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The 'Changes for Balance' Thread


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Maybe, by 'prioritizing' the non stealth aspects of rogues, fixing stealth becomes a lower priority.  There's already a lot of complaints about Smoke Veil being buggy, especially with dots involved (although the idea that you can dump a bunch of dots and then just hide while everything dies seems pretty stupid), this could just be a way of focusing people into the 'preferred' mechanics.

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Maybe, by 'prioritizing' the non stealth aspects of rogues, fixing stealth becomes a lower priority. There's already a lot of complaints about Smoke Veil being buggy, especially with dots involved (although the idea that you can dump a bunch of dots and then just hide while everything dies seems pretty stupid), this could just be a way of focusing people into the 'preferred' mechanics.

This. I agree that the idea of DoTing the enemy and hiding is kind of silly. Everyone was freaking out about it, though. Now, those abilities have upfront damage bonuses to boot. So, even though I think backstab takes more work to succeed I think I understand this more.

 

Now DoTs arent breaking stealth, or not as much anyway. You get damage bonuses on all the Actives, plus sneak bonus, plus backstab bonus, and you can DoT and hide. That is a lot of bonus damage even if they shaved some off of backstab.

 

I'd have preferred DoTs kept breaking stealth, and rogues had to chose between stealth and DoTs. However, now everyone is going to ignore all upgrades without DoTs except maybe Confounding Blind, and that is only because CB can cause an enemy's deflection to hit the floor fast when combined with some focus fire. Everyone will get Arterial Strike, Pernicious Cloud, etc use them and stealth away. Before you could chose between burst and sustain damage. Now it might be muddled. I dunno. I see both sides of this, and am of two minds about it. I think it is a damned if you do, but damned if you dont scenario.

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Maybe, by 'prioritizing' the non stealth aspects of rogues, fixing stealth becomes a lower priority. There's already a lot of complaints about Smoke Veil being buggy, especially with dots involved (although the idea that you can dump a bunch of dots and then just hide while everything dies seems pretty stupid), this could just be a way of focusing people into the 'preferred' mechanics.

This. I agree that the idea of DoTing the enemy and hiding is kind of silly. Everyone was freaking out about it, though. Now, those abilities have upfront damage bonuses to boot. So, even though I think backstab takes more work to succeed I think I understand this more.

Now DoTs arent breaking stealth, or not as much anyway. You get damage bonuses on all the Actives, plus sneak bonus, plus backstab bonus, and you can DoT and hide. That is a lot of bonus damage even if they shaved some off of backstab.

I'd have preferred DoTs kept breaking stealth, and rogues had to chose between stealth and DoTs. However, now everyone is going to ignore all upgrades without DoTs except maybe Confounding Blind, and that is only because CB can cause an enemy's deflection to hit the floor fast when combined with some focus fire. Everyone will get Arterial Strike, Pernicious Cloud, etc use them and stealth away. Before you could chose between burst and sustain damage. Now it might be muddled. I dunno. I see both sides of this, and am of two minds about it. I think it is a damned if you do, but damned if you dont scenario.

I think they did this with some of the powerful solo multis in mind, forgetting how much it limits options for players who use a party and/or don't abuse stealth mechanics. I agree that stealth+DoT+stealth+walk away is still a use case for backstab, I just don't think that's how most people play (it's also not terribly fun).

 

Given that so many rogue abilities grant stealth+movement, it seems clear that the developers intended an in-combat stealth build path focused on backstabs. It was barely viable before given the management needed; now it's severely underpowered imo.

 

A backstab should be in devastating blow/soul annihilation territory – if it takes extra management or patience to pull off, it should feel satisfying when it hits.

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A great big blanket nerf. This is what appears they are doing for the upcoming patch according to the BETA

 

I mean yeah the game definitely needed some increased difficulty but i get the impression that they have not put much thought into what they are nerfing and have just rushed through it an nerfed anything and everything.

 

It looks like they have really rushed through it and nerfed anything that could have the slightest hint of helping you. What are we supposed to do? just be stuck with mediocre spells and abilities that do not much more then just auto attacking? 

 

They nerfed backstab for example from 150% to 100%. It was hardly worth it before when it was 150%. 

 

Im really happy with what they have done with the POTD changes with more enemies and there incresed stats. Surely they could have just balanced it this way instead of making all items and abilities mediocre?

 

And this also appears to be another erratic, rushed decision. Just like the rushed release with bugs and the difficulty issues.

 

I havent played the game extensively yet  becasue of these issues and now i think im going to wait six months when all rest of the game has been released. 

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Well, the problem with only scaling up encounter difficulty is that it does nothing to address balance between classes. 

 

The way I see it, the game currently exists in a state where some classes are are clearly better than others, but it doesn't ultimately matter what you pick because the game is so overwhelmingly easy.  This is bad because difficulty never feels earned. 

 

However, if difficulty is scaled up to be challenging even for the stronger classes, but the power disparity between classes is left unaddressed, then you simply make the weaker classes unplayable.  I think this is even worse.

 

So, the classes should be balanced.  Either buff the weaker classes or nerf the stronger classes, but I can't personally tell a difference between the two options, as either approach makes (hopefully) all classes feel more equally viable in terms of combat mechanics.  

 

If weaker classes are buffed, than the encounters need to be severely upscaled in difficulty.  If the stronger classes are nerfed, then the encounters need to be more modestly upscaled in difficulty.  At this point, one approach may be technically easier than the other (leave the experts to figure that out), but ultimately both approaches (if done successfully) should give us the same game.

 

The only caveat is, as you say, if classes are nerfed to the point where auto-attacking (with more passives behind it) is more viable than using active powers (with less passives behind it).  I think this is a legitimate concern, but nothing from the 1.1 BETA discussions seem to indicate anything so drastic.

 

Well, mostly anything - nerfing backstab to 100 % has me scratching my head too.

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kinda get the same impression with some things to be honest such as the whispers nerv...at the same time i think there are some things, items, skills etc. that need a buff not a nerv which should also be looked at...i hope the iteration will work out over time...it seems they just want to get things as fast out as possible - hopefully they will react to feedback from the beta patch.

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Hope they include a way to roll it back to the current version.

Just leave the current version in the Steam Beta's tab.

 

Sure I'll need to update eventually for DLC's, but game is working fine for me. Happy to not install the nerf patch at the moment.

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I wasn't a fan of Obsidian's mmo-style across the board balancing in the previous game. I prefer BG2 where you have powerful characters vs. powerful enemies. It feels more epic than using slow characters with tiny bonuses and a bunch of mediocre abilities. I don't mind most of the changes, but some seem poorly thought out. Was nerfing stuff that was already bad really necessary?

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It's not just a "nerf patch," there are several abilities that get buffed and/or have their costs reduced. Nerfs to backstab and cipher probably weren't necessary, but others definitely were and thus far appear to have been well-implemented. They managed to make Swift Flurry and Cleaving Stance no longer game breaking, for example, while still keeping them fun.

Also: it's not the final product. They specifically released it in beta first so that we could offer our feedback. People talk about patches so fatalistically, like they're permanent decrees coming down from on high or something - a lot of the suggestions being implemented in the patch were derived from these and other player forums. If there's a nerf you don't like, head over to the beta forum and make a case against it. I know I did.

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Maybe, by 'prioritizing' the non stealth aspects of rogues, fixing stealth becomes a lower priority. There's already a lot of complaints about Smoke Veil being buggy, especially with dots involved (although the idea that you can dump a bunch of dots and then just hide while everything dies seems pretty stupid), this could just be a way of focusing people into the 'preferred' mechanics.

This. I agree that the idea of DoTing the enemy and hiding is kind of silly. Everyone was freaking out about it, though. Now, those abilities have upfront damage bonuses to boot. So, even though I think backstab takes more work to succeed I think I understand this more.

Now DoTs arent breaking stealth, or not as much anyway. You get damage bonuses on all the Actives, plus sneak bonus, plus backstab bonus, and you can DoT and hide. That is a lot of bonus damage even if they shaved some off of backstab.

I'd have preferred DoTs kept breaking stealth, and rogues had to chose between stealth and DoTs. However, now everyone is going to ignore all upgrades without DoTs except maybe Confounding Blind, and that is only because CB can cause an enemy's deflection to hit the floor fast when combined with some focus fire. Everyone will get Arterial Strike, Pernicious Cloud, etc use them and stealth away. Before you could chose between burst and sustain damage. Now it might be muddled. I dunno. I see both sides of this, and am of two minds about it. I think it is a damned if you do, but damned if you dont scenario.

I think they did this with some of the powerful solo multis in mind, forgetting how much it limits options for players who use a party and/or don't abuse stealth mechanics. I agree that stealth+DoT+stealth+walk away is still a use case for backstab, I just don't think that's how most people play (it's also not terribly fun).

 

Given that so many rogue abilities grant stealth+movement, it seems clear that the developers intended an in-combat stealth build path focused on backstabs. It was barely viable before given the management needed; now it's severely underpowered imo.

 

A backstab should be in devastating blow/soul annihilation territory – if it takes extra management or patience to pull off, it should feel satisfying when it hits.

 

I guess that it can be combined with Soul Annihilation broke its neck. (My guess is the combination was the main reason Rogue/Cipher was the #1 multiclass combination (9% of all multiclassed characters).

the_ultimate.png
 

Done with Moon Godlike Wizard

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If anything they should prevent some class specific passives/abilities from stacking with passives/abilities from other classes rather than nerf the class itself. Because now you nerf not only the multiclass part, but also the pure class. Multi classing has no real penalties so it stands to reason that most people will pick this. This isn't really a good thing. In another post I stated that all abilties should be tied to powerlevel and scale as such much more than before. This will force people to think harder on multi classing. Also remove stacking on certain combinations and you're all set. But this is probably harder than nerfing a single ability so I do understand the choice. It is ultimately the wrong choice in my opinion, because in the end you'll be nerfing/buffing a whole bunch of abilities taking more time than a simple redesign of how multiclassing works.

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If anything they should prevent some class specific passives/abilities from stacking with passives/abilities from other classes rather than nerf the class itself. Because now you nerf not only the multiclass part, but also the pure class. Multi classing has no real penalties so it stands to reason that most people will pick this. This isn't really a good thing. In another post I stated that all abilties should be tied to powerlevel and scale as such much more than before. This will force people to think harder on multi classing. Also remove stacking on certain combinations and you're all set. But this is probably harder than nerfing a single ability so I do understand the choice. It is ultimately the wrong choice in my opinion, because in the end you'll be nerfing/buffing a whole bunch of abilities taking more time than a simple redesign of how multiclassing works.

While it's not strictly true that multiclassing has no real penalties (e.g. not getting access to the paladin near-immortality abilities Providence or Sacred Sacrifice), I agree that Power Level should affect basically everything.

No need to avoid stacking, though; these kinds of synergies are at the heart of multi-classing. Just make single-class abilities scale better (maybe even exponentially) at the highest levels.

Edited by Zoso der Goldene
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the_ultimate.png
 

Done with Moon Godlike Wizard

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The one thing that bother me with backstab, is how it encourage two handed instead of dagger/stilleto. Since the beta you see build with arquebuse and other two handed weapons. They should change backstab to have a different bonus based on the weapon used. The lowest bonus for 2 handed, mid for most one handed and a hight buff for dagger, stilleto (rapier? Pistols?). BAckstabbing in my opinion is about precision stike, aim at the weak spot of your enemy, something hard to do with big weapons.

 

About DOTs, most of them are pretty low dps divided in lot of abilities that don't self stack. Spamming ring of the bell with one handed don't increase the dot. I think we're far from apply dots, hide and wait for enemies to die. I would prefer to see them consolidate DOTS in 1-2 buff ability that apply a dot with all your attacks instead of 5-6 different active attacks & dots.

 

Another problem with rogue choices/upgrades it's often about DOT or affliction. But there is a bug how affliction work, and often they cancel each other (like persistant distraction). Death blow is one of the rare DPS upgrade in the rogue tree. They should allow to stack different affliction of the same attribut, or keep track of each affliction source so they don't cancel when one effect wear off.

example : you blind a target and you engage it with persistant distraction. The game keep track of both blind & distraction, but only blind is applied because it's stronger. If blind wear off, the distracted effect is used, but if you disangage when the enemy is still blinded, you remove the distraction (inactive) without touching the blind affliction (active).

 

About shadow veil, I didn't tested everything, but didn't noticed a dot that break it. But an ability/item that create an AOE field will break the invisibility. The incandiary grenade initial aoe remove the invisibility, but when the AOE end, the burn dot don't break it.

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The one thing that bother me with backstab, is how it encourage two handed instead of dagger/stilleto. Since the beta you see build with arquebuse and other two handed weapons. They should change backstab to have a different bonus based on the weapon used. The lowest bonus for 2 handed, mid for most one handed and a hight buff for dagger, stilleto (rapier? Pistols?). BAckstabbing in my opinion is about precision stike, aim at the weak spot of your enemy, something hard to do with big weapons.

 

About DOTs, most of them are pretty low dps divided in lot of abilities that don't self stack. Spamming ring of the bell with one handed don't increase the dot. I think we're far from apply dots, hide and wait for enemies to die. I would prefer to see them consolidate DOTS in 1-2 buff ability that apply a dot with all your attacks instead of 5-6 different active attacks & dots.

 

Another problem with rogue choices/upgrades it's often about DOT or affliction. But there is a bug how affliction work, and often they cancel each other (like persistant distraction). Death blow is one of the rare DPS upgrade in the rogue tree. They should allow to stack different affliction of the same attribut, or keep track of each affliction source so they don't cancel when one effect wear off.

example : you blind a target and you engage it with persistant distraction. The game keep track of both blind & distraction, but only blind is applied because it's stronger. If blind wear off, the distracted effect is used, but if you disangage when the enemy is still blinded, you remove the distraction (inactive) without touching the blind affliction (active).

 

About shadow veil, I didn't tested everything, but didn't noticed a dot that break it. But an ability/item that create an AOE field will break the invisibility. The incandiary grenade initial aoe remove the invisibility, but when the AOE end, the burn dot don't break it.

Your argument calls for a penetration bonus on backstab for lighter weapons.

the_ultimate.png
 

Done with Moon Godlike Wizard

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I'll be happy with anything that make backstabbing with light weapons (rogue 'signature' weapons) more valuable.

 

They buffed crippling strike & blinding strike but I hope ring the bell and whiterring strike will get some love too before final patch, because they are even less attractive now.

 

EDIT: my bad, ring the bell was actualy buffed too with +25%. Sap too get +25%. The cost was decreased?(2 to 1?) So only withering strike need some love (decrease cost to 2 or have +45-50% dmg instead of 25).

Edited by Takkik
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Out of curiosity, anyone attempt some Full Attack Back stabbing post patch?  Previously only the first weapon got the bonus... if they lowered it to 100% from 150%, and made both blades (Full attack) count for the bonus, we're actually up damage on dual wield backstabs...  which thematically seems right...

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Out of curiosity, anyone attempt some Full Attack Back stabbing post patch?  Previously only the first weapon got the bonus... if they lowered it to 100% from 150%, and made both blades (Full attack) count for the bonus, we're actually up damage on dual wield backstabs...  which thematically seems right...

Nope, just tested only first attack get the +100% bonus.

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I really hope they change it to work with dual wielding in the final 1.1 build, in which case the percentage reduction would make a lot of sense.

Yeah, but then single weapon style would be left at too much of a disadvantage – they even updated it to have a fairly high hit to crit conversion bonus now to appeal (I think) to assassins with their innate ability.

 

One solution would be to have backstab modified by subclass. "Assassinate" could deal double backstab damage (200% total) in addition to the extra crit chance, creating two main paths for rogue: single-weapon stealth/backstab (assassin) and dual-wield full attack/direct engagement (streetfighter) with trickster sitting somewhere in between.

Edited by Purudaya
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