing. Thing which did lots of things right and led to great games.

 

Same with IE games though, these forums seem to be choke full of people who hate games which PoE is based on and are eager to mix them with dirt cause they're old or difficult or lol aerie romance. It's just outstanding. Maybe Sawyer's existence emits some sort of waves that brainwash people? I can't but wonder.

Once again, how tedious something is to me is my opinion. Like some people find biochemistry tedious, but others find it fun. I even said, and I quote, “...but TO ME [PoE2] is much less tedious to get through...”.

 

Denouncing my opinion on how tedious BG2 is to me as “simply untrue” is nonsense, my guy. I believe it is a slog, and you don’t, and that’s just fine.

Edited June 30, 2018 by anathanielh

[majestic]

You make no sense. BG2 didn't have casting in wild shape and sword&shield was perfectly viable. You didn't have to pick a manual to learn the game. There were even no builds to speak of. You played fighter you took most str/dex/con and that was the build for a fighter. You didn't build casters around ANYTHING. You had wizard you could learn, and use, any spell, at any time. There were no "trap spells", since if you didn't like one, you could just memorise Sleep if you liked Sleep more.

 

Vitalis was talking about the wrong D&D edition, yeah. Kinda makes the point a bit moot.

[Shadenuat]

Denouncing my opinion on how tedious BG2 is to me as “simply untrue” is nonsense, my guy. I believe it is a slog, and you don’t, and that’s just fine.

You said game is boring ****, I said you're wrong. You gotta back it up with some facts, you can't just pretend that your belief is true because it's "yours". Otherwise what's the point of what you wrote, what value it holds, and why should we care for you not having time to study the game a bit before making an opinion on it, cause your social life sucks or not?

 

Vitalis was talking about the wrong D&D edition, yeah. Kinda makes the point a bit moot.

Well IWD2 had skeletal D&D3. I don't remember stuff like burning hands being useless or sword&shield being that bad.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Shadenuat