The 'Changes for Balance' Thread

[nemesis205bw]

As most of you probably know, the balance and difficulty in this game is way off. Some abilities are so much better than others and have too big impact making other choices redundant. Lets help obsidian make this game better and list broken stuff with proposed solutions.

 

Here is my list of the most problematic and toxic abilities I encountered. I will list only those gamebreaking ones as there is much more than that. Please do the same.

 

Paladin

 

- Lay of hands on shieldbearer subclass

 

Problem:

causes immortality that can be applied over and over especially with brilliant inspiration. It allows you to become immortal for up to 180sec (without brilliant) or forever (with brilliant).

 

Solution:

remove immortality and instead put on a target buff that ressurects him after he die while this effect holds. This will allow to do this up to 3 times because of wounds, making it far more intuitive to use.

 

- Armor stacking

 

Problem:

its far too easy to stack so much armor that most enemies will deal only minimum dmg (25%) which combined with large shield modal let you receive only 12.5% dmg from most enemies. Currently having only 1,2 or 3 armor points above enemy pen makes too big impact which can lead to situation where ogre crits your fighter for 80dmg and the same ogre crits palading for 20dmg all because of 3 armor points difference.

 

Solution:

change how armor works. Make it reduce dmg by flat amount (like POE1) and additional reduction equal to armor advantage times 10%. Having 3 armor more would reduce dmg by armor value and 30% opening up more builds and armor options without mandatory focus on every armor point you can get.

 

 

Cipher:

 

- Time Parasite

 

Problem:

currently it allows you to stack action speed to more than 350% with single cast and up to thousands % range with more casts making it totally broken.

 

Solution:

put a 50% cap on attack speed gained.

 

- Ascendant subclass

 

Problem:

ascendent effect is far too easy to achieve - in most fights you can fill it with single shot (longbow with multiple projecticles) or 2 shots with dual wield pistols/blunderbuss which happens almost instantly one after another without recovery.

 

Solution:

 

increase the upper cap for focus 2x of what it currently is.

 

- Ascendent effect

 

Problem:

it lasts way too long and is too powerfull allowing you to spam top tier abilities one after another

 

Solution:

make it consume focus which would still allow many casts, but atleast you would consider casting lower tier abilities

 

 

Chanter

 

- Dragon summons

 

Problem:

their fireball ability is way too strong. It can be empowered (drake resource) to deal 100+ dmg in aoe and apply dot for 40+ seconds that ticks for 30.

 

Solution:

remove dot effect from fireball

 

- Starting phases

 

Problem:

currently, you can cast your highest level invocations at the start of combat. It is especially strong with summoning abilities or brilliant buff invocation

 

Solution:

reduce starting phases to 1 per 3 power levels and add passive that let you start with 1 more to compensate (you will still end up with lower starting amount). With this change, chanter will be able to start combat with lower level summons or wait some time to summon stronger creature giving them some choice.

 

- Brilliant invocation

 

Problem:

it lasts too long, cost too little, is available too soon and brilliant effect is too strong

 

Solution:

rework brilliant inspiration so it doesnt restore resources, or nerf its duration to base 6 sec which will restore 2-3 resource points over its duration depending on int.

 

- +100% healing chant

 

Problem:

it is too strong with other healing effects and completely breaks some abilities

 

Solution:

change it to tick every 3 sec based on healing received up to a cap. You already have this functionality on some weapons with lifesteal effect

 

 

Fighter:

 

- Unbending

 

Problem:

it has toxic synergy with +healing effects (look above but also items/food etc.) making you unkillable for very long time and can be cast over and over again

 

Solution:

change it to reduce dmg received by 25% and redirect that 25% to close enemy to compensate (you already have this functionality in cipher pain link). Upgraded version changes it to 33% in 1 path while the other path puts lesser version (12.5%) on allies.

 

 

Monk:

 

.... where do I start? turning wheel, lightning strikes, shatter pillar, 9 power level abilities, dance of death + blade tunning... take your pick

Edited May 17, 2018 by nemesis205bw

[Torm51]

As most of you probably know, the balance and difficulty in this game is way off. Some abilities are so much better than others and have too big impact making other choices redundant. Lets help obsidian make this game better and list broken stuff with proposed solutions.

 

Here is my list of the most problematic and toxic abilities I encountered. I will list only those gamebreaking ones as there is much more than that. Please do the same.

 

Paladin

 

- Lay of hands on shieldbearer subclass

 

Problem:

causes immortality that can be applied over and over especially with genius inspiration. It allows you to become immortal for up to 180sec (without genius) or forever (with genius).

 

Solution:

remove immortality and instead put on a target buff that ressurects him after he die while this effect holds. This will allow to do this up to 3 times because of wounds, making it far more intuitive to use.

 

- Armor stacking

 

Problem:

its far too easy to stack so much armor that most enemies will deal only minimum dmg (25%) which combined with large shield modal let you receive only 12.5% dmg from most enemies. Currently having only 1,2 or 3 armor points above enemy pen makes too big impact which can lead to situation where ogre crits your fighter for 80dmg and the same ogre crits palading for 20dmg all because of 3 armor points difference.

 

Solution:

change how armor works. Make it reduce dmg by flat amount (like POE1) and additional reduction equal to armor advantage times 10%. Having 3 armor more would reduce dmg by armor value and 30% opening up more builds and armor options without mandatory focus on every armor point you can get.

 

 

Cipher:

 

- Time Parasite

 

Problem:

currently it allows you to stack action speed to more than 350% with single cast and up to thousands % range with more casts making it totally broken.

 

Solution:

put a 50% cap on attack speed gained.

 

- Ascendant subclass

 

Problem:

ascendent effect is far too easy to achieve - in most fights you can fill it with single shot (longbow with multiple projecticles) or 2 shots with dual wield pistols/blunderbuss which happens almost instantly one after another without recovery.

 

Solution:

 

increase the upper cap for focus 2x of what it currently is.

 

- Ascendent effect

 

Problem:

it lasts way too long and is too powerfull allowing you to spam top tier abilities one after another

 

Solution:

make it consume focus which would still allow many casts, but atleast you would consider casting lower tier abilities

 

 

Chanter

 

- Dragon summons

 

Problem:

their fireball ability is way too strong. It can be empowered (drake resource) to deal 100+ dmg in aoe and apply dot for 40+ seconds that ticks for 30.

 

Solution:

remove dot effect from fireball

 

- Starting phases

 

Problem:

currently, you can cast your highest level invocations at the start of combat. It is especially strong with summoning abilities or genius buff invocation

 

Solution:

reduce starting phases to 1 per 3 power levels and add passive that let you start with 1 more to compensate (you will still end up with lower starting amount). With this change, chanter will be able to start combat with lower level summons or wait some time to summon stronger creature giving them some choice.

 

- Genius invocation

 

Problem:

it lasts too long, cost too little, is available too soon and genius effect is too strong

 

Solution:

rework genius inspiration so it doesnt restore resources, or nerf its duration to base 6 sec which will restore 2-3 resource points over its duration depending on int.

 

- +100% healing chant

 

Problem:

it is too strong with other healing effects and completely breaks some abilities

 

Solution:

change it to tick every 3 sec based on healing received up to a cap. You already have this functionality on some weapons with lifesteal effect

 

 

Fighter:

 

- Unbending

 

Problem:

it has toxic synergy with +healing effects (look above but also items/food etc.) making you unkillable for very long time and can be cast over and over again

 

Solution:

change it to reduce dmg received by 25% and redirect that 25% to close enemy to compensate (you already have this functionality in cipher pain link). Upgraded version changes it to 33% in 1 path while the other path puts lesser version (12.5%) on allies.

 

 

Monk:

 

.... where do I start? turning wheel, lightning strikes, shatter pillar, 9 power level abilities, dance of death + blade tunning... take your pick

Hey for the Shieldbearer issue, What is a Genius Inspiration?  I thought Brilliant was the highest?  I have been playing mostly side quests so maybe this is something you get for a quest?  If you can constantly refill your abilities and just keep casting LoH I can see your point.  I agree with the Monks

[nemesis205bw]

yes you are right. I corrected it. I am playing on different than english language, sry.

[Torm51]

yes you are right. I corrected it. I am playing on different than english language, sry.

It is no issue, your English is great!  I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing.  So have not reached that inspiration yet.  When you get it you can fill your abilities an unlimited amount of times?

[nemesis205bw]

It is no issue, your English is great!  I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing.  So have not reached that inspiration yet.  When you get it you can fill your abilities an unlimited amount of times?

yes, exactly. Once you hit level 13 and get this invocation, you can have unlimited resources for whole team.

Edited May 17, 2018 by nemesis205bw

[Torm51]

 

It is no issue, your English is great!  I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing.  So have not reached that inspiration yet.  When you get it you can fill your abilities an unlimited amount of times?

yes, exactly. Once you hit level 13 and get this invocation, you can have unlimited resources for whole team.

 

Ya that is too much.  Also Dance of Death and Blade Turning with high INT is too good for sure.  Like I said in the other thread they will tune it down it will just take them time.  POE 1 was tuned for a long while.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Torm51

[Vatman27]

Right now time parasite is the only reason for Cipher to go single class , take that away and there is nothing left for single class ciphers over multiclass. Even in Ascended state, Ciphers are still weaker than most of other single classes so it will be important to fix CIpher being weak before fixing its strong parts

[Tosho]

Wizard:

 

-Empowered Meteor 1 shots everything

-Empowered Salvo 1 shots everything

-Wall of Color - can be cast while stealthed and not break stealth and slowly owns everything.

 

Invisibility Effects:

 

-Allows easy reset of combat. So basically cast 1 empowered spell, cast invisibility skill (there is a few), and run away. Rest and rinse and repeat.

[Clerith]

The biggest ones are paladin immortality, fighter immortality and empowered tier 9 abilities. The rest is arguable, even though the third tier intellect buff is too strong (mostly in combination with immortality and empower). Still, stuff like double focus to nerf ascendant or reduce starting chants? No thanks.

[Nokturnal Lex]

Rogue - Escape Ability

 

Problem:

All of the "Escape" skill upgrades increase the Guile cost from 1 to 3. Making upgrading it completely pointless as the benefit of upgrading it is completely countered by the insanely high guile cost.

 

Solution:

Change all the upgrades to only cost 1 Guile like the original skill does. You already are wasting a skill point upgrading it, you shouldn't be punished for upgrading it.

[evilcat]

I think it is important to separete things which are powerful, but on acceptable level of powerful, and broken which dont work as intended.

What is not working as intended (i hope) are abilities which proc on itself for eternity.

Damaging spells not breaking stealth, that is broken.

 

Chanter starting with chants... it was something long requested in POE1. And it is same as Wizard casting top tier spell twice at start of combat, actually it is worse since wizard can do in like 15 sec, but chanter need a bit more for second load. Even if you summon the dragon it is not a bug, just a feature.

Edited May 19, 2018 by evilcat

[Alhoon]

Rogue - Escape Ability

 

Problem:

All of the "Escape" skill upgrades increase the Guile cost from 1 to 3. Making upgrading it completely pointless as the benefit of upgrading it is completely countered by the insanely high guile cost.

 

Solution:

Change all the upgrades to only cost 1 Guile like the original skill does. You already are wasting a skill point upgrading it, you shouldn't be punished for upgrading it.

Shadowing Beyond NEEDS to cost at least 2 Guile, seeing how broken combat reset with Invisibility is. Maybe Enduring Shadows could cost 1 Guile again seeing it's only available for pure Rogues, but honestly, I'd rather they fix the combat reset from the get-go.

[Nokturnal Lex]

 

Rogue - Escape Ability

 

Problem:

All of the "Escape" skill upgrades increase the Guile cost from 1 to 3. Making upgrading it completely pointless as the benefit of upgrading it is completely countered by the insanely high guile cost.

 

Solution:

Change all the upgrades to only cost 1 Guile like the original skill does. You already are wasting a skill point upgrading it, you shouldn't be punished for upgrading it.

Shadowing Beyond NEEDS to cost at least 2 Guile, seeing how broken combat reset with Invisibility is. Maybe Enduring Shadows could cost 1 Guile again seeing it's only available for pure Rogues, but honestly, I'd rather they fix the combat reset from the get-go.

 

 

Yea, Combat reset needs to be fixed for every ability not just that one lol. Smoke Veil already costs 2 Guile and resets, does basically the same thing as Shadowing Beyond without the teleport and you can get it earlier and doesn't require upgrading an existing skill.

 

Even Smoke Veil's upgrade needs a rework as the Distraction effect it adds is almost pointless as the Persistent Distraction passive makes it so anyone the rogue engages is automatically distracted anyway. It should daze, or confuse or something.

[Tattyblue]

As most of you probably know, the balance and difficulty in this game is way off. Some abilities are so much better than others and have too big impact making other choices redundant. Lets help obsidian make this game better and list broken stuff with proposed solutions....

 

How is nerfing things other people might rely on making the game better?  How is nerfing a single player game something they should be doing when people have been complaining over boring combat, bad ship battles, no dungeons, and short main game path. Why would anyone spend any time or money what so ever on removing, or lessening abilities when there is so many other things so much more important.

[Torm51]

 

As most of you probably know, the balance and difficulty in this game is way off. Some abilities are so much better than others and have too big impact making other choices redundant. Lets help obsidian make this game better and list broken stuff with proposed solutions....

How is nerfing things other people might rely on making the game better? How is nerfing a single player game something they should be doing when people have been complaining over boring combat, bad ship battles, no dungeons, and short main game path. Why would anyone spend any time or money what so ever on removing, or lessening abilities when there is so many other things so much more important.

I’ll grant you that it’s not the number one priority but making combat trivial (which some of these abilities do) is also a bug in my subjective opinion.

[hilfazer]

I’ll grant you that it’s not the number one priority but making combat trivial (which some of these abilities do) is also a bug in my subjective opinion.

But enemies use those abilities too!

Combat is trivial (mostly) for other reasons and OEI is already working on them.

[xzar_monty]

I simply wish to say that not having played the game yet (because of the save import and general difficulty problems), I am absolutely astonished that it's like this. If the OP is correct in what he lists, it could be a long wait before we have a thoroughly functional game.

[Torm51]

 

I’ll grant you that it’s not the number one priority but making combat trivial (which some of these abilities do) is also a bug in my subjective opinion.

But enemies use those abilities too!

Combat is trivial (mostly) for other reasons and OEI is already working on them.

 

Some ya, but not stuff like a monk being invulnerable to melee, not that I have seen.  High int monks are ridiculous at the moment and at times do not take any damage for extended periods of time in melee.  This is my understanding of course of the mechanic I have not seen it yet, I will admit that.

[Torm51]

I simply wish to say that not having played the game yet (because of the save import and general difficulty problems), I am absolutely astonished that it's like this. If the OP is correct in what he lists, it could be a long wait before we have a thoroughly functional game.

I do not think its that bad, the story is still great and the last patch fixed Eder and all of my companions so I am good ( so far).  That being said it could run a lot better, needs some balance and needs bug fixes.  Just like the first game.

[Purudaya]

It looks like backstab has been reduced from +150% to +100% in the latest patch beta. If anything, I would have expected it to be buffed slightly given the following mechanics:

 

1. Using backstab with a single-class rogue as a combat opener is a considerable risk given that enemies tend to swarm the player afterward, typically necessitating the use of smoke veil/escape.

 

2. Using smoke veil during combat and setting up a backstab requires time you would otherwise spend building toward an auto-attack, so the net DPS gain is already less than it appears.

 

3. Smoke veil breaks engagement and often causes enemies to run off and engage another ally, further increasing the amount of time not doing damage as you either chase that enemy in stealth or position against a new one.

 

4. Now that it looks like a lot of the full attack rogue abilities have received a 25% damage bonus, the difference between setting up a backstab mid combat (primary attack) for +100% damage + 1x sneak attack isn't much better than using confounding blind and dual wield (full attack) against a flanked enemy for 2x +25% damage and 2x sneak attack for the same guile cost.

 

While giving rogues a damage boost to full attack abilities helps them hit harder outside of stealth (which probably wasn't necessary), attempting to balance that boost by nerfing backstab reduces the incentive to use it within combat and hurts the flavor of the class (especially for assassins). Respectfully, either backstab should have a significantly larger increase to crit chance or be made innate with a subclass-modified bonus that increases with power level the way sneak attack does. Otherwise, I don't see much point in building a stealth-oriented rogue vs., say, a streetfighter at this point.

[Purudaya]

Edit: double post

Edited June 2, 2018 by Purudaya

[antman45454]

yeah i agree backstab is a highly situational ability that requires alot of scarifices to set up,

 

I am completely blown away this has been nerfed. It certainly was no where near overpowered

 

i am seriously stunned and really concerned they have no idea what they are doing currently at obsidian and just "blanket nerfing" the entire game due to laziness of not wanting to spend the time to balance it properly

Edited June 3, 2018 by antman45454

[Ganrich]

I'm guessing because they buffed a lot of the Rogue's active abilities thus increasing sustain damage. So, they decreased burst to balance it out. The class as a whole is much better for it imho.

[Purudaya]

I actually agree with most of the nerfs and changes in 1.1 (been playing on PotD and the difficulty is significantly improved); I just don't know why backstab  - an ability that hardly defines powerbuilds the way swift flurry and cleaving stance/mob stance did - would need to be nerfed. 150% or maybe even 200% feels about right given what you have to go through re: micromanaging and combat time to get it. Right now, there's little reason not to use finishing/devastating blow (or most other full attack abilities for that matter) instead. 
 

 

I'm guessing because they buffed a lot of the Rogue's active abilities thus increasing sustain damage. So, they decreased burst to balance it out. The class as a whole is much better for it imho.

 

I agree that the class does more damage overall, but the stealth aspect seems to have suffered. From a DPS standpoint, why take a single class assassin with smoke veil/shadowing beyond/other stealth abilities when you can run a streetfighter/devoted focusing on full attack abilities instead? Single class rogues were lackluster with a sizeable amount of useless abilities (withering strike, coordinated positioning, sap) to begin with - they didn't need their buffs to be balanced out with stealth nerfs. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Purudaya

[Ganrich]

Yeah, I'm just guessing at their mentality. I don't necessarily agree with it. It's an odd one to nerf.